[Autumnleaf]

I've always wondered about this quote so I figured I'd ask where the smartest people I know seem to congregate.

"Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."---- Woodrow Wilson

[Ghostwheel]

The banking/finance oligarchs: Morgan, Rockerfeller, Rothschild, Warburg.

These guys later went on to create "the Monster from Jekyll Island," that is, our privately owned central bank, the Federal Reserve.

The Fed is more highly regulated now than when it was first formed in December, 1913, however, though it is still a private corporation and not truly a federal agency. Ergo, Congress needed a special bill to audit it.

[LaoTzu]

I suspect something like this:

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Which actually reminds me of
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Or the other way, where He meant 'The People' united in common cause.
(in its best form, represented by an elected Government who acts in their interests, rather than the interests of the elite)

[Distance]

He's talking about the 1% shutting out the rest from having any possibility of challenging their dominant position through exclusive contracts, social and business ostracism.

[Tristan]

The comment was current for 1918, and ironic today. Firstly, the business elite in this country now condemn rabble precisely because they are stupid and don't know what's good for them. Far from being terrified into silence by some awesome hidden power, the business elite flock to government and the media with absolute convictions and a desire to spread them. Secondly, the business elite, particularly among the financials in Wall Street and Chicago, are very heavily Democrat and supply the government's administrative personnel. The Obama administration, the congressional offices, and the long-term departmental positions are loaded with managers from the financials.

[LaoTzu]

	Originally Posted by Tristan To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The Obama administration, the congressional offices, and the long-term departmental positions are loaded with managers from the financials.

This is true, and a reason why the Left doesn't trust Obama. (They still trust the GOP less).

[Ghostwheel]

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“Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international moneylenders. The bankers want it that way. We recognize in a hazy sort of way that the Rothschilds and the Warburgs of Europe and the houses of J. P. Morgan, Kuhn, Loeb and Company, Schiff, Lehman and Rockefeller possess and control vast wealth. How they acquire this vast financial power and employ it is a mystery to most of us.

"International bankers make money by extending credit to governments. The greater the debt of the political state, the larger the interest returned to the lenders. The national banks of Europe are actually owned and controlled by private interests.”

—
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: The Personal and Political Memoirs of United States Senator Barry M. Goldwater, 1979.

[Autumnleaf]

Originally Posted by Ghostwheel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/JohnPierpontMorgan.png/175px-JohnPierpontMorgan.png To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. “Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international moneylenders. The bankers want it that way. We recognize in a hazy sort of way that the Rothschilds and the Warburgs of Europe and the houses of J. P. Morgan, Kuhn, Loeb and Company, Schiff, Lehman and Rockefeller possess and control vast wealth. How they acquire this vast financial power and employ if is a mystery to most of us. "International bankers make money by extending credit to governments. The greater the debt of the political state, the larger the interest returned to the lenders. The national banks of Europe are actually owned and controlled by private interests.” — To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. : The Personal and Political Memoirs of United States Senator Barry M. Goldwater, 1979.

Why are the governments of the world not arresting these people for specious or valid reasons and dividing up their wealth?

[Ghostwheel]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why are the governments of the world not arresting these people for specious or valid reasons and dividing up their wealth?

If you can figure out that one and get decisive action on it, you deserve a seat at the table among the great benefactors of mankind.

Meanwhile, one answer to the banking problem has emerged in the unlikeliest of places: North Dakota. That is, a state bank that reinvests the interest it receives on loans back into the community:
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And these, too, should answer a good deal of your curiosity on this issue:
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and
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.

[Autumnleaf]

	Originally Posted by Ghostwheel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If you can figure out that one and get decisive action on it, you deserve a seat at the table among the great benefactors of mankind.

I was just thinking of the Knights Templar. They made lots of money and people liked them and one day they all got arrested and their treasure was confiscated. Instead of that happening with central bankers today we have countries like Greece and the US going into hawk to get more fiat currency. WTF?

[Ghostwheel]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I was just thinking of the Knights Templar. They made lots of money and people liked them and one day they all got arrested and their treasure was confiscated. Instead of that happening with central bankers today we have countries like Greece and the US going into hawk to get more fiat currency. WTF?

I highly recommend those two videos,
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and
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Here's an interesting snippet on how the system works as described by insider Bernard Lietaer:

SARAH : So you would say that the design of money is actually at the root of much else that happens, or doesn't happen, in society? BERNARD : That's right. While economic textbooks claim that people and corporations are competing for markets and resources, I claim that in reality they are competing for money - using markets and resources to do so. So designing new money systems really amounts to redesigning the target that orients much human effort. Furthermore, I believe that greed and competition are not a result of immutable human temperament; I have come to the conclusion that greed and fear of scarcity are in fact being continuously created and amplified as a direct result of the kind of money we are using. For example, we can produce more than enough food to feed everybody, and there is definitely enough work for everybody in the world, but there is clearly not enough money to pay for it all. The scarcity is in our national currencies. In fact, the job of central banks is to create and maintain that currency scarcity. The direct consequence is that we have to fight with each other in order to survive. Money is created when banks lend it into existence (see article by Thomas Greco on page 19). When a bank provides you with a $100,000 mortgage, it creates only the principal, which you spend and which then circulates in the economy. The bank expects you to pay back $200,000 over the next 20 years, but it doesn't create the second $100,000 - the interest. Instead, the bank sends you out into the tough world to battle against everybody else to bring back the second $100,000. SARAH : So some people have to lose in order for others to win? Some have to default on their loan in order for others to get the money needed to pay off that interest? BERNARD : That's right. All the banks are doing the same thing when they lend money into existence. That is why the decisions made by central banks, like the Federal Reserve in the US, are so important - increased interest costs automatically determine a larger proportion of necessary bankruptcies. So when the bank verifies your "creditworthiness," it is really checking whether you are capable of competing and winning against other players - able to extract the second $100,000 that was never created. And if you fail in that game, you lose your house or whatever other collateral you had to put up. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[deckard]

Another documentary "The Prize" based on the novel comes to mind and the myth that these men had much to fear is summarily put to death by the facts of the case. They had nothing to fear, but rather were feared. People bled and died for more than just the inhumane symptoms which resulted from the world's lust and need for controlling oil. It has yet to really change.

[Autumnleaf]

	Originally Posted by deckard To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Another documentary "The Prize" based on the novel comes to mind and the myth that these men had much to fear is summarily put to death by the facts of the case. They had nothing to fear, but rather were feared. People bled and died for more than just the inhumane symptoms which resulted from the world's lust and need for controlling oil. It has yet to really change.

Shouldn't something be done about this kind of thing? It doesn't have to be this way. We have to drop this kind of usury in order for society to move on. I'm not for communism. I think this is something else.

[cymaticglove]

I always thought the last president of the United States was JFK..The one who stood up against them and look what happened.

[deckard]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Shouldn't something be done about this kind of thing? It doesn't have to be this way. We have to drop this kind of usury in order for society to move on. I'm not for communism. I think this is something else.

What could be done?

A mass boycott of fossil fuels? Impossible. Then consider where plastics come from. Just count how much plastic you have in the room you're now sitting in starting with the computers we're using to type on this message board.

The usury has a long history though, and I think that documentary is worth a watch to see how it evolved and who the power players became throughout the many years. Gaddafi was the first to seize control over the oil, away from American contracts. The Russian side of it is covered as well. The Saudis (even though media will tell people Israel is our most important ally in that region) hold the largest corporation in the world because of it.

Dependency on fossil fuels, from a purely technological approach is extremely easy to end. Ending the power of those who would stand to lose control over the most "prized" resource is near impossible. You'd almost have to form an underground army of entrepreneurs who risk pissing off the most powerful people in the world, not to mention the countless others who benefit from keeping the pipe lines flowing. People who have and do kill, to keep the status quo without batting an eye.

[Ghostwheel]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Shouldn't something be done about this kind of thing? It doesn't have to be this way. We have to drop this kind of usury in order for society to move on. I'm not for communism. I think this is something else.

Nor is communism necessary. There are plenty of ideas for alternate currencies out there.

One idea is for the government to simply print, interest free, one dollar for every dollar of goods and services in the economy. It needn't be a perfect fit so long as it avoids the extremes of way too much and way too little.

State and city owned banks are another. The interest on the loans is reinvested back into the community either in lieu of, or in addition to, taxes.

For those that still want to see private banks, if they were allowed to exist, they would not be able to create money via fractional reserve, but just lend out what they have on deposit.

Some people want a return to the gold standard. I'm against that personally, as I think this will just invite wealthy corporations and individuals to horde massive amounts of it. I'm not sure there's enough gold in the world to appropriately value today's economy either. But individuals for the gold standard have their own arguments that aren't difficult to find.

The point is, there are many options available.

The field of alternate currency studies is huge. One good book on this is
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by Ellen Brown.

[Autumnleaf]

Originally Posted by Ghostwheel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Nor is communism necessary. There are plenty of ideas for alternate currencies out there. One idea is for the government to simply print, interest free, one dollar for every dollar of goods and services in the economy. It needn't be a perfect fit so long as it avoids the extremes of way too much and way too little. State and city owned banks are another. The interest on the loans is reinvested back into the community either in lieu of, or in addition, to taxes. For those that still want to see private banks, if they were allowed to exist, they would not be able to create money via fractional reserve, but just lend out what they have on deposit. The field of alternate currency studies is huge. One good book on this is To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. by Ellen Brown.

Its all well and fine to study alternatives but I think we know that the laws probably have to change before anything useful happens. Or maybe people need to rise up.

What would have to happen for central banks to lose their monopoly on cheap money?

[Ghostwheel]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Its all well and fine to study alternatives but I think we know that the laws probably have to change before anything useful happens. Or maybe people need to rise up.

They're starting to. At least some are. Whether anything comes of it, we'll see.

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What would have to happen for central banks to lose their monopoly on cheap money?

Perhaps ... a massive economic crisis worse than the present one such that an anti-oligarchy president has massive public support to institute massive reforms?

Perhaps ... the breakup of the nation into separate regions, perhaps four or five different ones, which each choosing their own monetary system?

I don't see monetary reform (or electoral reform, for that matter) happening peaceably, if that's what you mean.

Sorry, I'm not very optimistic about these things. Others have more positive hopes for reform.

[MrFox]

	Originally Posted by deckard To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What could be done? You'd almost have to form an underground army of entrepreneurs who risk pissing off the most powerful people in the world, not to mention the countless others who benefit from keeping the pipe lines flowing. People who have and do kill, to keep the status quo without batting an eye.

(emphasis added)

Don't get you, Deckard, or Warrior or Fubudis or the others. On another thread you're twisting yourselves into rhetorical pretzels to defend the use of deadly force against admirably peaceful protesters - people who are protesting the very status quo that you seem to condemn on this thread. What gives?

So what if OWS/OccOak have no fully formed agenda for the future? They and the Tea Party have one overriding goal in common - destruction of the corrupt status quo. That's enough IMO for the moment. It doesn't matter what comes after that - nothing changes for the better (or the worse) until that first task is accomplished.

IMO never been a time in history since the Industrial Revolution where there is a more open minded willingness among the general populations of several countries to this idea. Cryin' shame to squander it on trivial arguments among forces that ought to be standing united against the common foe. Wrong about that, am I?

[deckard]

	Originally Posted by MrFox To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	(emphasis added) Don't get you, Deckard, or Warrior or Fubudis or the others. On another thread you're twisting yourselves into rhetorical pretzels to defend the use of deadly force against admirably peaceful protesters - people who are protesting the very status quo that you seem to condemn on this thread. What gives?

You're comparing mob mentality with pragmatic solutions. I offered up an underground group of entrepreneurs to usurp the powers that be. Doing it out in the open is a waste of time and showing the "enemy" you haven't the wherewithal to effectively organize any sort of real threat to their power. Of course then, neither do I. All I have are suggestions for solutions. But the energy or connections to make them happen? Forget about it. It's a pipe dream at best and OWS wouldn't care to listen anyway. They're not unified and go in a hundred different directions.

Chaos hasn't a chance against a carefully crafted, well oiled, well backed machine. Do the same from the ground up and if the right people got together you might be able to accomplish in decades, what took these power brokers a century to refine.

[MrFox]

	Originally Posted by deckard To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You're comparing mob mentality with pragmatic solutions. *** Chaos hasn't a chance against a carefully crafted, well oiled, well backed machine.

Tell that to the veterans of The Arab Spring.

[deckard]

	Originally Posted by MrFox To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Tell that to the veterans of The Arab Spring.

I don't live there and so could give a crap. Neither am I affiliated with the oil tycoons who created their misfortune. I'd much rather they took responsibility for allowing themselves to be made a whore by those select few and deal with it by effectively refusing their involvement in their affairs. Of course, this would require them to educate themselves on how to utilize their own resources without foreign aid. You know, personal pride. Which I'm sure a good portion of them have but the media spins the fear of more radical Muslims taking control, when it could just as well be intelligent engineers. In the end, it's up to them... not us. And unless you have your head in the sand, you do realize that the regimes they've been forced to liberate themselves from were predominately backed by U.S. oil interests. That it won't be more of the same, would require me to be naively hopeful that a liberal president doesn't kowtow to the very same influence as the son of an oil man.

[JTG]

	Originally Posted by LaoTzu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	He meant 'The People' united in common cause.

I think this is it. There's a disdain for the common man among elite circles that's rarely stated outright. At least not in places where the words could see the light of day.

The rich need the poor, in a way that doesn't work in reverse. This is why they work so hard to preserve the notion that they provide a great benefit to the nation in a way that isn't easily replaced. They market themselves because they fear what would happen if people realized one day that a rich man is just a man with a lot of money

[MrFox]

Originally Posted by deckard To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Neither am I affiliated with the oil tycoons who created their misfortune. *** And unless you have your head in the sand, you do realize that the regimes they've been forced to liberate themselves from were predominately backed by U.S. oil interests. That it won't be more of the same, would require me to be naively hopeful that a liberal president doesn't kowtow to the very same influence as the son of an oil man.

Well, I am/was affiliated with the oil bunch, so I'm as well aware as you are of the financial/industrial forces that conspire to maintain the status quo. I too have no remaining faith whatsoever in the existing political structures and personalities to make any meaningful changes that don't serve their interests above all others. That's why OWS/Tea Party/OccOak get my support, and IMO ought to get yours too - there's no alternative route to a better society.

[deckard]

Originally Posted by MrFox To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Well, I am/was affiliated with the oil bunch, so I'm as well aware as you are of the financial/industrial forces that conspire to maintain the status quo. I too have no remaining faith whatsoever in the existing political structures and personalities to make any meaningful changes that don't serve their interests above all others. That's why OWS/Tea Party/OccOak get my support, and IMO ought to get yours too - there's no alternative route to a better society.

You honestly don't see it as a blaring, ineffectual trumpet in the short term? I guess that may be where we differ. I project a future dissipation of this passion because it isn't rooted in anything tangible for what is needed in the immediate. Almost like a too little, too late effort in my estimation. Not to mention it has yet to agree on the approach.

The cynicism I hold has to do with protesters of the past. To counter culture people of the past. They're doing the exact same thing and I would not be surprised if the following generations simply become indoctrinated into the very same status quo because it follows the path of least resistance. Much like those who came before. It's a laughable effort, however offensive that might be to those out there who really think they're onto something new and different.