[Plato]

Besides my introduction thread, this is the first thread I have dared to create thus far.

Mostly, I'm a lurker and a commentator. I rarely initiate a topic.

However, I have come across something that I find rather intriguing about myself and would like to throw it out there to get feedback and start a discussion.

Every MBTI test I have taken has concluded that I am of the INTJ personality type.

However, reading the differences between INTJ and INTP, I am under the impression that I may be better typed as INTP. Or hell, maybe INTx suits me well.

The reason I find it intriguing is that I typically score high on the J.


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is at least one article I read that is leading me to beg the question as to what type best suits my personality.

Feel free to comment, ask questions or the like. I am interested in hearing shared experiences (confusion with type), or dissecting my own type.

[TheObserver]

Surely you are aware that you have not provided anyone with any information to make an assessment? What exactly about the description do you believe describes you? I have noticed that many INTJs think they might be INTPs for trivial reasons....

INTJ: OMG they are concerned with finding the truth? So am I! We have so much in common!
INTJ: They use logic? So do I! I must be an INTP or an INTX!

It is hard to describe in words, but it is pretty easy to tell the difference between Ne users and Te users when you meet them in person. On the internet it is harder because of "one up" syndrome and "10 inch penis" syndrome. Nobody has any weaknesses, only strengths, and everyone is oh so complex and impossible to pin down. Everyone with "NT" in their Myers Briggs type is a genius with 200+ IQ that builds nanomachines in their basement on their free time and has predicted the global apocalypse to the minute, but is disappointed they haven't got it down to the second.

[Plato]

I am aware. It is actually a pretty common tendency of mine.

I realize that any information that I provide would only be my assumptions as to why I have been swaying to think I may be INTP. I can see how this would be beneficial to readers/posters, but I also can see it as detrimental because I do not intend to skew questions.

Instead, I would like to be open with the topic and to have an objective look at what type I may be.

I am by no means an expert of MBTI, nor will I claim to be. I am simply curious to learn more with an open-mind.

But since you asked, one of the main reasons I am lured more to INTP is because of the way the inferior Fe is described in the article I posted.

To grab an excerpt:

	For instance, many INTPs may find themselves getting emotional when watching a movie, reading a book, or listening to music. INTPs can be readily moved by romantic comedies or love songs that unconsciously incite their Fe emotions. For most INTPs, their Fe is rather naive and childlike, making them easy targets for love-at-first-sight sorts of infatuation.

I find this very true to me - especially at an earlier time in my life.

When I was younger, I found it much more difficult to control my emotions. I would not openly express my emotions, but I found it very easy to "crack" so to speak. I was very easily influenced by emotions.

Nowadays, I still find myself affected by such emotional connections, but I am more conscious and am capable of handling the emotions. In a sense, I am very good at detaching myself from the emotion when I choose to do so.

Also, this:

	Since their final function (Fe) is a Judging function, self-actualizing INTPs will begin to look and function more like healthy Judging types. They become more confident, reliable, and committed, not to mention more satisfied with their lives.

Since I have been filling a role that could be classified as a niche for myself, I feel I may be relating myself closer to the Judging type - maybe deceptively. As I mentioned above, I am new to the MBTI, and I am curious if the reason I am showing higher results on the Judging is due to my current position and esteem.

So, I am curious if I have mistyped myself because the author claimed it as being "not uncommon" (which I suppose isn't "common" - just not uncommon):

	Because of their capacity for focus and self-discipline, it is not uncommon for ITPs to mistype themselves as INTJs.

Please do not mistake my curiosity for expectations to line up one for one with any given type.

I have just been reading more lately, and I have been finding I have more commonalities and can relate better to the INTP type.

I have other dissimilarities with the INTJ type and similarities with the INTP type to share, but it would be more interesting for me to receive objective questions from those that are more familiar with the MBTI.

[reckful]

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(and the posts it links to) have quite a lot of my perspective on J/P, and you might also be interested in one or more of the other posts in that same thread.

On whether it's possible to be an INTx, see
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As you may know, there are a boatload of threads at INTJf that talk about the differences between INTJs and INTPs.
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has links to several, as well as links to a number of reasonably good INTJ and INTP profiles.

[Plato]

Thanks for the links, reckful. I'll check them out.

EDIT:
Still reading, but I have to ask...

Why is your table centered around how one feels about spontaneity and the concept of time?

Using the table you provided, I would classify myself as a strong J.

However, I find myself matching up with a lot of the "do"s of the INTP and the "don't"s of the INTJ. Just in this case in particular, I am pretty orderly with time. I do not like to be unprepared.

[deconspire]

The mbti just pins down what type you prefer, rather than the this is how you were born Jungian types they were based on. So you could very well strongly identify with certain aspects of the P type yet still have the J type represented stronger or more naturally in you.

I have the same "issue" as you. I'm a big fan of INTx, myself.

[Plato]

	Originally Posted by deaconspire To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The mbti just pins down what type you prefer, rather than the this is how you were born Jungian types they were based on. So you could very well strongly identify with certain aspects of the P type yet still have the J type represented stronger or more naturally in you. I have the same "issue" as you. I'm a big fan of INTx, myself.

I will not deny that I have my fair share of reading and learning to do.

I just read the article linked in the OP for both INTJ and INTP, and I felt a much stronger connection to the INTP. But hey, it is only one article. It merely ignited my curiosity.

My initial thoughts are that I have developed a stronger J to fit into my perception of the world around me and excel.

INTx isn't sounding too bad right about now, but I am looking forward to diving into this further.

[iscem42]

	Originally Posted by deaconspire To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The mbti just pins down what type you prefer, rather than the this is how you were born Jungian types they were based on. So you could very well strongly identify with certain aspects of the P type yet still have the J type represented stronger or more naturally in you. I have the same "issue" as you. I'm a big fan of INTx, myself.

This idea intrigues me, but somehow I still feel bothered when I can't figure out which of the eight functions I feel most comfortable with. It just seems really tough to figure this out through introspection, at least for those of us who are identifying as INTx...

[Tactical Panda]

Why do you want to figure out your type?
How important is accuracy to you about what type you are?
Are you curious about it or reasonably serious about it?

[reckful]

	Originally Posted by Plato To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Still reading, but I have to ask... Why is your table centered around how one feels about spontaneity and the concept of time? Using the table you provided, I would classify myself as a strong J. However, I find myself matching up with a lot of the "do"s of the INTP and the "don't"s of the INTJ. Just in this case in particular, I am pretty orderly with time. I do not like to be unprepared.

Sorry for the delay. I didn't see your edit at the time you made it.

That's not my table, but I'd say it's pretty typical in terms of the J/P descriptions you find in most MBTI-related sources. Rather than say it's how you feel about "the concept of time" that's at the heart of J/P, I'd be more inclined to say it's how you feel about how events tend to play out in time with and without heavyhanded human intervention. As I said in that J/P sorter post I already linked you to:

Originally Posted by reckful To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

A J's temperament leads him to feel that if he just lets things "happen" (leaves the world to "its own devices"), mediocrity (or worse) will likely be the result. If you want to have a good/meaningful experience, achieve good results, etc., it behooves a person to structure/filter/schedule the world. ... A P's temperament leads him to feel (or want to feel) that things tend to "happen for a reason." If you plan/filter/structure too much, you're likely to be so caught up in your own net that you'll miss out on a lot of great stuff that you would have experienced if you'd let yourself drift/wander more freely, open to respond, moment by moment, to the spontaneous treats that the world will throw your way.

You might say a J has a tendency to approach the world as if he was a cowboy dealing with an unruly colt that needed lots of proactive training and discipline in the face of the colt's natural tendency to run wild and turn out bad. A P, on the other hand, has more of a tendency to approach the world like a surfer who understands that there's not a lot you can do about scheduling those perfect waves; that the ocean has its own order, and the magic comes in being attentive and good at responding (improvising), in the moment, to the waves as they arise.

Here are a handful of quotes from Gifts Differing that were in the last thread I linked to in my first post: Myers said that J's are "more decisive than curious," while P's are "more curious than decisive." J's "live according to plans, standards, and customs not easily or lightly set aside, to which the situation of the moment must, if possible, be made to conform," while P's "live according to the situation of the moment and adjust themselves easily to the accidental and the unexpected." J's are "inclined to regard the perceptive types as aimless drifters," while P's are "inclined to regard the judging types as only half alive."

Based on the MBTI test results you've posted in the Online Tests subforum, I'd be a little surprised if you're not a J.

That stuff in your 2nd post about emotions doesn't lean me P for you at all. I'm very emotionally responsive to movies and music. It's possible that's an indication that you're Limbic on the 5th "Big 5" personality dimension that doesn't have a corresponding MBTI dimension. (See
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for more on that.)

It's not uncommon to read that INTPs characteristically resist being emotionally moved by movies, because they have some kind of defensive reaction to a filmmaker's attempt to "manipulate" their emotions — and that that kind of response, rather than being easily moved, is characteristic of "inferior Fe."
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that talks about that. (See the Fe section at the end.)

A final caveat on that INTP profile (in case you're moved to read the whole thing): Don't be thrown off by the fact that you identify with a lot of the profile. His "Ti" description, for example, is largely made up of stuff that any INT is likely to relate to, rather than stuff that does a good job distinguishing INTPs from INTJs.

[jndiii]

Originally Posted by Plato To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I will not deny that I have my fair share of reading and learning to do. I just read the article linked in the OP for both INTJ and INTP, and I felt a much stronger connection to the INTP. But hey, it is only one article. It merely ignited my curiosity. My initial thoughts are that I have developed a stronger J to fit into my perception of the world around me and excel. INTx isn't sounding too bad right about now, but I am looking forward to diving into this further.

A very good place to start is reading all the INTP vs INTJ threads in this section of the forum. Several of them tend to start arguments between INTJ and INTP, and I found that with these threads as evidence, it quickly became clear whether I identified more with the INTJ arguments or the INTP arguments.

With respect to the Fe, do not forget that INTJs are oftentimes more emotional than INTPs (Fi is tertiary, as opposed to Fe inferior). The difference is that the Fi is very internalized. Also, INTPs are generally more aware of how others perceive them, due to Fe, while INTJs oftentimes have no clue what kind of impression they're making. An INTJ experiencing extremely passionate emotions usually looks just as cold and calculating as an INTJ who is doing math in his head.

[teraczy]

I took a test once that confused me a lot too. It was a test primarily of functions. I scored very high on my use of Ni, Te, Fi, the usual, but also just as high on Ti... All practically even. It also said that my Se was virtually unused...

It said I could be one of three based on my results INTP, INTJ, INFP. I was almost happy to hear that.... BUT Every other test (and I've taken many since middle school) I come out INTJ. I'm just going with a developed use of my other functions as an explanation for that one.

Also, I don't really understand functions and exactly how they are used...so...

[reckful]

	Originally Posted by teraczy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm just going with a developed use of my other functions as an explanation for that one.

The results that INTJs typically get on the cognitive functions test that's most often linked to at INTJf are significantly inconsistent with the Ni-Te-Fi-Se pattern.

See
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[Plato]

	Originally Posted by Tactical Panda To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why do you want to figure out your type? How important is accuracy to you about what type you are? Are you curious about it or reasonably serious about it?

Nothing more than curiosity.

I just found it interesting that my J is typically high during the MBTI test, but I found myself relating rather strongly to the inferior Fe theory suggested in the article I posted.

Simply new to this and interested in hearing others' views.

---------- Post added 11-01-2011 at 10:22 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by reckful To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Sorry for the delay. I didn't see your edit at the time you made it.

Oh, not at all. I am thankful for any response. I certainly don't need any response in a timely manner. I appreciate you taking your time to give your input.

Originally Posted by reckful To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You might say a J has a tendency to approach the world as if he was a cowboy dealing with an unruly colt that needed lots of proactive training and discipline in the face of the colt's natural tendency to run wild and turn out bad. A P, on the other hand, has more of a tendency to approach the world like a surfer who understands that there's not a lot you can do about scheduling those perfect waves; that the ocean has its own order, and the magic comes in being attentive and good at responding (improvising), in the moment, to the waves as they arise.

Yes, I read this, and with this description, I am a very strong J. Since I can remember, I have never dealt spontaneity very well. It increases my anxiety. I am much more comfortable planning and having expectations. I have managed to become more slack about it, but it has taken a lot of work. In this regard, I'd say I'm a strong J.

Here are a handful of quotes from Gifts Differing that were in the last thread I linked to in my first post: Myers said that J's are "more decisive than curious," while P's are "more curious than decisive." J's "live according to plans, standards, and customs not easily or lightly set aside, to which the situation of the moment must, if possible, be made to conform," while P's "live according to the situation of the moment and adjust themselves easily to the accidental and the unexpected." J's are "inclined to regard the perceptive types as aimless drifters," while P's are "inclined to regard the judging types as only half alive."

This goes with what I said above, but again, I'd say this relates me more to the J.

	Based on the MBTI test results you've posted in the Online Tests subforum, I'd be a little surprised if you're not a J.

Well, that's what I find curious. I do think I exemplify a strong J. The author made a comment from the link I originally posted that it is not uncommon for an INTP, with self-actualization, to develop a stronger J. It just started turning my wheels.

That stuff in your 2nd post about emotions doesn't lean me P for you at all. I'm very emotionally responsive to movies and music. It's possible that's an indication that you're Limbic on the 5th "Big 5" personality dimension that doesn't have a corresponding MBTI dimension. (See To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. for more on that.)

Well, it was (maybe still is) a pretty strong weakness of mine. I've been indecisive most of my life. I have had trouble handling my emotions. I have been easily affected by infatuation. I used to avoid eye contact at all costs unless I was very comfortable. It was just interesting to discover that some of the strengths I have read about the INTJ are my weaknesses, and then, I saw that the weaknesses related to the INTP type. I can't reiterate enough that I am simply curious by all of this. Oh, and I took a "Big 5" test, and this was my result: SLUAI

It's not uncommon to read that INTPs characteristically resist being emotionally moved by movies, because they have some kind of defensive reaction to a filmmaker's attempt to "manipulate" their emotions — and that that kind of response, rather than being easily moved, is characteristic of "inferior Fe." To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. that talks about that. (See the Fe section at the end.)

When I was younger, I was more of a hopeless romantic. Now, I do this with television more than film. Probably because I don't typically watch a film unless I see it worth my time, but I don't mind watching a dumb show now and then. I typically keep myself aware and try to take note when there is emotional manipulation. I always point it out to my SO (INFP) when she is watching reality TV -- I cannot stand it when they are blatantly trying to exploit someone's death or sickness in the family for ratings. I'll take a look at that link, thank you.

	A final caveat on that INTP profile (in case you're moved to read the whole thing): Don't be thrown off by the fact that you identify with a lot of the profile. His "Ti" description, for example, is largely made up of stuff that any INT is likely to relate to, rather than stuff that does a good job distinguishing INTPs from INTJs.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. I kind of had that in mind when reading about INTP and INTJ because there will obviously be some similarities. It was the Fe that I found most intriguing in that one article.

[teraczy]

	Originally Posted by reckful To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The results that INTJs typically get on the cognitive functions test that's most often linked to at INTJf are significantly inconsistent with the Ni-Te-Fi-Se pattern. See To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Thank you so much for that, it was very helpful. I was a little confounded for a while.

I realize I didn't actually reply directly to the OP. Here are my thoughts on the matter - there are going to be PARTS of your personality that vary. You are an individual person and are ever-changing and developing. As much as us INTJs would like it to be an exact science, none of us really fit the bill exactly to a T. We just fit better into this personality out of the 16. Each of us is unique in our own way, and I find that more satisfying than that whole "textbook person" theory of identity. Always, always curious, though...

[Plato]

Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

With respect to the Fe, do not forget that INTJs are oftentimes more emotional than INTPs (Fi is tertiary, as opposed to Fe inferior). The difference is that the Fi is very internalized. Also, INTPs are generally more aware of how others perceive them, due to Fe, while INTJs oftentimes have no clue what kind of impression they're making. An INTJ experiencing extremely passionate emotions usually looks just as cold and calculating as an INTJ who is doing math in his head.

And, this is what I found interesting.

Because, I used to find it very difficult to internalize my emotion. Crying seems to come to mind the most, but there is obviously more emotion to express. Basically, it would poor out of me, and I would have a hard time containing it and being able to be rational. There are times I can recall where I would become so emotional of these seemingly small things and unable to even speak. And, your comment about INTJ's is exactly what I assumed and have had trouble relating to. Nowadays, I have more control but my emotions are like a switch. I have to detach my emotions, or they can become difficult to handle. There was a transition where I was too detached, and I would ignore emotion. I've been working on a better balance.

I think one reason I created this thread is because I would find it easier for me to be an INTJ because of the emotional struggles that I have gone through. It would be comforting, in a way, to believe that I am in control of my emotions. And, I couldn't help but to be curious if that is skewing the results of my tests at all.

[reckful]

Originally Posted by Plato To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Well, it was (maybe still is) a pretty strong weakness of mine. I've been indecisive most of my life. I have had trouble handling my emotions. I have been easily affected by infatuation. I used to avoid eye contact at all costs unless I was very comfortable. It was just interesting to discover that some of the strengths I have read about the INTJ are my weaknesses, and then, I saw that the weaknesses related to the INTP type. I can't reiterate enough that I am simply curious by all of this. Oh, and I took a "Big 5" test, and this was my result: SLUAI.

The bolded stuff sounds Limbic, and your SLOAN result (SLUAI) corresponds to Limbic — but also to ENFP! So I'm wondering if maybe you misread your results.


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and
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that explains how the SLOAN test correlates with the MBTI dimensions and also discusses the Calm/Limbic dimension.

I'd be curious to see your actual percentage results on the similarminds test. Because it's a test that lets you pick in-the-middle, mildly or strongly for each item, its results are theoretically a somewhat better indicator of how strong your preference is on each dimension than a typical "forced choice" MBTI test.

	Originally Posted by Plato To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I found myself relating rather strongly to the inferior Fe theory suggested in the article I posted.

One of the points that article makes about "inferior Fe" is that, "on a subconscious level, INTPs crave affirmation and attention from others."

I think that's a point that's pretty often made in distinguishing INTJs from INTPs. I think an INTJ's sense of self worth may depend less on what anybody else thinks of him than any other type. Everybody has some capacity to enjoy praise/appreciation/etc. to some degree, but you might say an INTJ is the most likely to experience it as a relatively "trivial pleasure." I have the impression that INTJs really stand out among the types in terms of the extent to which we don't really have any essential need for "affirmation" or "validation" from others.

And I wouldn't say INTPs are among the most needy types when it comes to that stuff, but maybe it's fair to say that they tend to be portrayed as substantially more average in that regard than INTJs.

Would you say you relate to the idea that you're in a relatively small minority in terms of the minimal extent to which you feel any need for affirmation/validation/approval from others?

[Plato]

Originally Posted by teraczy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Thank you so much for that, it was very helpful. I was a little confounded for a while. I realize I didn't actually reply directly to the OP. Here are my thoughts on the matter - there are going to be PARTS of your personality that vary. You are an individual person and are ever-changing and developing. As much as us INTJs would like it to be an exact science, none of us really fit the bill exactly to a T. We just fit better into this personality out of the 16. Each of us is unique in our own way, and I find that more satisfying than that whole "textbook person" theory of identity. Always, always curious, though...

Oh, I completely agree.

I just found myself unable to relate to some of the things being said on the threads regarding INTJ's, and I couldn't help but to start researching the other types. And where I felt detached, I felt INTP filled those gaps.

Which all just led me to start to question - am I taking the tests honestly? Or, am I taking the tests how I would like myself to be?

---------- Post added 11-01-2011 at 10:49 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by reckful To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The bolded stuff sounds Limbic, and your SLOAN result (SLUAI) corresponds to Limbic — but also to ENFP! So I'm wondering if maybe you misread your results.

Haha, my apologies... I wasn't paying attention, and I copied and pasted the wrong result.

The ENFP was my SO's result.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. and To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. that explains how the SLOAN test correlates with the MBTI dimensions and also discusses the Calm/Limbic dimension. I'd be curious to see your actual percentage results on the similarminds test. Because it's a test that lets you pick in-the-middle, mildly or strongly for each item, its results are theoretically a somewhat better indicator of how strong your preference is on each dimension than a typical "forced choice" MBTI test.

I'll retake the test, post my results and read your post as well.

One of the points that article makes about "inferior Fe" is that, "on a subconscious level, INTPs crave affirmation and attention from others." I think that's a point that's pretty often made in distinguishing INTJs from INTPs. I think an INTJ's sense of self worth may depend less on what anybody else thinks of him than any other type. Everybody has some capacity to enjoy praise/appreciation/etc. to some degree, but you might say an INTJ is the most likely to experience it as a relatively "trivial pleasure." I have the impression that INTJs really stand out among the types in terms of the extent to which we don't really have any essential need for "affirmation" or "validation" from others. And I wouldn't say INTPs are among the most needy types when it comes to that stuff, but maybe it's fair to say that they tend to be portrayed as substantially more "average" in that regard than INTJs. Would you say you relate to the idea that you're in a relatively small minority in terms of the minimal extent to which you feel any need for affirmation/validation/approval from others?

And, this is where it gets fuzzy for me. In the past, I know I have needed that affirmation. Now, I question whether I try to rationalize that I should not need it, or I actually do not need it. So, I think I feel I need it, but I rationalize that it is illogical to need such affirmation.

---------- Post added 11-01-2011 at 10:56 PM ----------

My Big 5 Results:

RCOAI

Extroversion |||| 18%
Orderliness |||||||||||||||||| 76%
Emotional Stability |||||||||||||| 56%
Accommodation |||||||||||||| 58%
Inquisitiveness |||||||||||||||||| 72%

[reckful]

Those SLOAN results correspond to Calm INFJ — with mild scores for F (58%) and Calm (56%). Your J score (76%) is pretty high.

Being an INFJ (or on the T/F borderline) would certainly be one possible explanation for your F (and/or Fe) confusion. And I'd also note that I think of INFJs as being the least F of the F's in some ways. On the other hand, it sounds like you've pretty consistently tested T on other MBTI tests you've taken.

If you have any interest in pondering your T/F status, let me know and I could follow up with links to some of my T/F posts.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by reckful To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Those SLOAN results correspond to Calm INFJ — with mild scores for F (58%) and Calm (56%). Your J score (76%) is pretty high. Being an INFJ (or on the T/F borderline) would certainly be one possible explanation for your F (and/or Fe) confusion. And I'd also note that I think of INFJs as being the least F of the F's in some ways. On the other hand, it sounds like you've pretty consistently tested T on other MBTI tests you've taken. If you have any interest in pondering your T/F status, let me know and I could follow up with links to some of my T/F posts.

The first MBTI test I have taken was the lowest T I had. I cannot remember the test. It was not from INTJf. It was given to me from a friend. I scored INTJ, and then, I found this forum.

Absolutely. I enjoy exploring/analyzing my psyche. If anything, I am sure they would be interesting reads.

[reckful]

If you're interested, here's the link to the
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, since I'd say it's the most popular straight-up forced-choice MBTI test at INTJf, and it looks like you may not have taken that one.

I think I'll hold off on the T/F links for the moment, which may make it a little more likely you'll get some more J/P input in this thread.

If it turns out that you want to have a discussion about your type that's more T/F-focused, it'll probably make sense to start a new thread anyway (you could title it, "Is Plato a thinker?"; that might be an attention-grabber
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), since anybody looking to read/participate in a T/F discussion won't be looking for it in an "INTJ vs. INTP" thread.

For the moment, and treating it as more of an INTJ/INTP issue for now (although it might turn out to be T/F), I'd like to revisit the "affirmation" point.

As a first note, temperament is pretty much (in my view) about where your gut tugs you, not about what your more "rational" (in the sense of being non-gut-tugged) perspective may be about those tugs. So, when you say —

	Originally Posted by Plato To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In the past, I know I have needed that affirmation. Now, I question whether I try to rationalize that I should not need it, or I actually do not need it. So, I think I feel I need it, but I rationalize that it is illogical to need such affirmation.

— I'm somewhat more inclined to smell temperament in your feeling that you need the affirmation than in your attempts to "rationalize" it away because it's "illogical."

Suppose you're taking a writing class with a professor who's published a story or two and who you have some respect for as a writer. If you turn in a story and it comes back with a high grade and several enthusastic comments, that could be something you value in two very different ways. From a T perspective, that feedback could just be a relatively cold piece of data to you, useful to you in helping you come to your own conclusion about how good a writer you are. But from an F perspective, you might value the fact that your writing was appreciated by someone else, and feel warmed or whatever by that external affirmation of your talent. In the T case, it wouldn't make any difference to you if everyone in the class had submitted their stories anonymously (with a TA keeping track of whose was whose), so the professor never knew the story he'd praised had been yours. And if you already felt you had enough data to consider yourself a talented writer, you might consider the high grade and praise on that story pretty much redundant. In the F case, on the other hand, you'd appreciate the fact that the professor knew it was your paper he'd liked. And, regardless of whether you already had enough data to consider yourself a talented writer, you'd get some gratification from the fact that yet another reader had appreciated that, just as a musical performer (if he's an F, anyway) can receive significant gratification from putting on the same performance each night — a performance he's already completely confident about and doesn't logically need any confirmation of — for a new audience.

I referred to the "T case" and the "F case" but, again, as I understand it, an INTP supposedly exhibits significantly more F (of that kind, anyway) than an INTJ.

And it's not black and white. It's not that an INTJ is likely to be totally "cold," and derive no pleasure at all from what you might call the "personal recognition" side of the praise. But, as I understand it, I'm kind of a classic INTJ in having that be a very minor consideration. My assumption would be that I'd be substantially less jazzed by it than almost anyone else in an average class.

If you feel like you've got a fairly significant gut-level craving for that kind of personal affirmation — notwithstanding that "logically" (as you said) you "should not need it" — then that might argue either for (1) from a dichotomies perspective, being a mild-F INFJ (or on the T/F borderline), or (2) from a cognitive functions perspective, potentially being an INTP with some "inferior Fe" that your T (or Ti) doesn't respect.

[Plato]

	Originally Posted by reckful To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If you're interested, here's the link to the To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. , since I'd say it's the most popular straight-up forced-choice MBTI test at INTJf, and it looks like you may not have taken that one.

This is actually the test that I referred to earlier.

My results:
Your Type is INTJ
Introverted: 89
Intuitive: 62
Thinking: 62
Judging: 56

Originally Posted by reckful To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Suppose you're taking a writing class with a professor who's published a story or two and who you have some respect for as a writer. If you turn in a story and it comes back with a high grade and several enthusastic comments, that could be something you value in two very different ways. From a T perspective, that feedback could just be a relatively cold piece of data to you, useful to you in helping you come to your own conclusion about how good a writer you are. But from an F perspective, you might value the fact that your writing was appreciated by someone else, and feel warmed or whatever by that external affirmation of your talent. In the T case, it wouldn't make any difference to you if everyone in the class had submitted their stories anonymously (with a TA keeping track of whose was whose), so the professor never knew the story he'd praised had been yours. And if you already felt you had enough data to consider yourself a talented writer, you might consider the high grade and praise on that story pretty much redundant. In the F case, on the other hand, you'd appreciate the fact that the professor knew it was your paper he'd liked. And, regardless of whether you already had enough data to consider yourself a talented writer, you'd get some gratification from the fact that yet another reader had appreciated that, just as a musical performer (if he's an F, anyway) can receive significant gratification from putting on the same performance each night — a performance he's already completely confident about and doesn't logically need any confirmation of — for a new audience. I referred to the "T case" and the "F case" but, again, as I understand it, an INTP supposedly exhibits significantly more F (of that kind, anyway) than an INTJ. And it's not black and white. It's not that an INTJ is likely to be totally "cold," and derive no pleasure at all from what you might call the "personal recognition" side of the praise. But, as I understand it, I'm kind of a classic INTJ in having that be a very minor consideration. My assumption would be that I'd be substantially less jazzed by it than almost anyone else in an average class. If you feel like you've got a fairly significant gut-level craving for that kind of personal affirmation — notwithstanding that "logically" (as you said) you "should not need it" — then that might argue either for (1) from a dichotomies perspective, being a mild-F INFJ (or on the T/F borderline), or (2) from a cognitive functions perspective, potentially being an INTP with some "inferior Fe" that your T (or Ti) doesn't respect.

I would have that desire of affirmation. The strength of the desire would be dependent upon how I value the subject and maybe even the teacher, but it would be there. However, in that scenario, I actually would have preferred to submit my paper as anonymous but to have had it recognized as a superior submission. I have a stronger desire for my work to receive the affirmation. I think that may be my introversion. I do not like drawing attention to myself. If I know that others appreciate the work, then I know I wrote the paper, and I indirectly receive that affirmation. It is simply nice to know that others are affected by it. I would be fooling myself if I said that I do not like the idea of having my name attached to it and others recognizing me for producing the work, but I do not like the idea of classmates "patting me on the back" so to speak. I would rather them just... know.

[enfp_female]

Plato, you are INTP, if you ask me.

Your attempt to conquer feeling to replace it with thinking already tells me that the Feeling is a strong enough element anyway! The 'feeling' part of the INTJ does not work the way you described it.

You said: "In the past, I know I have needed that affirmation. Now, I question whether I try to rationalize that I should not need it, or I actually do not need it. So, I think I feel I need it, but I rationalize that it is illogical to need such affirmation."

You clearly come from a value system that emphasises the value of thought over feeling - of logic over emotion. I am not implying you were 'brought up' one way or the other, but that your own internal value system has developed that way for some reason (peer group? family orientation? social conditioning? school??). So, it seems that the 'natural' orientation of your reaction towards feeling is getting 'interfered with' by a truant and somewhat manipulative thinking process, which tries to foist itself over the feeling, somehow having crowned itself the greater and the more worthy of the two! At least that it what it seems like from your description.

This seems very INTP to me. INTJs don't seem to have to struggle with suppressing the powerful effects of feeling, because it is simply not that powerful at all in the first place! It is certainly there, but much more of a background player, mostly just helping the INTJ evolve a value system internally. What others think of them rarely matters to the INTJ. They know within themselves if their paper is good enough or not. The INTP likes to know from an authoritative source! That is a very fundamental difference.

[Equinox]

A simple diagnosis:

If you learn 80% of the information and get 120% results with it, you're probably an INTJ.
If you learn 120% of the information and get 80% results with it, you're probably an INTP.

If you make decisions too quickly and are too sure of them, you're probably an INTJ.
If you don't make decisions fast enough and doubt them every step of the way, you're probably an INTP.

[reckful]

@Plato --

For the moment, I'm just going to add that my current overall take on you is (1) that I think it's pretty likely you're an INTJ, and (2) that, if you're not an INTJ (which also wouldn't surprise me), my sense is that it's significantly more likely you're a mild-F INFJ (or maybe INxJ) than an INTP. (Again, though, I'm temporarily holding off on giving you significantly more T/F input.)

As I explained earlier, because the SLOAN test isn't forced-choice, I'm inclined to give a little more weight (in terms of the significance of the percentages) to your 58% F, 76% J scores on that than to your 62% T, 56% J scores on HumanMetrics. But the main reason for my mild current lean against INTP is just that my overall take from the way you've described yourself so far leans me J for you (and also INTJ over INTP, given a choice between those two).