[Antares]

Say you were a parent (with the normal parental biological imperative to love offspring), and your child is utterly depraved and unloveable in every sense of the word. Can you conceive ceasing to love it? Or you could turn the example around and say your mother was Rosemary West, an insane, abusive and sociopathic serial killer. Would you stop loving her, or does the fact that you're her offspring mean there is still some sort of love for her?

[mastermind23]

Why love someone who doesn't deserve it?

[themuzicman]

Because it's your kid.

[Seablue]

	Originally Posted by Antares To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Say you were a parent (with the normal parental biological imperative to love offspring), and your child is utterly depraved and unloveable in every sense of the word. Can you conceive ceasing to love it?

Hard to imagine since I have no child, but not really. I could dislike it but there would be another kind of love that would never go away, I think.

As a side note, I think "depraved" could break my heart, but it's "idiotic/superficial" that would maybe be the hardest for me to accept.

	Originally Posted by Antares To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Or you could turn the example around and say your mother was Rosemary West, an insane, abusive and sociopathic serial killer. Would you stop loving her, or does the fact that you're her offspring mean there is still some sort of love for her?

I think we're bound to crave the love of our parents, no matter what. If we're lucky they'll be deserving of our love and love us back. If we're very unlucky, we'll have to learn to ignore our need of being loved by them.

So yes, I think that you could hate your mother/father but there would still be some sort of love left, of rather, a desire to be able to love them...

[plotthickens]

Stopped loving my Dad the last time he hit me. Some things are inculcated by society (religion, heteronormativity, current morals, family bonds, etc.,) and we can outgrow them if we choose.

[changos]

1. You will find lots of examples here of people who say they don't love or can't stand their parents (and they are not killers or anything like that).
2. According to educative physicology and other things... (+) there is a lot of things of our behaviour depending on our first 8 years of life, that programming will be hard to overcome. That's why some love their abusive parents and can't walk away from the problem.
3. Most people talk about love as if it was the same thing for everyone, but love is a concept, an attitude, a decision and something you learn to do think and feel in some way (trained to do). A lot of people will talk about love even if their relationship is filled with abuse, just like love had something to do with how much you can stand, tolerate and overcome.

From several posts that I've read, I believe some lack the understanding of challenges, education, correction and "democracy", then missjudge their parents and begin to walk away from them when they were doing the right thing. I can't quote (wont) because the tendency is quite something..... seems to me some are just spoiled kids. A lot of great people come from homes with harder life than the ones most complain about here. Let's see how it goes when they have children on their own...


(+) At times it becomes stupid to mention something here because many don't read, some won't research and some just take the time to say "where did you read that?", guess you are familiar with that after seing your post count.

[mastermind23]

	Because it's your kid.

Explain this so it actually makes logical sense.

[Distance]

I don't love my parents.

Can't imagine not loving my son but if he was a monster, I wouldn't rule out the possibility.

[Vermillion]

	Originally Posted by themuzicman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Because it's your kid.

What if your kid chained you up in the basement and forcibly sodomized you for years with the plastic Darth Maul light saber you bought him for Christmas? Would you still love him/her then?

[Still Standing]

Love is complicated. Love is often unhealthy. I go by the saying that if you don't love yourself first, you can't love others, and believe that all these other feelings often confused with love should be called something else.

Many people who don't love themselves choose to have children who, at least for the first few years of their life, will accept them and "love" them unconditionally. And as the kids grow older, these parents who don't love themselves will end up expecting to be loved and respected by their kids because of all the sacrifices that they're making for them, not because they consider themselves inherently worthy of love.

And this is where the idea of owing love to another person comes in. But I don't buy it, not anymore. I didn't choose to be born and didn't choose my parents and the "relational climate" I was brought up in. I don't owe love to a person who needed me for validation rather than truly loved me. Actually, love cannot be owed to anyone -- only freely given.

[Vulture]

my definition of love is "knowledge." the more i know someone the more i feel "love" for them. the same for not proper nouns...

i have felt love for people that i know very well, that i hate. you can both love and get the emotional response of hatred for a person.

in the OP's scenario, i would invariably love the child as i would know them intimately, but would also be capable of feeling hatred for them.

[VagrantChord]

Yes, biologically speaking, they were my parents, but I found different reasons for not loving either one of them. Just because of biology, that doesn't merit me loving them.

[changos]

Originally Posted by Still Standing To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Love is complicated. Love is often unhealthy. I go by the saying that if you don't love yourself first, you can't love others, and believe that all these other feelings often confused with love should be called something else. Many people who don't love themselves choose to have children who, at least for the first few years of their life, will accept them and "love" them unconditionally. And as the kids grow older, these parents who don't love themselves will end up expecting to be loved and respected by their kids because of all the sacrifices that they're making for them, not because they consider themselves inherently worthy of love. And this is where the idea of owing love to another person comes in. But I don't buy it, not anymore. I didn't choose to be born and didn't choose my parents and the "relational climate" I was brought up in. I don't owe love to a person who needed me for validation rather than truly loved me. Actually, love cannot be owed to anyone -- only freely given.

Very good points.
Some people have kids just as they go after pets: they will love them because they can't see who or what they really are, because "kids are programmed to love their parents, right?", so instead of earning love they get into the circumstances where others will not have a chance, other than love them... but people grow up and often see the faults on the system.

The most extraordinary thing to find regarding this matter is when people some kind of problematic people have kids that look like or act like themselves and then the problems begin, they can't stand their own reflection, or the reflection of the husband-wife, so they cannot love them, in fact they treat them badly.

Your last words deserve applauses, sadly as you say most of love relationships are unhealthy, I'm officially amazed by the thigns I've been reading, most people just don't want-can't stand being alone and understand that love it's the legalization of many abuses. Things should be called by their names first.

[JustMel]

	Originally Posted by changos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	"kids are programmed to love their parents, right?",

I raise my children that they don'thave to love me but they will show me respect in my home where I pay the bills and provide for them. Almost every parent will hear "I hate you" at some point from one of their children. My typical response is "good, I must be doing something right".

Every one of them that's out of the house and on their own still comes home regularly and they all call when they have a problem and need to talk. They call to BS sometimes but they usually talk to the husband because I don't do small talk on the phone.

I haven't always loved my parents, with good reason. I've rebuilt a relationship with my mother and I can say I love her now but there were quite a few years that I honestly didn't.

I don't believe your children owe you love because you birthed them or adopted them or whatever. I believe that you have to earn their love and respect just like anyone else.

[Shadizar]

Beat the ever loving piss outta the little shit; then say it's for their own good, because you love them.

[themuzicman]

	Originally Posted by mastermind23 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Explain this so it actually makes logical sense.

Experience > logic

[Distance]

The old tradition of loving your parents regardless of their actions, is nothing but self-serving garbage for the parents.

[themuzicman]

	Originally Posted by VagrantChord To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yes, biologically speaking, they were my parents, but I found different reasons for not loving either one of them. Just because of biology, that doesn't merit me loving them.

Good question. I think a lot of parents would believe that they failed as parents.

[Still Standing]

	Originally Posted by themuzicman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Good question. I think a lot of parents would believe that they failed as parents.

Not everybody is fit to be a parent, so yes, parental failure will inevitably happen. But there may also be cases where they've got nothing to do with it, like when a kid develops schizophrenia or some developmental disorder of biological origin.

[Vhanon]

For the purpose of this thread, let's say love is willingness to help and support.

As a parent, a children are my life-breathing projects, they never asked to live, and I'm responsible for their happiness in the long run. I cannot stop to want to help them, it would be like to admit a guilt and/or a failure. Tough, the way I help them may not look like inspired by love.

As a son, my happiness and my love depend on what my parents taught me. I can have gold and care but want more and never feel the will to help, I can have hunger and tears but can accept and be helpful. If I realize my parents did their best, I can be grateful and ready to help, if I realize I've been ill-threated I can run away and let them face their problems on their own.

	Originally Posted by Still Standing To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't owe love to a person who needed me for validation rather than truly loved me. Actually, love cannot be owed to anyone -- only freely given.

I agree

[VagrantChord]

	Originally Posted by Shadizar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Beat the ever loving piss outta the little shit; then say it's for their own good, because you love them.

They tried that with me. It only made me more defiant. It made for good training for when I had to fight back later in life.

Have you ever seen an INTJ when he is really mad? You don't want to be on the receiving end of that equation.

[beaherobeaman]

I not only believe I' capable of not loving my offspring, I would venture to say I have the capacity to hate them as well. I would probably reserve the idea of "hating them" until after they were 20 or so, because my god hormones, puberty, High School, and the media (list not exhaustive) sure do fuck someone up in ways not relevant to "real life," but if by that age if they resemble a member of society I would hate anyway, I wouldn't put it past me to be resentful towards my kin.

There is this HS dropout (he's 22) who hangs outside the library where I work. He has a hat emblazoned with a marijuana leaf, greasy hair down to his ass, smells like old balls and always asks me for a cigarette even though I never give him one. He wears black UFO pants and a puffed out sweater. When he is with his friends, also loitering degenerates, he openly harasses female students walking in and out of the library. Whenever I see him, I actually ask myself "if this was my son, what the fuck would I do?"

The answer is, I would hate him for being such a fucking loser even though I spent 20 years of my life guaranteeing that he is not only able to continue breathing, but grab the asses of innocent women because he has no shame. Is this the failure of my parenting? Could be, but that just acts to make me hate myself, not lessen how much I hate him.

[VagrantChord]

	Originally Posted by themuzicman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Good question. I think a lot of parents would believe that they failed as parents.

In my case, they accused me of being a failure and not worth the effort to birth me because I didn't live up to their expectations of me. It didn't matter that I had my own expectations. It took me a while before I restored my self-esteem, but it's amazing what residual defiance can do for you. It's a good thing one of the INTJ traits is an inherent survival mechanism.

[changos]

	Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't believe your children owe you love because you birthed them or adopted them or whatever. I believe that you have to earn their love and respect just like anyone else.

I agree with that. I believe that love relates to respect in the way that both can be earned or lost. Even the christians with their own beliefs forget that they preach a loving God that asks people to earn heaven.

Originally Posted by Vhanon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

As a parent, a children are my life-breathing projects, they never asked to live, and I'm responsible for their happiness in the long run. I cannot stop to want to help them, it would be like to admit a guilt and/or a failure. Tough, the way I help them may not look like inspired by love. As a son, my happiness and my love depend on what my parents taught me. I can have gold and care but want more and never feel the will to help, I can have hunger and tears but can accept and be helpful. If I realize my parents did their best, I can be grateful and ready to help, if I realize I've been ill-threated I can run away and let them face their problems on their own. I agree

Wise words, the bold ones are something a lot of parents should keep in mind.



There is a lot to say about this matter, FLEA from Red Hot Chilli Peppers said an amazing thing on the documentary about how rockers raise their kids. He mentioned something like "people say you give life to your kids but in my case it was the opposite, they were born and they are the ones who bring life to me". This makes me think (in fact, remember) some cases where some broken personalities found a very sweet surprise on how their attitudes changed when they had their kids.

Have a friend who suffered a lot being a kid, his parents were kinda mean and he used to say "I will bring kids to life just to make them suffer like I did". He is a nice guy and only mentioned this words to the ones he really trusted. As he got old, worked and faced life on his own he found out IN HIS CASE, that his parents were not mean, they just did the best they knew (and for many things they didn't knew better, they were very poor and ignorant). Now my friend owns an empire, very wealthy and he is kind with his parents (no regrets) as he understand the limitations they had (inside of them). And about the kids... hes got two now and he is very loving, he says "my heart changed so much when I had my first one, I can't never imagine myself doing harm to them, or letting someone else harming them".



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	OP: Say you were a parent (with the normal parental biological imperative to love offspring), and your child is utterly depraved and unloveable in every sense of the word. Can you conceive ceasing to love it?

Life has its own irony, I just remembered the title of a book called "
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
" which means something like "Love your parents when they can't no longer love you". This is a situation most of us will face.

The book talks about how aging can bring up some disorders that turn a normal person into a pain in the ass. A lot of people abandon them because they can't relate or get along with them, elders might become like kids and in some cases become angry, abusive, unkind, etc. And it becomes difficult to live and support them. Some say "they still love them" but they don't take care of them. The op stats a very possible situation, and this one occurs even more often and comes out of nowhere (not that they did something bad).

[themuzicman]

	Originally Posted by Still Standing To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Not everybody is fit to be a parent, so yes, parental failure will inevitably happen. But there may also be cases where they've got nothing to do with it, like when a kid develops schizophrenia or some developmental disorder of biological origin.

I wasn't talking factual information, but rather how the parent would likely react to the situation provided.