[Shadizar]

What glass ceiling?

[Rudy]

	Originally Posted by AthenaPatra To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The process you describe may happen in a socialist economy, sure.

Naw; I'm not talking about the artificial creation of jobs by a bloated bureaucracy. Rather, I'm talking about the dynamic creation of jobs that occurs when people go looking for jobs.

Some, not finding jobs, decide to go into business for themselves. Or, some companies hire more people since they can do it for less. In the long run, the economy will equilibriate to the point where unemployment is at its natural rate. It's painful in the short run, but in the long run the result is more people working, at more jobs.

The current economy is in a slump, but that doesn't have anything to do with womens' rights.

As for the other, I see your point now, and actually agree to an extent. Yes, if women who were already in the workforce were artificially constrained from certain jobs, then the alleviation of those constraints would, indeed, put more pressure on men seeking the same jobs, which would provide them, personally, an additional reason for anxiety. Obviously, this would be to the benefit of the economy as a whole in the long run, though, if the more qualified persons were doing the job.

[Tactical Panda]

	Originally Posted by Shadizar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What glass ceiling?

Unexpected resistance that overcomes the resourcefulness or opportunities at hand for progression within a hierarchal system. For most underneath it, it is disheartening. For others, an excuse to complain. For others, an excuse to overcome the challenges of the environment.

Often it isn't there for a good reason.

But now that I think about it, it is a good way to weed women without effective leadership potential from those that do, as long as it isn't an absolute glass ceiling and you are aware of potential. A great trial of fire and test of character. But its never used like this that I know of.

[JC22]

Yes.

I dont know about other men, but IMHO all women should bow to me at least bi-daily.

[Paji eh Wong]

	Why are some men threatened by women receiving equal rights?

Feminism isn't about equal rights. It is about getting a shot at being a man and having the ability to be a woman as a fall back position. Men and women are inherently different, vis-a-vie biology, and therefore equality (meaning sameness) is impossible. I can't have babies, with all of the advantages and responsibilities therein.

Feminists looked up to the top of society, and saw it was run by men. What they didn't do is look down at the bottom of society, which is also full of men. Jails are full of men, the army is full of men, and the cemetery is full of men. Being a man is a high risk, high reward proposition. Some of us make it to the C-suite, many more will wind up dead, in prison, or stuck in a cubicle.

Women don't take the risks that men take, mostly because they don't need to. It is better for a woman to play it safe, and find the best man she can to take care of her.

I find it ironic that women now have all of these choices, and have become less happy than men.

I am for equality between men and women, if you define equality as equal value. I think western society is deeply anti-feminine, and feminists have been the leading edge of that trend. I've left North America, and I find it interesting the number of western women I meet displaying false consciousness. They want to be feminine women, they want love and kids and a family life, but have been socialized out of it by western culture.


Everyone who is interested in gender should read ...

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[Shadizar]

Glass Ceiling in the
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?

[JC22]

Yeah, these feminists. Sheesh.

While in college, one hardcore feminist geology professor I had would remind us, both the women and men taking the course, that males were nothing more than poor excuses for dildos, and that all women needed in their life was a vibrator, to satisy the desire of having a boyfriend. I guess she found it funny?

I don't know what that particular professor used the males in her life for, but I am sure if the tables were turned and it if it had been the other way around, a male professor talking about how women are only poor excuses for "flesh holes", it would have been another story for the professor's career.

[zibber]

Originally Posted by JC22 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Yeah, these feminists. Sheesh. While in college, one hardcore feminist geology professor I had would remind us, both the women and men taking the course, that males were nothing more than poor excuses for dildos, and that all women needed in their life was a vibrator, to satisy the desire of having a boyfriend. I guess she found it funny? I don't know what that particular professor used the males in her life for, but I am sure if the tables were turned and it if it had been the other way around, a male professor talking about how women are only poor excuses for "flesh holes", it would have been another story for the professor's career.

Did that make you cry a little?

[idoj]

Originally Posted by Paji eh Wong To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Feminism isn't about equal rights. It is about getting a shot at being a man and having the ability to be a woman as a fallback position. Men and women are inherently different, vis-a-vie biology, and therefore equality (meaning sameness) is impossible. I can't have babies, with all of the advantages and responsibilities therein. Feminists looked up to the top of society, and saw it was run by men. What they didn't do is look down at the bottom of society, which is also full of men. Jails are full of men, the army is full of men, and the cemetery is full of men. Being a man is a high risk, high reward proposition. Some of us make it to the C-suite, many more will wind up dead, in prison, or stuck in a cubicle. Women don't take the risks that men take, mostly because they don't need to. It is better for a woman to play it safe, and find the best man she can to take care of her. I find it ironic that women now have all of these choices, and have become less happy than men. I am for equality between men and women, if you define equality as equal value. I think western society is deeply anti-feminine, and feminists have been the leading edge of that trend. I've left North America, and I find it interesting the number of western women I meet displaying false consciousness. They want to be feminine women, they want love and kids and a family life, but have been socialized out of it by western culture. Everyone who is interested in gender should read ... To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I find it interesting that for some reason feminism keeps being misinterpreted as a woman's desire to be a man, take men’s positions, and be less female. I have never heard Gloria Steinem say you know what ladies we need to be just like men!
Why is it that you assume that women are getting more and more unhappy?
I think that women w/o any rights were much less happy than women are today. They just didn’t have the right to say so w/o their husband’s permission.

I know for sure if my only option to stop an unwanted pregnancy was a back alley and a hanger I’d be quite unhappy.
I know that if I was seen as my husband’s property my ability to be happy would exponentially decrease to levels lower than on my worst day with my rights intact.
I think that every woman is born a feminist and the man hating butch stereo-type of feminism propagated by the media leads them to believe that there is something wrong with standing up for them.
The argument that there is a biological difference is quite true! However, I don’t think that men really want to advocate that argument; men develop language and social skills more slowly and that isn’t a reason to give them more rights than women to make up for their deficits.
Yes, the X chromosome is much larger than the Y and holds more genetic information; giving one’s mother a greater say in the heritability of her child’s traits but that is no reason to give her fewer rights than a man.

Feminism may have been made into something else in the media but it is absolutely about fairness and equality. There are lots of prisons filled with women, as well. Plenty of those women are in prison right now b/c they killed an abusive spouse rather than suffer another day that could have been their last.

Lots of women will die this year because their doctor won’t take their symptoms, seriously.

Other women will die in service to a country that regularly debates their right to be, in that service.

Still more women will raise families alone b/c of a lack of integrity and responsibility in their male counterparts. Evidently, these same women will be blamed for the destruction of the very families they are struggling to keep together.
Feminism has nothing to do with emasculating men or maculating women. It is about treating women with equal respect and decency. While, many women are doing much better on the equality front there are women all over the world being treated quite poorly and abused b/c of patriarchal societies that allow their male members to treat their spouse’s like property to overpower, abuse, and command.

I notice that not one male has commented on how they resolve in their minds the belief that women deserve inferior treatment with the fact that they had to live in a uterus for 10 months to exist, yet.

I think the crux of the issue is that men like hierarchy and women with equal rights gives them one less group to be instantly more powerful than. And if a wife has equal rights a husband may have to actually put forth effort to continue to get what he wants out of the relationship.

During the Civil Rights Movement the most venomous bigots tended to be poor white people b/c blacks getting equal rights reduced the pool of people that outranked their social status to no one.

We live in a world where 1 out of 4 women will be physically assaulted or raped by a man by the time she reaches the end of her life. It’s absolutely time to stop acting like feminism is about taking a man’s place or job and see it for what it is. A civil rights issue that must be addressed.

[JC22]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Did that make you cry a little?

Yes. One tear rolled down my left cheek on that day . But then I reminded myself that "I am a big boy now", and sucked it up.
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[Tactical Panda]

	Originally Posted by JC22 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I guess she found it funny?

Secular teachers who pervert their role into lifestyle preachers rarely are, regardless of topic.

[Purgatid]

The only reason to feel threatened is if you're weak. Therefor - I will assume that men threatened by equality are aware that they are useless, and therefor oppose any change that takes away hierarchical benefits that are granted them without them achieving anything above being born. Had they been as superior as they imply that they are, there would be no reason to be threatened. Rather - they'd welcome equality to prove they're better.

[Haumea]

	Exactly; unsurprising since Aristotle was much more in favor of equality of the citizenry than was Plato.

Well, not exactly - not the female portion.
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Short Plato: women elites=men elites. Short Aristotle: men > women.

Anyway, a related post from a
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(no social conservative) who comes to a horrifying conclusion.

	Are you saying these laws are unfairly slanted in a woman's favor? If so, how?

I think
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is the current popular encapsulation of the situation, although by no means exhaustive.

[zibber]

Let's switch to discourse that is held entirely in cartoon form.

[nowt]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Let's switch to discourse that is held entirely in cartoon form.

Panelitist.

[Nonsuch]

If we're talking solely about the situation in the U.S., the last time I was there (80s), there seemed to be a double standard of the sort which Haumea describes.

That is: women had the same rights as men and in addition were allowed to keep the perks from the time when they were regarded as subordinate to men.

I noticed a number of women behaving badly during that time and no one correcting them. (I suppose they would be called bitches or divas today.)

Hope that things have gotten better since then . . .


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[Eudoxus]

Originally Posted by Purgatid To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The only reason to feel threatened is if you're weak. Therefor - I will assume that men threatened by equality are aware that they are useless, and therefor oppose any change that takes away hierarchical benefits that are granted them without them achieving anything above being born. Had they been as superior as they imply that they are, there would be no reason to be threatened. Rather - they'd welcome equality to prove they're better.

Is it cool to treat women, and other people badly if you make a bunch of money or earn status in general then?

[Tactical Panda]

Are there some women who are threatened by men want men to feel threatened by women?

I think I just broke my brain - this is kind of like inception or matrix - an emotional climate inside and emotional climate wrapped within illusions within illusions.

I guess... I'm not sure if that is the case, but it seems completely in line with human nature.

• A child will throw rocks at a spider to deter it.
• A youth will tell lies to impress his or her peers to gain security and influence.
• A young adult will be tempted to want a prospective partner to want to chase them instead of being the chaser.
• An adult knows that a defensive person is less apt at being resourceful while under stress.
• An old person... is probably sick of the whole affair and turn their attention to peace or respect.
• A dead person... is still vulnerable to character assassination. As if one death wasn't enough...

Er... back to topic. What do you have to say about this?

[IreOfDesire]

There are plenty of privileges in our society dedicated and unique for both men and women.
And I don't understand why feminism tries to reduce the male privileges, but ignore and disregard theirs.

You want the right to choose to have own career, income and not to be a "simple" housewife and mother to your kids? Well why i don't have the choice to be "simple" housedad (there must be such a word to avoid discrimination!) and father to my kids? I want to be fully financially supported by a working female, I don't want to waste my whole life in studying to get a good well-paid steady job and then break my backbone to invest in my career and business, but the society does not allow me to.

You complain about rape assaults, how man is a simple sex thirsty animal and how terribly violated are the victims of such misdeeds. FYI men (mostly boys) are also raped and it is far more devastating for them. Also there is much higher risk for men to be severely damaged through physical assaults and any kind of physical assaults happen much more frequently to males instead of females. Society states: women should not be hit, they're fragile.

You speak of how men beat up their wifes the prolonged physical aggression, but you never speak of the emotional harassment that a woman can lay on a man (or to anyone actually). And have in mind that this type of harassment could have higher psychological and longterm impact to the victim.

I'm not writing this to complain about my life or to demonize the entire opposing gender, but i'm trying to shed light on the other side which you believe is so undeserving privileged. You have plenty of advantages by being a woman, just exploit them and stop whining about the unfair cruel men's world.

[Purgatid]

	Originally Posted by Eudoxus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is it cool to treat women, and other people badly if you make a bunch of money or earn status in general then?

I wouldn't think so, no.

[Eudoxus]

I think some legitimate feminists might recognize the concerns of men...

But the percentage of legitimate feminists is unbelievably small.

And the document posted earlier shows why it is illogical, and impossible for any equality to exist until the actual differences are removed.

Again, it is SIMPLE.

It isn't that men are weak, or scared, it is that men are biologically handicapped, severely, in the game of evolution. To create a fair playing field, the legal game was tipped in their favor.

If you had a perfectly even legal game, then women have an unbelievable biological advantage pushing them into super advantage territory.

That is the explanation.

Frankly, it also just goes against all of our social, cultural, historical programming via evolution because of this...we know we have lower survival rates as a species if we value women and men equally on the biological level, so it goes against the grain to try and even it all out.

I mean we can do it, sure, but everyone should be honest about what is going on.

Until both genders are neutralized, it is going to be awful.

I don't see any reason for a man to push himself even lower down into the mud by fighting for an equal legal game either...

Not that they shouldn't, or whatever, but I just see no reason why they would, unless they were rich and powerful, I guess, because those men actually might gain from it, hah.

So that is probably why it has been successful at all.


Anyone that wants to remove the biological advantage along with the legal one, is headed in the right direction for actual equality. That is what I am happy to fight for.

There are not many of us though.

If you aren't willing to do that, then you had better try and kill off the feminists.

---------- Post added 09-29-2011 at 03:56 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by Purgatid To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I wouldn't think so, no.

Well, it's implied by your previous post that it is...

You seem to be saying only the weak should be threatened, because the strong can already treat people however the fuck they want.

I guess that's true, as I indicate, wealthy men, that can just bypass the norms, only gain from a larger consumer base; the majority of men naturally lose.

The rich men will also gain because in a feminized country that had a Titanic incident, all the rich men would live, as opposed to the actual Titanic where only 34% of rich men lived, while 46% of poor women lived.

Frankly though, your average man, who is already being abused by wealthy men, is now going to lose his legal advantage too...so he has good reason to be scared I should think.

[JC22]

	Originally Posted by IreOfDesire To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well why i don't have the choice to be "simple" housedad (there must be such a word to avoid discrimination!) and father to my kids? I want to be fully financially supported by a working female, I don't want to waste my whole life in studying to get a good well-paid steady job and then break my backbone to invest in my career and business, but the society does not allow me to.

Hmm, this just gave me an idea! :D

Would any girl like to try this with me? I'll be 'fragile' stay at home dad, and you can be the 'tough' working mom and go work to put food on the table for us. I guess I overlooked that option, being brainwashed and all. Dangit, this was the solution to my problem all along...FUCK what society thinks.
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	You complain about rape assaults, how man is a simple sex thirsty animal and how terribly violated are the victims of such misdeeds.

Damnit, another good point. I wish I were raped by women every now and then. Why do women get all the fun?

[Purgatid]

	Originally Posted by Eudoxus
	Well, it's implied by your previous post that it is... You seem to be saying only the weak should be threatened, because the strong can already treat people however the fuck they want.

Sorry you assigned what I said those underlying traits. That was not my intention. What I am saying is that if you know you are competent, then more competition won't scare you, unless you believe that competition is more competent than you are. In effect - if you have a degree in engineering, and you are applying for a job that requires such, then you would only be threatened if the other people applying for the same job are engineers, or have additional skills besides engineering. You're not going to be threatened by a gardener, because he won't get the job anyway.

In short - if you know you're valuable, then why would you be threatened by anyone you perceive as less valuable? Surely, the men threatened by equality must realize that equality will make their lives harder, because there's more competition. Not only with careers, but socially as well. They can no longer rely on the social function of woman being submissive to their wishes. They have to actually attract the woman, since they're no longer needed for financial support.

[sevans]

It's not about equal rights, it's about male oppression. Women have pretty much achieved equal rights in most sections of the US society, what they are looking for now is revenge against men for years of oppression.

[themuzicman]

Originally Posted by idoj To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I’ve seen a lot of threads that are about the damning effects of feminism and the feminist movement. As though, gender equality in some way diminishes the value of the many rights the male gender enjoys by making those rights standard for both. Do some men really think they are superior to women, and deserve to be treated as such? If a man holds this belief... How does he reconcile the cognitive dissonance of having been created by a woman, and in many cases desiring women for mates?

Feminism isn't about equal rights, anymore. Hasn't been for a long time. Were that the case, men would have a say in whether they accept parenthood of an unborn child. But feminists demand to have control over whether a child is born, and control over whether a man is forced to pay for children he fathers. That's not equal rights.

Feminism has also been a driving force behind affirmative action, gender normed testing and a variety of other items designed to give women preferential treatment over men. That's not equal rights. (In case you didn't know, our federal government now gives preferential treatment in handing out contracts to "women owned businesses." Thanks feminists.)

So, when you say feminism has something to do with "equal" rights, I just laugh. That hasn't been the case since Susan B. Anthony.