[demaugustus]

Some complaints about the OWS movement are that, while they agree with the concept of OWS, they lack a clear message and leadership that will get the job done. Some even feel that the people protesting don't necessarily represent them in a professional manner. Well I'd like to introduce to you, Ladies and Gentlemen, a newly created lobbying/interest group called:
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So for those of you who believe this movement isn't going anywhere, think again. Apparently these people take it seriously enough to form this organization. The resumes of the leaders of this organization are something to be taken seriously. For those of you who think the OWS movement isn't going anywhere it's because they're just planting the seeds of what's going to happen. Like it or not.

[Tocsin]

Hmmm.... asking for donations to help get money out of politics.
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I know it's impossible to do anything without funding, but it just seems so circular....

sort of like "we have too much government... so vote for me."

There's nothing in the street Looks any different to me And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye And the parting on the left Is now the parting on the right And the beards have all grown longer overnight I'll tip my hat to the new constitution Take a bow for the new revolution Smile and grin at the change all around me Pick up my guitar and play Just like yesterday Then I'll get on my knees and pray We don't get fooled again

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[beaherobeaman]

I would argue that such a lack of leadership or a clear message is fitting. Almost everything to do with the interelationship between individuals, corporations and the government is so fucked up and seemingly hopeless. Pundits and those powerful enough to have a soapbox say "well I hear a lot of complaining but no solutions," when those same people have proposed and passed so many "solutions" that just blow up in the public's face.

People want health care reform, so we get a bill not only tailor made to corporate interests, but it creates a distracting slap fight for years. People massively support net neutrality, so we get something as egregiously anti-utilitarian as the PROTECT IP act. People want to feel safe from those who commit crimes against them, but then they see police beating people. We want corruption to end in politics, and our government repeals McCain-Feingold. We want to end the corruption of banks and financial institutions, so the government repeals Glass-Steigel.

How is this group supposed to find and entrust leadership when so many supposed "leaders" turn out to be corrupt hacks? How can OWS solidify a message when the different, yet similarly themed, messages are precisely why OWS appeals to so many people? When every "message" in this country is warped and twisted into something it was never meant to be in the first place, how can such a group propose solutions when such things happen or when all solutions carry with them the catch-22s of historical precedent?

To me, OWS is a protest against hopelessness and frustration...such hopelessness that no dreams, whether held by individuals or as a nation, are free from the asterisk "if The Man allows it to be."

[MrFox]

	Originally Posted by beaherobeaman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I would argue that such a lack of leadership or a clear message is fitting.

So would I, for the moment. It's working just fine as it is - with a 35% approval rating after just two months in existence, it is on a par either major party and better than every institution of government. In historical terms, this is an unprecedented achievement.

The movement will need an agenda the general population can accept as its own, but I'm not sold that it needs a formal organization, like the one cited in the OP. This is a new kind of politics, and probably requires a new kind of leadership structure. The group cited in the OP troubles me a little - it's too inside baseball IMO for OWS, and not really that impressive.

Better IMO if the two Harvard guys - Lessig and Ferguson - just developed a program and a plan and presented it. They can get the ink and the air time whenever they choose. Wish to hell these two would stop studying history for a while and start making it. IMO the opportunity is there for the taking.

[demaugustus]

	Originally Posted by MrFox To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Better IMO if the two Harvard guys - Lessig and Ferguson - just developed a program and a plan and presented it. They can get the ink and the air time whenever they choose. Wish to hell these two would stop studying history for a while and start making it. IMO the opportunity is there for the taking.

From the link I posted in the OP: "In the fall of 2011, we [United Republic] joined forces with Rootstrikers, a group founded by Harvard law professor Lawrence Lessig that shares the goal of ending the domination of Big Money over the political process."

[MrFox]

	Originally Posted by demvesalius To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	From the link I posted in the OP: "In the fall of 2011, we joined forces with Rootstrikers, a group founded by Harvard law professor Lawrence Lessig that shares the goal of ending the domination of Big Money over the political process."

Yes, but that doesn't change anything - just have the two academics do the work and propose the solution. Get that done.

The cited organization itself is as much a problem IMO as it is an asset. IMO the anti-establishment movements risk losing a lot their popular appeal once individuals or entities start speaking for them rather than to them.

[demaugustus]

	Originally Posted by MrFox To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yes, but that doesn't change anything - just have the two academics do the work and propose the solution. Get that done. The cited organization itself is as much a problem IMO as it is an asset. IMO the anti-establishment movements risk losing a lot their popular appeal once individuals or entities start speaking for them rather than to them.

So then perhaps it's important for OWS and United Republic to remain separate entities in order to keep this movement honest. Maybe they could serve as a checks and balances of sorts.

[MrFox]

	Originally Posted by demvesalius To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So then perhaps it's important for OWS and United Republic to remain separate entities in order to keep this movement honest.

There is no OWS entity - noone has authority to speak for it or make any decisions of any kind. It's just individual people independently coming together; IMO this is why it works so well; people aren't asked to follow anyone or anything except their own good judgment.

If this other entity wants to help, then it would be best to sponsor the two guys who have the names and the skills to create the solution and present it to the country.

[beaherobeaman]

Originally Posted by MrFox To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

There is no OWS entity - noone has authority to speak for it or make any decisions of any kind. It's just individual people independently coming together; IMO this is why it works so well; people aren't asked to follow anyone or anything except their own good judgment. If this other entity wants to help, then it would be best to sponsor the two guys who have the names and the skills to create the solution and present it to the country.

I think the popularity of OWS acts as a loud voice that says politicians better take reformers/activists like OP seriously.

[MrFox]

	Originally Posted by beaherobeaman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think the popularity of OWS acts as a loud voice that says politicians better take reformers/activists like OP seriously.

It does that and more - it already is taken seriously, and none of the existing elites have any idea what to do about it. They are not dumb enough to fail to appreciate the threat it poses, and appear to be "deer in the headlights" frozen. They tried some force in Oakland and NYC and that just made the movements stronger. Did you notice - they put away the shotguns?

Ripe fruit should be harvested.

[Fubudis]

Not to burst your bubble, but that website only has a little over 700 facebook "likes" and the website traffic itself is abysmal.


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Until this secondary movement gains more significant traction, its just another run-of-the-mill website trying to organize a political movement. There are thousands of these.

[beaherobeaman]

Originally Posted by Fubudis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Not to burst your bubble, but that website only has a little over 700 facebook "likes" and the website traffic itself is abysmal. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Until this secondary movement gains more significant traction, its just another run-of-the-mill website trying to organize a political movement. There are thousands of these.

Are you sure this was not intended to burst a bubble?

[demaugustus]

Originally Posted by Fubudis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Not to burst your bubble, but that website only has a little over 700 facebook "likes" and the website traffic itself is abysmal. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Until this secondary movement gains more significant traction, its just another run-of-the-mill website trying to organize a political movement. There are thousands of these.

The point of the thread, which you clearly missed, was to those people who claim OWS lacks a clear message and leadership that will get the job done; and for people who even feel that the people protesting don't necessarily represent them in a professional manner. Well here is a group for them. They should STFU and join this group and get down to business instead of standing on the sidelines complaining.

---------- Post added 11-20-2011 at 02:31 AM ----------

Besides of which, the page was just created, so to say that it is one of a thousand sites and only has 700 facebook likes is a bit ridiculous, especially when it's linked to Harvard law professor Lawrence Lessig and they haven't even finished hiring their team.

All of your posts about this topic reek with fear.

[IslandHead]

Originally Posted by demvesalius To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Some complaints about the OWS movement are that, while they agree with the concept of OWS, they lack a clear message and leadership that will get the job done. Some even feel that the people protesting don't necessarily represent them in a professional manner. Well I'd like to introduce to you, Ladies and Gentlemen, a newly created lobbying/interest group called: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. So for those of you who believe this movement isn't going anywhere, think again. Apparently these people take it seriously enough to form this organization. The resumes of the leaders of this organization are something to be taken seriously. For those of you who think the OWS movement isn't going anywhere it's because they're just planting the seeds of what's going to happen. Like it or not.

They have less than 800 likes on facebook. This is a real game changer....
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What needs to happen for any change to occur is for a third party to form with a charismatic leader who can win the independents and say disenfranchised GOP/Democrats to vote for this new party. Then this new party needs to get a minority into congress so that they can influence policy and have a non-GOP/Democrat laws passed. Only way to change things.

[demaugustus]

Originally Posted by IslandHead To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

They have less than 800 likes on facebook. This is a real game changer.... To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. What needs to happen for any change to occur is for a third party to form with a charismatic leader who can win the independents and say disenfranchised GOP/Democrats to vote for this new party. Then this new party needs to get a minority into congress so that they can influence policy and have a non-GOP/Democrat laws passed. Only way to change things.

See above. In my last post.

[IslandHead]

	Originally Posted by demvesalius To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	See above. In my last post.

You realizes jumping up and down in the cold in New York city does nothing? You realize having "leadership" won't change how effective jumping up and down in the cold in NY city is. It is not like in the civil rights movement when people boycotted stuff, and their protests actually made people want to change their actions. OWS is stupid. Those dumb asses should have voted in the midterm elections, and if they didn't they can't bitch and whine about anything.

[demaugustus]

Originally Posted by IslandHead To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You realizes jumping up and down in the cold in New York city does nothing? You realize having "leadership" won't change how effective jumping up and down in the cold in NY city is. It is not like in the civil rights movement when people boycotted stuff, and their protests actually made people want to change their actions. OWS is stupid. Those dumb asses should have voted in the midterm elections, and if they didn't they can't bitch and whine about anything.

The point of protesting at this time is to bring discussion to the issues and so far the "jumping up and down in NY City" and the rest of the world is accomplishing that task (what are we doing right now?). It's too early to tell if this is an equivalent of the Civil Rights movement, but if you have any historical perspective you'll find that the climate is ripe enough for this movement. Also, voting was worthless the last time I checked.

[MrFox]

	Originally Posted by IslandHead To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What needs to happen for any change to occur is for a third party to form with a charismatic leader who can win the independents and say disenfranchised GOP/Democrats to vote for this new party. Then this new party needs to get a minority into congress so that they can influence policy and have a non-GOP/Democrat laws passed. Only way to change things.

Sorry - no. Better to abandon the effort now than go down that road.

IMO this movement is one of those that's only going to get one bite of the apple - gotta get everything necessary in one shot. It's only weapon is the ability to eventually put millions in the streets, and it's only going to be able to do that kind of thing one time.

[Tocsin]

Ahhh... the joy of taking part in political action movements...


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[deckard]

	Originally Posted by demvesalius
	For those of you who think the OWS movement isn't going anywhere it's because they're just planting the seeds of what's going to happen. Like it or not.

Cynicism is a prime mover for people to get their act together. Don't be surprised if many of the critics turn out to be supporters in waiting.

Aside from this, the site is in Beta and no one reads anymore anyway, unless we count internet skimming as reading. The "pulpit" is still the quickest and most captivating form of getting a message out there.

Also, the time for planting seeds was 4+ years ago... A little slow coming. But then if the media's suspicions are correct about where this base comes from, it could very well be Obama-esque people, finally, begrudgingly admitting disillusionment over their party. Yet, not putting the appropriate pieces together to find out that what they truly believe is yet to be realized fiscal conservatism. Sometimes it takes a while to admit you're wrong. It can be frustrating, hence the passionate protests pointing blame at anyone but themselves.

[IslandHead]

	Originally Posted by MrFox To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Sorry - no. Better to abandon the effort now than go down that road. IMO this movement is one of those that's only going to get one bite of the apple - gotta get everything necessary in one shot. It's only weapon is the ability to eventually put millions in the streets, and it's only going to be able to do that kind of thing one time.

No one is going to listent to a bunch of bums jumping up and down. They have nothing to bargain with. If they want to make change they can do it through government, because it is a democracy anyone can run. If they aren't willing to do that then they don't deserve what they want.

[beaherobeaman]

	Originally Posted by IslandHead To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What needs to happen for any change to occur is for a third party to form with a charismatic leader who can win the independents and say disenfranchised GOP/Democrats to vote for this new party. Then this new party needs to get a minority into congress so that they can influence policy and have a non-GOP/Democrat laws passed. Only way to change things.

	Originally Posted by IslandHead To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	OWS is stupid. Those dumb asses should have voted in the midterm elections, and if they didn't they can't bitch and whine about anything.

Yes. Voting for change worked so well in the last election.

[IslandHead]

	Originally Posted by beaherobeaman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yes. Voting for change worked so well in the last election.

So you trust the people that deregulated Wall Street to listen to the OCW movement? They won't. Why listen to a bunch of poor, unemployed people jumping up and down in the cold? They only people gaining anything from OWS is Warner Bros, sales of V for Vendetta masks must be through the roof! What needs to change are the laws. That won't happen until the people in the senate and congress are replaced with ones that better represent the will of the people. That will only happen if 1) Different people run for office 2) people vote for theses new officials. Unless of course you want to over through the government...

These people won't listen to reason, they play political chicken (
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), so what in earth makes you think they will listen to you or OWS? They won't!

How will OWS change anything? They couldn't even shut down trading for one day. They have no power and no voice, but they do have a vote. They need to use that...

[beaherobeaman]

	Originally Posted by IslandHead To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No one is going to listent to a bunch of bums jumping up and down. They have nothing to bargain with. If they want to make change they can do it through government, because it is a democracy anyone can run. If they aren't willing to do that then they don't deserve what they want.

We live in a republic, not a democracy.

"Section 4 - Republican government

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence."

It's called "The Constitution." Specifically Article 4, Section 4 quoted here, but the entire setup of government is designed as a republic. I would assume you're American, because only an American wouldn't know the type of fucking government we've had since we became country.

And not everyone can run. Officially, no one under 35 years old can run.

And the focus on "who can run" is useless. You ought to qualify the chance of becoming president with "run with a viable chance of winning." Unofficially (and I say this only because it is not in the Constitution) no one who doesn't have sack loads of money can run. People who have a single picture of them smoking a blunt can't run. No one who isn't a Republican or Democrat can run because of rules imposed after Perot scared the shit out of them in '92.

---------- Post added 11-19-2011 at 02:42 PM ----------

Originally Posted by IslandHead To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

So you trust the people that deregulated Wall Street to listen to the OCW movement? They won't. These people won't listen to reason, they play political chicken so what in earth makes you think they will listen to you or OWS? They won't! How will OWS change anything? They couldn't even shut down trading for one day. They have no power and no voice, but they do have a vote. They need to use that...

I think you are arguing precisely my point. They are not listening, so people need to be louder.

The people voted in 2008 for a lot of things when they chose Barack Obama. I am not going to even list the campaign promises he made then completely failed to uphold because it would just be redundant. So if your solution is just to vote, what do we vote for? Candidates who say they are different? I heard a candidate who seemed to be different for 14 fucking months and look what we got. You scream third party third party and guess what, you got one; it's called the Tea Party, and it's just as corrupt as any other.

What the fuck has given you so much faith in the American system? You berate and criticize and then you're like "WELL LET'S JUST GO BACK TO THE BOOTHS AND CHANGE SOME STUFF!"

Get a clue, man.

[IslandHead]

I'm not an American...

	Originally Posted by beaherobeaman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No one who isn't a Republican or Democrat can run because of rules imposed after Perot scared the shit out of them in '92.

There were people running in 2008 who weren't GOP or Democrat.

My point still stands that in America you have some say in who the elected officials are, and if you want to change regulations you can put time and energy into the party or official that will represent you and bring change. But watching the daily show, complaining about government corruption, and jumping up and down in a park in NYC for 2 months does nothing. If you complain to the GOP and Democrats to change your problems nothing will happen. You need to change who is in power, this can be done with a vote.

I think you are arguing precisely my point. They are not listening, so people need to be louder. The people voted in 2008 for a lot of things when they chose Barack Obama. I am not going to even list the campaign promises he made then completely failed to uphold because it would just be redundant. So if your solution is just to vote, what do we vote for? Candidates who say they are different? I heard a candidate who seemed to be different for 14 fucking months and look what we got. You scream third party third party and guess what, you got one; it's called the Tea Party, and it's just as corrupt as any other. What the fuck has given you so much faith in the American system? You berate and criticize and then you're like "WELL LET'S JUST GO BACK TO THE BOOTHS AND CHANGE SOME STUFF!"

The Tea Party is not a party. It is conservative movement of mostly GOP members.
A different party would be as follows

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Pretending that elections are binary options of GOP or Democrat makes the voting futile, the introduction of a third party would introduce more accountability.

Obama isn't doing that bad on his promises either

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