Are ESFJs generally stupid? - Page 2

**Sumwun** · 10-21-2011, 04:33 PM

Most people are stupid, regardless of their MBTI's

**mllebrie** · 10-21-2011, 07:36 PM

I think my sister is one. I love my sister, she's a sweet kid, but sometimes I feel like we're from different planets. She's not too sharp. Or maybe she is, but she's so emotional that it hides her intelligence? I don't know.

Sorry, E. I still love you!
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**WindUp** · 10-21-2011, 09:07 PM

	Originally Posted by sircockburn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Or maybe these Fe doms are simply polite enough to refrain from slapping you repeatedly in the face with their IQ equivalent of an 8-inch 3" diameter cock. Just because they don't flash it to you, doesn't mean it's not there. They keep it inside. Because they have decency. That's what Fe said.

Lolz... Refraining from showing intelligence for the sake of being polite?

Also, ESFJs aren't always polite :P ESFJs can be condescending, overly concerned with appearances, and close-minded about anything that doesn't conform to their idea of the norm.

I know one who is one of the rudest most passive agressive people I've ever met. He's extremely giving, but I can hardly call him a friend because the way he tries to manipulate people for his own gain all the damn time is really annoying. I can only take him in small doses nowadays.

**mieu** · 10-21-2011, 09:29 PM

I'm marrying one, and he is extremely intelligent in ways that are natural for him, but unnatural for me. He picks up on just about every subtle detail around him, can read people like a book, and combines this with creativity into a talent of being capable of creating things that can captivate an audience (he's basically a youtube film prodigy waiting to be discovered, if he could find the time to be inspired). He also has an astronomical amount of crystallized knowledge and just soaks up information like a sponge--while I can absorb information at a conceptual level and formulate questions in order to learn more, he dives in for the experience (and takes me along for the ride, which has certainly broadened my horizons)

Immature ESFJs are horrendous, particularly female ones (since all of the immature ESFJs I know are female). Not necessarily in the 'stupid' way, but in the 'mercilessly suck the life out of you way' Perhaps the root of the stigma is that the more immature ESFJs' resourcefulness lies in their ability to manipulate people, whereas a rational prefers to manipulate circumstances.

**Paul Siraisi** · 10-22-2011, 04:41 PM

	Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	MBTI has nothing to do with abilities. There are INTJs who are made at logic, science, math, grasping philosophical ideas etc. There are ESFJs who are good at it.

I don't think that's true, but the connection is statistical, meaning each type contains a variety of individuals who as a group tend a certain way, but also outliers who go other ways. I'd say a philosophical ESFJ is an outlier.

**maddel** · 10-23-2011, 02:25 PM

Are ESFJs generally stupid? NO
My mother is one and.....just no, she is violent, irrational when angry, and I'm unable to have a decent conversation with her but that doesn't change the fact that she has an impressive intellect, quick mind, and able to manipulate the social game to boot.
My INTJ dad is happily married to her for over 20years and whispers to me that he is impressed with her mind and she probably would have beaten him academically if they had studied the same subject at university.

**Luciferi** · 10-23-2011, 02:48 PM

I know one. I wouldn't call him "stupid", but he has an extreme lack of common sense and often fails to comprehend the big picture. His topics of conversation are limited to himself or sex. It's impossible to have an intellectual conversation with him. He often tries to appear intellectual, but the things that come out of his mouth only reveal to everyone that he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about. He has a total lack of self-awareness and is incapable of seeing how other people might perceive him. He is selfish, quick to anger, vindictive, and prone to tantrums and screaming matches. His IQ aside, he is a downright unpleasant person to be around. I hope I never meet another, if that is what they are all like. And from what other people have said, it sounds like most of them are that way.

**AkaruiRain** · 10-23-2011, 04:46 PM

Bleh. Not fun to talk to at all. Complains too much, self-centered, negatively draining, pretty much.

I know a few in class.

**Zsych** · 10-23-2011, 04:55 PM

They focus on different - more traditional - things. Doesn't mean they are unintelligent because of that. Natural talent varies across people. So there are some plenty intelligent and capable people who are ESFJ (and some rather dumb INTJ - an intelligent attitude doesn't guarantee that you'll get all that far
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**Jinxu** · 10-24-2011, 06:17 AM

	Originally Posted by Masslessxphoton To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Im not saying ALL esfjs are airheads, just on average. think of all esfjs you've meet, what were/are they like?

No, they are not generally stupid. They can be intelligent, but very few (if any) can be considered geniuses. This goes for ESTJ too. It's their ES side that keeps them from being geniuses, IMO.

**benr3600** · 10-24-2011, 11:08 PM

Not that I'm the greatest at typing IRL, but I know one that is an ESFJ. This teenage girl at work that really wants me lol. She isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, by any stretch of the imagination.

Wouldn't ESFJ be at the bottom of the MBTI totem pole, based on the negative correlation each preference has with general intelligence?

**Tactical Panda** · 10-25-2011, 01:08 AM

	Originally Posted by benr3600 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Wouldn't ESFJ be at the bottom of the MBTI totem pole, based on the negative correlation each preference has with general intelligence?

As convincing intellectuals, perhaps.

For academic performance, they seem to do very well where I'm from.

In terms of general intelligence, define.

**Negativezero** · 10-25-2011, 01:32 AM

	Originally Posted by Masslessxphoton To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Im not saying ALL esfjs are airheads, just on average. think of all esfjs you've meet, what were/are they like?

Hmmm.... the esfj's I've met...
My mom. Not stupid. Irrational, doesn't care about science and math a whole lot, not the greatest finances. Can organize a party, comes up with overly complex cooking recipes from scratch [which requires a lot of thought], good at resolving social issues by critically thinking about what motivations those involved have, fast learner. Remembers holidays and birthdays and what people want for them.

She's not stupid, just doesn't care about science and math and spends little time with them. Other area's she's shown she's pretty smart.

Jenny, a friend. She's not a school oriented person. She's a social strategist. She's got a good eye for knowing who will benefit her cause the most, who to date, who to invite to a party who not to. It's a great social intelligence. She's good at introducing the right people to the right people too. It's all very thought out. Math, and science, horrible at it. English too. She's clearly a smart girl though.

Most esfj's I know are like this, socially intelligent but don't seem to give a fuck about school.

**Taryuna** · 10-25-2011, 02:31 AM

The ESFJ I know is very intelligent. Probably a bit atypical, too (that is, at the first glance), which is why it took me so long to figure out his type, but it's really obvious when looking at the functions. He's the one who got me into pen-and-paper roleplaying (nope, S doesn't mean they're unable to be interested in theoretical non-real-world stuff - it doesn't stand for "shallow", either, by the way), a bit of a geek and great at strategy and board games (play the people, not the game...well, actually both, but he's better than me at the psychological component, and at developing strategies involving other people/groups. Fe is an extroverted judging function, too, just like Te, and it shows).

He's one of those types who was bad in school despite the intelligence, mostly for lack of trying/interest.

He does also appear emotional/clingy/slightly arrogant (tendency to think he knows others better than they themselves) to me, which is in accordance with the stereotypical faults, but I still value him highly as a person.

The lack of T shows mostly in a lack of scepticism whenever emotions are involved - they just override the logic module, no matter how highly developed it is.

**JTG** · 10-25-2011, 09:43 PM

	Originally Posted by benr3600 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	correlation each preference has with general intelligence?

I wasn't aware there was a correlation. The only thing i've seen to support the idea is a blog post somebody made, which gave percentages but didn't reference any research or documentation or actual science

**Zombicide** · 10-25-2011, 09:52 PM

Of course they are, just like INTJs. No wait, actually, more so, they're an S type after all ... and an extravert even. Hell, they even get an F.

**reckful** · 10-25-2011, 11:15 PM

	Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	MBTI has nothing to do with abilities. There are INTJs who are made at logic, science, math, grasping philosophical ideas etc. There are ESFJs who are good at it.

	Originally Posted by benr3600 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Wouldn't ESFJ be at the bottom of the MBTI totem pole, based on the negative correlation each preference has with general intelligence?

	Originally Posted by JTG To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I wasn't aware there was a correlation. The only thing i've seen to support the idea is a blog post somebody made, which gave percentages but didn't reference any research or documentation or actual science

Based on a quick look at the statistics and discussion in the MBTI Manual, it looks like, from the standpoint of the kinds of intelligence measured by standardized tests (SATs, etc.) and IQ tests, the two MBTI dimensions that correlate in a noteworthy way are I/E and N/S. Ns have the biggest advantage, and Introversion makes a smaller, but significant, contribution.

Ts and Ps seem to score slightly higher, on average, than Fs and Js, respectively -- but it looks like the magnitude of those differences really puts them in the "not worth mentioning" category. And when it comes to actual school grades, Js tend to do slightly better than Ps.

**PersonaNonGrata** · 10-26-2011, 10:59 AM

It has always been clear to me that, by default, a Sensing type is just far less intellectually curious than an Intuitive type. A gross overgeneralization of course, but this would easily explain why one would consider an ESFJ to be an "airhead".

Of course, everyone has their purpose. Whereas an INTJ is more likely to spend its time aligning the intricacies of its self constructed cyborg's artificial intelligence.; its ESFJ partner will be deeply, deeply considering what would be the best Christmas gift to get for a cyborg. Everyone has their purpose. :D

**Grimace** · 10-26-2011, 01:45 PM

I think my sister is ESFJ, and no, she's not stupid. We can sometimes have very in depth conversations.

That said, though, we have a hard time getting along for any length of time. There just seems to be this vast gulf between us in how we view the world. Sometimes manipulative. Yes, she's very caring and goes out of her way to help people, but she does make it known that she did these things, and should be recompensed in some way. I think INTJ's and ESFJ's have a natural inability to get along very well, not always or exclusively, judging by the responses in this thread, but perhaps more often than not. Maybe it's just that it's harder for an ESFJ to become completely realized and mature, or that the lack of this is simply more apparent and outwardly projected in the them than in an equally unrealized INTJ. Not sure.

The lack of N is always troubling to me. Different planets and all that.

**Jimmy** · 10-27-2011, 03:29 AM

I actually have no problem with them except they care tooooooo much about people and they probably think of Intjs as being toooooo uncaring. I find ESFJs competent and nice to be around.

**shortnsweet** · 10-27-2011, 04:56 AM

No, definitely not all stupid, just different focuses as some of the people here said.

I think my mom is a good example of an smart ESFJ. It's mostly applied to her work. (Dietician, pretty good job for an ESFJ.) As she gets older, she's showing more big picture pursuits. Working to target a larger population. Teaching, motivational speaking, talking on radio shows, writing articles. Not afraid to change her perspective on things as new empirical data comes up-but also making more solid and sound leaps of logic as she begins to trust her intuition more. Making an impact. When she started this work she was in hospitals using her strong S qualities with cancer patients and in ICU's. She was super thorough, didn't miss a beat- always asks questions and investigates when the details aren't adding up- can change people's lines of thought just by catching that one little "minor" thing that ends up making a huge difference. All this fueled by "simple" caring. Like this in her daily life too. Very practical- uses her functions very wisely. I love her as a good example of a textbook healthy ESFJ.

I won't go in to the stupid ones, we all know about those already.

**Polymath20** · 10-27-2011, 05:16 AM

I have a couple of Exxx friends who are actually extremely intelligent but because intellect is generally frowned upon in some circles of friends and in pop culture they hide and ACT quite stupid. On the other hand, in more private company you can get into intense Wikipedia debates with them. I think that E's in general are more willing to put on a facade for the sake of fitting in whereas I's, in particular us INTJ's resent being "fake" as truth is a core value for us.

**Avantcomets** · 10-27-2011, 05:49 AM

The two ESFJ males I know are really caring and lovable. They have to involve everyone during their social events. Definitely involving a bunch of SJs and SPs partying it all night. I find them really clingy in a sense that they continuously call me to invite me to their social events, even when I say no, they keep persuading me and making me feel bad in the end for not going. Plus, I told them they're 'care givers' or 'carebears' and they use that to persuade me to tell them my 'secrets'. Haha, it doesn't work.
They're certainly not dumb but there is dumb/intelligent in every 'type'. Intellect doesn't correlate with personality types. I guess SJs are the 'normal' people, and they're considered 'dumb' most of the time.

**mastermind23** · 10-27-2011, 06:43 AM


	Intellect doesn't correlate with personality types.

Ummm where'd you hear that? It has been shown that 'N' and to a lesser extent 'I' do correlate to intelligence.

**sadf** · 10-27-2011, 08:51 AM

The ESFJ I know is very smart in the practical S way that I am not. Remembers every tiny detail of our job. Also her EQ is scary, she can read people like a book and sell anything. Has a ton of friends, very easy to talk to, basically my complete opposite.

10-21-2011, 04:33 PM	#26
Sumwun Member [24%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 971	Most people are stupid, regardless of their MBTI's
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10-21-2011, 07:36 PM	#27
mllebrie Member [37%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 1,510	I think my sister is one. I love my sister, she's a sweet kid, but sometimes I feel like we're from different planets. She's not too sharp. Or maybe she is, but she's so emotional that it hides her intelligence? I don't know. Sorry, E. I still love you! To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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10-21-2011, 09:29 PM	#29
mieu Core Member [183%] $/)^3^(\$ MBTI: xNTx Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 7,353	I'm marrying one, and he is extremely intelligent in ways that are natural for him, but unnatural for me. He picks up on just about every subtle detail around him, can read people like a book, and combines this with creativity into a talent of being capable of creating things that can captivate an audience (he's basically a youtube film prodigy waiting to be discovered, if he could find the time to be inspired). He also has an astronomical amount of crystallized knowledge and just soaks up information like a sponge--while I can absorb information at a conceptual level and formulate questions in order to learn more, he dives in for the experience (and takes me along for the ride, which has certainly broadened my horizons) Immature ESFJs are horrendous, particularly female ones (since all of the immature ESFJs I know are female). Not necessarily in the 'stupid' way, but in the 'mercilessly suck the life out of you way' Perhaps the root of the stigma is that the more immature ESFJs' resourcefulness lies in their ability to manipulate people, whereas a rational prefers to manipulate circumstances.
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10-23-2011, 02:25 PM	#31
maddel New Member [01%] MBTI: INTP Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 13	Are ESFJs generally stupid? NO My mother is one and.....just no, she is violent, irrational when angry, and I'm unable to have a decent conversation with her but that doesn't change the fact that she has an impressive intellect, quick mind, and able to manipulate the social game to boot. My INTJ dad is happily married to her for over 20years and whispers to me that he is impressed with her mind and she probably would have beaten him academically if they had studied the same subject at university.
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10-23-2011, 02:48 PM	#32
Luciferi Member [17%] MBTI: IsTp Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 683	I know one. I wouldn't call him "stupid", but he has an extreme lack of common sense and often fails to comprehend the big picture. His topics of conversation are limited to himself or sex. It's impossible to have an intellectual conversation with him. He often tries to appear intellectual, but the things that come out of his mouth only reveal to everyone that he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about. He has a total lack of self-awareness and is incapable of seeing how other people might perceive him. He is selfish, quick to anger, vindictive, and prone to tantrums and screaming matches. His IQ aside, he is a downright unpleasant person to be around. I hope I never meet another, if that is what they are all like. And from what other people have said, it sounds like most of them are that way.
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10-23-2011, 04:46 PM	#33
AkaruiRain Banned MBTI: INTP Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 592	Bleh. Not fun to talk to at all. Complains too much, self-centered, negatively draining, pretty much. I know a few in class.
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10-23-2011, 04:55 PM	#34
Zsych Core Member [309%] MBTI: XNTX Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 12,372	They focus on different - more traditional - things. Doesn't mean they are unintelligent because of that. Natural talent varies across people. So there are some plenty intelligent and capable people who are ESFJ (and some rather dumb INTJ - an intelligent attitude doesn't guarantee that you'll get all that far To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. )
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10-24-2011, 11:08 PM	#36
benr3600 Member [28%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,131	Not that I'm the greatest at typing IRL, but I know one that is an ESFJ. This teenage girl at work that really wants me lol. She isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, by any stretch of the imagination. Wouldn't ESFJ be at the bottom of the MBTI totem pole, based on the negative correlation each preference has with general intelligence?
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10-25-2011, 02:31 AM	#39
Taryuna Member [04%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 166	The ESFJ I know is very intelligent. Probably a bit atypical, too (that is, at the first glance), which is why it took me so long to figure out his type, but it's really obvious when looking at the functions. He's the one who got me into pen-and-paper roleplaying (nope, S doesn't mean they're unable to be interested in theoretical non-real-world stuff - it doesn't stand for "shallow", either, by the way), a bit of a geek and great at strategy and board games (play the people, not the game...well, actually both, but he's better than me at the psychological component, and at developing strategies involving other people/groups. Fe is an extroverted judging function, too, just like Te, and it shows). He's one of those types who was bad in school despite the intelligence, mostly for lack of trying/interest. He does also appear emotional/clingy/slightly arrogant (tendency to think he knows others better than they themselves) to me, which is in accordance with the stereotypical faults, but I still value him highly as a person. The lack of T shows mostly in a lack of scepticism whenever emotions are involved - they just override the logic module, no matter how highly developed it is.
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10-25-2011, 09:52 PM	#41
Zombicide Core Member [105%] MBTI: INTj Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 4,226	Of course they are, just like INTJs. No wait, actually, more so, they're an S type after all ... and an extravert even. Hell, they even get an F. Last edited by Zombicide; 10-25-2011 at 10:27 PM.
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10-26-2011, 10:59 AM	#43
PersonaNonGrata New Member [01%] MBTI: xNTx Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 7	It has always been clear to me that, by default, a Sensing type is just far less intellectually curious than an Intuitive type. A gross overgeneralization of course, but this would easily explain why one would consider an ESFJ to be an "airhead". Of course, everyone has their purpose. Whereas an INTJ is more likely to spend its time aligning the intricacies of its self constructed cyborg's artificial intelligence.; its ESFJ partner will be deeply, deeply considering what would be the best Christmas gift to get for a cyborg. Everyone has their purpose. :D
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10-26-2011, 01:45 PM	#44
Grimace Member [12%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 486	I think my sister is ESFJ, and no, she's not stupid. We can sometimes have very in depth conversations. That said, though, we have a hard time getting along for any length of time. There just seems to be this vast gulf between us in how we view the world. Sometimes manipulative. Yes, she's very caring and goes out of her way to help people, but she does make it known that she did these things, and should be recompensed in some way. I think INTJ's and ESFJ's have a natural inability to get along very well, not always or exclusively, judging by the responses in this thread, but perhaps more often than not. Maybe it's just that it's harder for an ESFJ to become completely realized and mature, or that the lack of this is simply more apparent and outwardly projected in the them than in an equally unrealized INTJ. Not sure. The lack of N is always troubling to me. Different planets and all that.
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10-27-2011, 03:29 AM	#45
Jimmy New Member [01%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 19	I actually have no problem with them except they care tooooooo much about people and they probably think of Intjs as being toooooo uncaring. I find ESFJs competent and nice to be around.
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10-27-2011, 04:56 AM	#46
shortnsweet New Member [01%] MBTI: xxxx Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 48	No, definitely not all stupid, just different focuses as some of the people here said. I think my mom is a good example of an smart ESFJ. It's mostly applied to her work. (Dietician, pretty good job for an ESFJ.) As she gets older, she's showing more big picture pursuits. Working to target a larger population. Teaching, motivational speaking, talking on radio shows, writing articles. Not afraid to change her perspective on things as new empirical data comes up-but also making more solid and sound leaps of logic as she begins to trust her intuition more. Making an impact. When she started this work she was in hospitals using her strong S qualities with cancer patients and in ICU's. She was super thorough, didn't miss a beat- always asks questions and investigates when the details aren't adding up- can change people's lines of thought just by catching that one little "minor" thing that ends up making a huge difference. All this fueled by "simple" caring. Like this in her daily life too. Very practical- uses her functions very wisely. I love her as a good example of a textbook healthy ESFJ. I won't go in to the stupid ones, we all know about those already.
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10-27-2011, 05:16 AM	#47
Polymath20 Core Member [413%] MBTI: ENTP Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 16,523	I have a couple of Exxx friends who are actually extremely intelligent but because intellect is generally frowned upon in some circles of friends and in pop culture they hide and ACT quite stupid. On the other hand, in more private company you can get into intense Wikipedia debates with them. I think that E's in general are more willing to put on a facade for the sake of fitting in whereas I's, in particular us INTJ's resent being "fake" as truth is a core value for us.
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10-27-2011, 05:49 AM	#48
Avantcomets New Member [01%] MBTI: ENxP Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 7	The two ESFJ males I know are really caring and lovable. They have to involve everyone during their social events. Definitely involving a bunch of SJs and SPs partying it all night. I find them really clingy in a sense that they continuously call me to invite me to their social events, even when I say no, they keep persuading me and making me feel bad in the end for not going. Plus, I told them they're 'care givers' or 'carebears' and they use that to persuade me to tell them my 'secrets'. Haha, it doesn't work. They're certainly not dumb but there is dumb/intelligent in every 'type'. Intellect doesn't correlate with personality types. I guess SJs are the 'normal' people, and they're considered 'dumb' most of the time.
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10-27-2011, 08:51 AM	#50
sadf Member [20%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 808	The ESFJ I know is very smart in the practical S way that I am not. Remembers every tiny detail of our job. Also her EQ is scary, she can read people like a book and sell anything. Has a ton of friends, very easy to talk to, basically my complete opposite.
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