Chloë Sevigny: Has she gone too far?

**Crescent Fresh** · 10-20-2011, 01:14 PM

Art and Porn, who draws the line?

This is the first movie that makes me wonder about this issue.

[Link removed]

**Polymath20** · 10-20-2011, 01:23 PM

Who says that porn cannot be art and vice versa?

To me all film meant for entertainment falls under "art" unless of course it is meant to edify. Then it's a documentary.

Porn is just a subset of film art, like drama or science fiction.

**plotthickens** · 10-20-2011, 01:26 PM

Some people must separate sexuality from 'proper' and 'decent' pursuits of mind or body. A mental priest's collar, if you will.

Pish tosh.

**Crescent Fresh** · 10-20-2011, 01:43 PM

	Originally Posted by Polymath20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Who says that porn cannot be art and vice versa? To me all film meant for entertainment falls under "art" unless of course it is meant to edify. Then it's a documentary. Porn is just a subset of film art, like drama or science fiction.

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Some people must separate sexuality from 'proper' and 'decent' pursuits of mind or body. A mental priest's collar, if you will. Pish tosh.

I think you both missed my point. Perhaps I should've clarified my P.O.V. first by adding more details about the film.

I do not discriminate porn as a form of artistic expression. To me, bashing porn is equivalent to gay bashing. I would've respect Chloë Sevigny as a respectable actress by taking such a far leap in her acting career (she was already famous back then), only if;

a. Her co-star, Vincent Gallo, isn't the director of the film
b. They weren't romantically involved

The reason why I said it looks less art for me but more pornish is simply because the already established relationships between the two.

In fact, when this film first got premiered in Cannes for the competition, the head jury mentioned this film could easily won Palm D'or (the highest honor) if the actor didn't share the role as a director at the same time.

I see it as no difference as compare to attention whoring from those purposedly sex-leaked videotapes from celebrities.

I hope you both get to see my point.

**plotthickens** · 10-20-2011, 01:50 PM

	Originally Posted by Crescent Fresh To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In fact, when this film first got premiered in Cannes for the competition, the head jury mentioned this film could easily won Palm D'or (the highest honor) if the actor didn't share the role as a director at the same time. I see it as no difference as compare to attention whoring from those purposedly sex-leaked videotapes from celebrities. I hope you both get to see my point.

Your point seems to rely on comparing a very good film (I liked it very much) which was in the running for the Golden Palm Award with deliberately-leaked celebrity sex tapes.

Nope. I can't discern the logic behind it. Unless the idea of unsimulated sex that might actually be enjoyed, onscreen... is just beyond your pale? In which case, don't see Shortbus. I found it a lovely commentary on the funnyness of the human sexual condition, and quite uplifting, but people actually enjoy themselves onscreen.

CALL THE POLICE!

Do you find real, unsimulated belly-laughs inappropriate on film, as well? Is Method the only decent way for actors to apply their craft, to you?

**DrCiao** · 10-20-2011, 02:07 PM

In Chloë's case, I would argue it was more indicative of art.

She has a tendency to choose eccentric roles that push the limits of the status quo. I think it's quite funny Vincent Gallo decided to shoot an explicit sexual scene for a Cannes premiere mainly because the porn industry is huge there, and at the same time as the festival, there are major porn companies distributing pornography; something that I think the mainstream media doesn't report on.

If you've ever seen actual American pornography, there's no plot and visually, it consists of women with breast implants making fake screeching sounds underneath some sort of duple metre techno/dance music.

If Paris Hilton or any other celebrity releases a porn video- I think it is just homemade porn made for social networking viral purposes to promote their TV show.

You also have to understand where Chloë was coming from at the time- in the late 90s/early 2000s, one of the prominent artists was Jeff Koons- and he had always depicted paintings in the style of porn- and many of them was of a woman giving fellatio.

**Crescent Fresh** · 10-20-2011, 02:11 PM

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Your point seems to rely on comparing a very good film (I liked it very much) which was in the running for the Golden Palm Award with deliberately-leaked celebrity sex tapes. Nope. I can't discern the logic behind it. Unless the idea of unsimulated sex that might actually be enjoyed, onscreen... is just beyond your pale?

I would respect her if she's pushing the buttons for being a professional actress by playing the character with no romantic attachment with her lover, who shares both role as the actor and director.


	In which case, don't see Shortbus. I found it a lovely commentary on the funnyness of the human sexual condition, and quite uplifting, but people actually enjoy themselves onscreen.

Shortbus is different, although I've only seen the trailer. Based on what I know, the actress has no emotional involvement with her co-star and she did put herself into her role professionally. It's unfortuante that she did get fired from MuchMusic (US version of MTV) because of her bold choice.


	Do you find real, unsimulated belly-laughs inappropriate on film, as well?

No.


	Is Method the only decent way for actors to apply their craft, to you?

No. Though the controversy can be tinted with biased criticism if there's no distinction of the physical self and the role the actors partake, which is the case for Gallo and Sevigny.

Note: I'm not judging Sevigny's character, as I'm fond of actors and film makers who takes a huge leap in Arthouse projects (like Von Tiers). Though I am just merely questioning if her approach makes sense if she wants this film to stir a discussion.

Unfortuantely, she couldn't handle the criticisms and finally felt "regretted" publicly after four years of featuring this film in 2006.

Here's a quote from an interview:

She says, "I seem to question myself every day why I crossed the line in The Brown Bunny, but I really believed in the director (Gallo) as an artist. I guess I just thought, 'I could go to this extreme once,' but perhaps it was the wrong choice. I'm not gonna beat myself up over it anymore. I think perhaps if it had come out at a different time people would've reacted to it differently. Making it for me was not difficult but the reaction from the public has been very difficult for me to handle. I think a lot of people talk about it without having seen it and that's part of the problem."

**plotthickens** · 10-20-2011, 03:42 PM

	Originally Posted by Crescent Fresh To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I would respect her if she's pushing the buttons for being a professional actress by playing the character with no romantic attachment with her lover, who shares both role as the actor and director. No. Though the controversy can be tinted with biased criticism if there's no distinction of the physical self and the role the actors partake, which is the case for Gallo and Sevigny.

Ah. So:

You must respect an artist to appreciate their work
If it's about sex, it can't be simulated sex if you're to appreciate it
If the people having simulated/unsimulated sex are romantically involved, you can't appreciate the work/can't respect the work

I still don't understand why, but at least we have mapped out what your requirements are.

	Originally Posted by Crescent Fresh To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Unfortuantely, she couldn't handle the criticisms and finally felt "regretted" publicly after four years of featuring this film in 2006. Here's a quote from an interview:

Her quote seems to indicate that, if she did regret making the movie, it was only because others disrespected it... and her.

**Crescent Fresh** · 10-20-2011, 03:50 PM

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[/LIST]I still don't understand why, but at least we have mapped out what your requirements are.

You're a little off tangent here.

I'm referring to authenticity. Say for Jack Nicholson, I thought his performance in About Schmidt was fabulous, though he seems to be playing himself in movies like Batman and As Good As it Gets which resulted me in multiple yawnings.

**True Rune** · 10-20-2011, 04:00 PM

Prudes like me and/or family entertainment minded people. I guess sucking dick isn't good table talk.

ManWithNoName · 10-20-2011, 04:01 PM

I think that an actual sex act presented on screen is just that. It can be porn. It can be art. It all depends on how and in what context it is presented.

To me art is something that is both original, and moving. Porn isn't all that original nor moving (or maybe I'm just not watching the right porn). This movie could be original and moving but I would have to watch the rest of it to be able to say if it really was art or not or just more on the level of porn.

**plotthickens** · 10-20-2011, 04:11 PM

	Originally Posted by Crescent Fresh To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You're a little off tangent here. I'm referring to authenticity. Say for Jack Nicholson, I thought his performance in About Schmidt was fabulous, though he seems to be playing himself in movies like Batman and As Good As it Gets which resulted me in multiple yawnings.

Wait... are you saying that authentic lovemaking, when presented, is yawnable?

Or are you saying that authentic lovemaking, when presented, is enjoyable?

**Nemesis** · 10-20-2011, 04:12 PM

I always find it strange that people accept very graphic scenes of violence, but get all fussy when they see people fucking.

Sadists or masochists?

**Crazyblue** · 10-20-2011, 04:15 PM

So... I watched the clip. What's there to be outraged over? I don't even think that really qualifies as pornography.

**Polymath20** · 10-21-2011, 05:14 AM


	I see it as no difference as compare to attention whoring from those purposedly sex-leaked videotapes from celebrities.

Or perhaps the exhibitionist relationship was possibly the truest form of artistic expression - i.e. the passion of their relationship and sharing a truly intimate moment with... everyone...

**Trevor Black** · 10-21-2011, 05:54 AM

	Originally Posted by True Rune To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Prudes like me and/or family entertainment minded people. I guess sucking dick isn't good table talk.

Unless you were Kinsey's family, which according to the movie with Liam Neeson they talked about sucking dick and other sexual behaviour at the dinner table on a daily basis. I can dig that.

In my opinion the worst offense of The Brown Bunny movie is being boring.

**crea** · 10-21-2011, 05:56 AM

ok, so I opened the link. what did I see? a woman blowing off a guy. oh wow. you can't see this in every second ad and in loads of porn sites.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
? no.

**plotthickens** · 10-21-2011, 07:49 AM

	Originally Posted by crea To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	ok, so I opened the link. what did I see? a woman blowing off a guy. oh wow. you can't see this in every second ad and in loads of porn sites. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ? no.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging items (often with symbolic significance) in a way that influences and affects one or more of the senses, emotions, and intellect. It encompasses a diverse range of human activities, creations, and modes of expression, including music, literature, film, photography, sculpture, and paintings. The meaning of art is explored in a branch of philosophy known as aesthetics, whereas disciplines such as anthropology, sociology and psychology analyze its relationship with humans and generations.

**crea** · 10-21-2011, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by plotthickens
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Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging items (often with symbolic significance) in a way that influences and affects one or more of the senses, emotions, and intellect. It encompasses a diverse range of human activities, creations, and modes of expression, including music, literature, film, photography, sculpture, and paintings. The meaning of art is explored in a branch of philosophy known as aesthetics, whereas disciplines such as anthropology, sociology and psychology analyze its relationship with humans and generations.

oky, so I go out and film two dogs sniffing each others asses with my phone camera. am I an artist yet?
p.s. also, I can use an HD camera if that will make a difference.

**zibber** · 10-21-2011, 08:30 AM

Although that is obviously just obnoxious, the whole "everything is art" line of reasoning does more or less open the floor to comments like those.

**BlackOp** · 10-21-2011, 08:43 AM

	Originally Posted by crea To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	oky, so I go out and film two dogs sniffing each others asses with my phone camera. am I an artist yet? p.s. also, I can use an HD camera if that will make a difference.

Maybe if you juxtapose a few clips of women spraying their necks with perfume..and a few head-on car collisions. Cupcakes being iced would be nice in there too..maybe wedding rings and house fires.

Then you might have something resembling art...so to answer your question..no. There is nothing inventive, original, reflective or personal in a simple clip of dogs sniffing asses. Unless you are an extreme minimalist...in which you would have a body of work which collectively creates a unique narrative...or brings context to the clip.

It usually takes years of hard-living, personal trauma, trial and error...or a "ripple in the force" to create something transcendent...or that universally affects. Statements like these usually come from someone who knows nothing of the process...or is just talking shit.

**Crescent Fresh** · 10-21-2011, 08:44 AM

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Wait... are you saying that authentic lovemaking, when presented, is yawnable? Or are you saying that authentic lovemaking, when presented, is enjoyable?

It's not the issue of authenticity. It's the issue of they both claim their work is art but to me they're abusing art for merely being an exhibitionist.

If they're not romantically involved, or Gallo not being the director, then it's a different story.

**BlackOp** · 10-21-2011, 08:50 AM

	Originally Posted by Crescent Fresh To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's not the issue of authenticity. It's the issue of they both claim their work is art but to me they're abusing art for merely being an exhibitionist. If they're not romantically involved, or Gallo not being the director, then it's a different story.

I'd have to see it within the context of the film. If the film is a shit pile...and just relying on a BJ scene for shock...it's desperate. The fact that they are involved has no bearing to me..

**Comen** · 10-21-2011, 08:57 AM

Art is a really wide concept. Is any kind of human expression, any attempt to communicate something. Porn can also be art, making a fellatio to your boyfriend in front of the camara is also a form of art according to this art deffinition.

**BlackOp** · 10-21-2011, 09:01 AM

	Originally Posted by Comen To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Art is a really wide concept. Is any kind of human expression, any attempt to communicate something. Porn can also be art, making a fellatio to your boyfriend in front of the camara is also a form of art according to this art deffinition.

There is also really bad art that nobody cares about....and works that transcend time.

Its the same as if I write "it's nice out today"...so I'm now a poet.

10-20-2011, 01:14 PM	#1
Crescent Fresh Member [12%] MBTI: INFJ Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 502	Art and Porn, who draws the line? This is the first movie that makes me wonder about this issue. [Link removed] Last edited by IotaNull; 10-21-2011 at 08:29 AM. Reason: Removed link to sexually explicit material.
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10-20-2011, 01:23 PM	#2
Polymath20 Core Member [410%] MBTI: ENTP Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 16,430	Who says that porn cannot be art and vice versa? To me all film meant for entertainment falls under "art" unless of course it is meant to edify. Then it's a documentary. Porn is just a subset of film art, like drama or science fiction.
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10-20-2011, 01:26 PM	#3
plotthickens Core Member [660%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 26,417	Some people must separate sexuality from 'proper' and 'decent' pursuits of mind or body. A mental priest's collar, if you will. Pish tosh.
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10-20-2011, 02:07 PM	#6
DrCiao Member [33%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,344	In Chloë's case, I would argue it was more indicative of art. She has a tendency to choose eccentric roles that push the limits of the status quo. I think it's quite funny Vincent Gallo decided to shoot an explicit sexual scene for a Cannes premiere mainly because the porn industry is huge there, and at the same time as the festival, there are major porn companies distributing pornography; something that I think the mainstream media doesn't report on. If you've ever seen actual American pornography, there's no plot and visually, it consists of women with breast implants making fake screeching sounds underneath some sort of duple metre techno/dance music. If Paris Hilton or any other celebrity releases a porn video- I think it is just homemade porn made for social networking viral purposes to promote their TV show. You also have to understand where Chloë was coming from at the time- in the late 90s/early 2000s, one of the prominent artists was Jeff Koons- and he had always depicted paintings in the style of porn- and many of them was of a woman giving fellatio. Last edited by IotaNull; 10-21-2011 at 08:29 AM. Reason: Removed link to sexually explicit material.
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10-20-2011, 04:00 PM	#10
True Rune Core Member [200%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 8,006	Prudes like me and/or family entertainment minded people. I guess sucking dick isn't good table talk.
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10-20-2011, 04:01 PM	#11
ManWithNoName Core Member [201%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 8,073	I think that an actual sex act presented on screen is just that. It can be porn. It can be art. It all depends on how and in what context it is presented. To me art is something that is both original, and moving. Porn isn't all that original nor moving (or maybe I'm just not watching the right porn). This movie could be original and moving but I would have to watch the rest of it to be able to say if it really was art or not or just more on the level of porn.
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10-20-2011, 04:12 PM	#13
Nemesis Core Member [304%] MBTI: XXXX Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 12,181	I always find it strange that people accept very graphic scenes of violence, but get all fussy when they see people fucking. Sadists or masochists?
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10-20-2011, 04:15 PM	#14
Crazyblue Member [33%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,339	So... I watched the clip. What's there to be outraged over? I don't even think that really qualifies as pornography.
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10-21-2011, 05:56 AM	#17
crea Member [02%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 90	ok, so I opened the link. what did I see? a woman blowing off a guy. oh wow. you can't see this in every second ad and in loads of porn sites. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ? no.
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10-21-2011, 08:30 AM	#20
zibber Core Member [407%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 16,281	Although that is obviously just obnoxious, the whole "everything is art" line of reasoning does more or less open the floor to comments like those.
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10-21-2011, 08:57 AM	#24
Comen New Member [01%] MBTI: INtj Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 46	Art is a really wide concept. Is any kind of human expression, any attempt to communicate something. Porn can also be art, making a fellatio to your boyfriend in front of the camara is also a form of art according to this art deffinition.
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