[JustMel]

Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

That one suffers doesn't alleviate one from guilt. 90% of all divorces are initiated by women (probably part of why men are increasingly untrusting of the idea of marriage to a woman) Something doesn't have to be ill intentioned to be ill advised. That said, I'm not sure broken homes are primarily the fault of women. I do think they'r bad for children, but where society is now, is a product of everyone's choices.

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If you're going to throw out statistics at least use them correctly.

Two-Thirds of the Time It’s the wife who files for divorce in about two-thirds of divorce cases, at least among couples who have children. According to the National Center for Health Statistics, the proportion has changed slightly over the years; for example, in 1975, approximately 72 percent of the divorces in the U.S. were filed by women, whereas by 1988, only about 65 percent were filed by women. The Same throughout the 19th Century A study reported in the American Law and Economics Review in 2000, "These Boots Are Made for Walking: Why Most Divorce Filers are Women" also showed that more recently, women file more than two-thirds of divorce cases in the US. Even though the individual states’ data vary somewhat and the numbers have fluctuated over time, throughout most of the 19th century about 60 percent of divorce filings were by women. Moreover, in some of the states where no-fault divorce was introduced, over 70 percent of the divorce filings were by women. Among college-educated couples, the percentage of divorces initiated by wives is a whopping 90 percent.

[floramacivor]

	Originally Posted by Grimace To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I thought broken homes were blamed on absent fathers?

That's what I always hear - single moms are generally pitied as abandoned by irresponsible men who either left them pregnant, or cheated and left the marriage, or were such rotten husbands and fathers that the marriage dissolved. I haven't heard single moms blamed, but more often as heroic victims. It must be the circles I'm in.

[gslemer]

It's good to notice you wrote "broken homes" in quotations, because you meant it figuratively. Otherwise it would mean a really broken place, pieces falling apart and stuff like that.

Answering your question... "Broken homes" are to be blamed on mama. Broken homes are to be blamed on daddy. Got it?

The great philosopher Christopher Julius Rock III once said:

If the kid calls his grandmother "mommy" and his mother "Pam"; he's going to jail. You are not saving college money, you are saving bail money. That's right: If the kid can't read that's Mama's fault. Now, if the kid can't read because there are no lights in the house... That's Daddy's fault.

[Sumwun]

Because women usually get custody - no questions asked - for some retarded reason. I guarantee if my dad got custody of me as a child, my childhood would have been 100x better. I hated my mom. My dad tried to get custody, but my mom threatened to call immigration on him if he got the courts involved (he was illegal). Even though he had a slightly higher income and actually gave a damn about me instead of using me as some bargaining chip for personal pride like my mom did, he couldn't do anything about it.

My mom was a bitch. I blame her for my shitty childhood.

[JustMel]

Originally Posted by Sumwun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Because women usually get custody - no questions asked - for some retarded reason. I guarantee if my dad got custody of me as a child, my childhood would have been 100x better. I hated my mom. My dad tried to get custody, but my mom threatened to call immigration on him if he got the courts involved (he was illegal). Even though he had a slightly higher income and actually gave a damn about me instead of using me as some bargaining chip for personal pride like my mom did, he couldn't do anything about it. My mom was a bitch. I blame her for my shitty childhood.

A lot of us came from "broken homes" and had shitty childhoods. There comes a point where blaming anyone is pointless.

[invicta]

"Single Mothers" are blamed for society's downfall when "Single Mom" is a euphemism for "Welfare Queen".

It is that ignorant, really. It is still part of popular discourse in the US, right alongside the trope that working women delay childbearing for too long.

The wrong kinds of mothers abound, apparently.

[True Rune]

Never really seen that to be honest. I've seen the "welfare queen" stigma, but most of the attention and fault is on scumbag dads and how they are not there for their children.

In my case, our mother abandoned us for some old guy and our father had to be the single parent. But I never blamed "women" for that.

[invicta]

	Originally Posted by True Rune To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Never really seen that to be honest. I've seen the "welfare queen" stigma, but most of the attention and fault is on scumbag dads and how they are not there for their children. In my case, our mother abandoned us for some old guy and our father had to be the single parent. But I never blamed "women" for that.

Well you are more intelligent than many people.

When Murphy Brown became pregnant as a single woman on that old show there was much nail-biting over the message that sent to women. It is still happening, sadly. Natalie Portman's recent pregnancy sparked the same concern for impressionable young ladies from such people. It isn't limited to celebrities, either. The same sentiment was expressed for single mothers with children who were receiving state help when drug testing was proposed for Florida welfare recipients. Because poor mothers are likely to spend their state money on drugs, naturally. That turned out to be about more than single mothers and drug use, but the public sentiment left far too little outrage over civil rights violations, and too much over how single mothers might spend State money.

I was raised by a single dad, too, and I wish that the default parent image wasn't that of a woman. When many people think of the caretakers of children, the image of a mother is all they see. There are a lot of great fathers.

[enfp_female]

Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It is repeated time and again on INTJf how single moms and broken homes are awful and horrible and downfall of society, etc etc etc. Why are the single moms, who are working their asses off to support themselves and their kid and make their way in the world, being blamed for "breaking" those families? What about the father who's not there helping out -- how does absence = innocence? The fathers aren't stepping up to the plate. So why are women blamed?

Plotthickens, First, I appreciate this question. Or rather the spirit of it.

However, it might help if you sharpened it a little bit. Here are a few questions I'd like to seek responses from you for:

1. "Single moms and broken homes are awful"
--> Single moms are awful; broken homes are awful --> Two separate ideas, both of which merit their own discussion

2. "Why are the single moms, who are working their asses off to support themselves and their kid and make their way in the world, being blamed for "breaking" those families?"
--> It seems that you feel that empirically people blame the women. Why do you feel so? Is there some specific thread(s) that exhibit such behaviour, where the women seem to be blamed more than the men are? What makes you think that people, in general, blame the women to the exclusion of the men in the picture?

3. "What about the father who's not there helping out -- how does absence = innocence? "
--> Father is not there helping out=> absence. However nothing in there suggests that they are being held innocent. Again, it seems that you feel that fathers are left scott free. How you arrived at that conclusion/assumption is not clear from your post.

Please clarify and it might lead to a better directed debate.
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Just a friendly suggestion, without invalidating the spirit of your original post.

[Zsych]

Hmm...

With women initiating 90% of divorces, women break relationships and become single parents by choice most of the time, and are thus responsible for broken homes wherein children lose access to the guidance of their fathers.

[enfp_female]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Hmm... With women initiating 90% of divorces, women break relationships and become single parents by choice most of the time, and are thus responsible for broken homes wherein children lose access to the guidance of their fathers.

hmm... Very interesting!

Women initiate divorce => Women are responsible for broken homes.

Are we missing one link in the chain

Someone created trouble; therefore someone had to initiate divorce.

Didn't the problem leading to broken homes start before the divorce was initiated? Unless the person initiating the divorce can be blamed of flippancy, typically initiating divorce is a culmination of a longish period of difference of opinion. Either that, or a short period of unbearable differences (intensive, rather than extensive). Either way, the responsibility for the broken home goes prior to the divorce initiation, no? Someone was intolerant; someone was unreasonable; someone was aggressive etc.

Typically, it takes two to make a situation so bad that it ends up in divorce. I am assuming that most people think that divorce is an uncomfortable and unhappy option, prima facie and not most people's first recourse to problem solving!

Please explain your stance in this light.

[Eridal]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Hmm... With women initiating 90% of divorces, women break relationships and become single parents by choice most of the time, and are thus responsible for broken homes wherein children lose access to the guidance of their fathers.

It's not quite that high last I checked, closer to 75%, but the larger point that women predominately initiate divorce is still true.

Of course that leads into the fallacy that just because they initiate most of the divorces that they are responsible for what caused the problems within the relationship leading to the divorce. Unfortunately I haven't found much research supporting either side.

[Rivers]

Well, women choose don't they? If they chose poorly, it's their fault for being superficial in their analysis of mates. My own mom chose very poorly and had to file for divorce after 20 years of marriage. Now, it was completely justified, my father is an alcoholic, but the fact remains that her choosing poorly caused me a lot of grief, not the divorce, but 20 years with a bad father. As Kelly Bundy would say, there's something rotten in the state of Denver, perhaps women should think over their hooking up process because they let themselves get decieved too many times. If someone decieves you, it's your own fault that you fell for it.

[LadySpock]

Broken homes are blamed on women because women are expected to be more moral & sensible than men are.

"Women are society's glue!"

"Boys will be boys!"

The same people who think this way will also state that men are logical & women are emotional. They will also state that women are just gold diggers. And...they will also claim that men are intellectually superior to women.

[Onlyme]

Originally Posted by some other forumemale To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

hmm... Very interesting! Women initiate divorce => Women are responsible for broken homes. Are we missing one link in the chain Someone created trouble; therefore someone had to initiate divorce. Didn't the problem leading to broken homes start before the divorce was initiated? Unless the person initiating the divorce can be blamed of flippancy, typically initiating divorce is a culmination of a longish period of difference of opinion. Either that, or a short period of unbearable differences (intensive, rather than extensive). Either way, the responsibility for the broken home goes prior to the divorce initiation, no? Someone was intolerant; someone was unreasonable; someone was aggressive etc. Typically, it takes two to make a situation so bad that it ends up in divorce. I am assuming that most people think that divorce is an uncomfortable and unhappy option, prima facie and not most people's first recourse to problem solving! Please explain your stance in this light.

If that stat of 90% is true, wouldn't it point to a certain unreasonableness in women's expectations in marriage?

---------- Post added 11-05-2011 at 11:23 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by LadySpock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Broken homes are blamed on women because women are expected to be more moral & sensible than men are.

On what planet, exactly, are women expected to be more moral and sensible?

[LadySpock]

	Originally Posted by Onlyme To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If that stat of 90% is true, wouldn't it point to a certain unreasonableness in women's expectations in marriage?

It could also point to men being shitty partners.

	On what planet, exactly, are women expected to be more moral and sensible?

On this planet & in this little discussion.

One blatant example: Men are given a pass for sexual promiscuity, not women.

Another example: Women are expected to dress & behave in ways which manages male sexual urges because men can't be relied on to control themselves. "Don't dress like a slut or you'll be inviting rape!" "Don't go out alone, you'll get raped!"

[Eridal]

	Originally Posted by LadySpock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It could also point to men being shitty partners.

Or it could mean women are shitty partners and bail when the novelty wears off.

The problem with using statistics however you want is that someone can come along and use the same statistic to say the complete opposite.

	Originally Posted by LadySpock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	On this planet & in this little discussion. One blatant example: Men are given a pass for sexual promiscuity, not women.

And from an evolutionary point of view this makes perfect sense. Men can have as many children as they have sexual partners women on the other hand are far more limited. This means men would be driven to have as many sexual partners as they can support and women would try to find a single partner which would be a good father to their children.

[Seriously]

Originally Posted by Eridal To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Or it could mean women are shitty partners and bail when the novelty wears off. The problem with using statistics however you want is that someone can come along and use the same statistic to say the complete opposite. And from an evolutionary point of view this makes perfect sense. Men can have as many children as they have sexual partners women on the other hand are far more limited. This means men would be driven to have as many sexual partners as they can support and women would try to find a single partner which would be a good father to their children.

No we just need to find the one we can milk the most money out of. It's not like you will actually BE there to help raise the kids, we just need the cash you can provide.

What are the odds of finding a man who will be a good father really? Most men pretty much suck which is why we are forced to divorce them eventually. But really what can you expect from creatures who either have to lie or use force to get laid most of the time??

[LadySpock]

	Originally Posted by Eridal To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Or it could mean women are shitty partners and bail when the novelty wears off. The problem with using statistics however you want is that someone can come along and use the same statistic to say the complete opposite.

That was my point.

	And from an evolutionary point of view this makes perfect sense. Men can have as many children as they have sexual partners women on the other hand are far more limited. This means men would be driven to have as many sexual partners as they can support and women would try to find a single partner which would be a good father to their children.

In today's society a man cannot have as many children as the number of sexual partners he has....or he can - but then what would his life be like?

Let's review...

I stated that women are expected to be more moral & sensible than men. I said that this thinking is part of the reason why women are blamed for single parent homes as well as many other social ills. Then someone sarcastically asked - On what planet are women expected to be more moral & sensible than men?

I replied with a few examples. One example was
Men are given a pass for sexual promiscuity, not women.

Your reply is that men being given a pass for promiscuity makes perfect sense from an evolutionary standpoint?

Well, what about from the standpoint of how life works TODAY? (which impacts us all more directly) A man with many kids from many different women (a perpetual "baby daddy") is a pariah. If he has the money to support them, he is still looked down on by respectable people and he is sought out by more "baby mammas" looking to get paid.

Don't get dizzy - double standards rarely make sense.

[Eridal]

Originally Posted by Seriously To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

No we just need to find the one we can milk the most money out of. It's not like you will actually BE there to help raise the kids, we just need the cash you can provide. What are the odds of finding a man who will be a good father really? Most men pretty much suck which is why we are forced to divorce them eventually. But really what can you expect from creatures who either have to lie or use force to get laid most of the time??

Once again I can say the same about women if I wanted. They all suck and are horrible mothers I'd never even consider most of the retarded women I met as even remotely competent in helping me raise a child so I might as well treat them like crap till they leave and hope I can get my child in the divorce.

Originally Posted by LadySpock

I replied with a few examples. One example was Men are given a pass for sexual promiscuity, not women. Your reply is that men being given a pass for promiscuity makes perfect sense from an evolutionary standpoint? Well, what about from the standpoint of how life works TODAY? (which impacts us all more directly) A man with many kids from many different women (a perpetual "baby daddy") is a pariah. If he has the money to support them, he is still looked down on by respectable people and he is sought out by more "baby mammas" looking to get paid.

The standpoint of how life works today is based on a combination of our biological imperatives and our past civilizations. Societies do no exist within a vacuum of their current times and your arguments appear to be making the point that the past shouldn't affect our current modes of thinking, a common fallacy.

[JustMel]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Hmm... With women initiating 90% of divorces, women break relationships and become single parents by choice most of the time, and are thus responsible for broken homes wherein children lose access to the guidance of their fathers.

I've told you before if you're going to throw that statistic out use it in the context it's supposed to be in. 90% of divorces are initiated by women if they are college educated.

[Seriously]

	Originally Posted by Eridal To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Once again I can say the same about women if I wanted. They all suck and are horrible mothers I'd never even consider most of the retarded women I met as even remotely competent in helping me raise a child so I might as well treat them like crap till they leave and hope I can get my child in the divorce.

Good luck with getting custody. Everyone knows men don't get the kids. Because THEY SUCK.

[JustMel]

	Originally Posted by Seriously To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Good luck with getting custody. Everyone knows men don't get the kids. Because THEY SUCK.

That's not always true. Plenty of women suck as the primary parent.

[Eridal]

	Originally Posted by Seriously To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Good luck with getting custody. Everyone knows men don't get the kids. Because THEY SUCK.

That's what lawyers are for to make sure the judge knows the truth that women are really the crazy ones and suck. And of course EVERYONE knows that this is true but those evil women keep lobbying Congress and paying off the judges. So they need to be treated unfairly in the legal system as men have been in the past, and still in the present to an extent.

[JustMel]

	Originally Posted by Eridal To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That's what lawyers are for to make sure the judge knows the truth that women are really the crazy ones and suck. And of course EVERYONE knows that this is true but those evil women keep lobbying Congress and paying off the judges. So they need to be treated unfairly in the legal system as men have been in the past, and still in the present to an extent.

True, but it's getting better for the good fathers. Just this week my husband got custody of not only his daughter but her older sister who isn't his as well. Actually, both of us got custody of them but still he's the dad. The judge point blank told their mother that she has no "discernible parenting skills" and "lacks the judgment required to actually raise children day to day". It was a woman judge.