[emrah]

How can things change without time existing?
The existence of some thing/phenomenon and the measure of it are different things.

	Originally Posted by Daoist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I doubt that. Entropy increases only in net value. A given part of the universe (that's not isolated from the rest) might have decreasing entropy, if the rest of the universe has a greater amount of increase in entropy. Time does not seem to reflect that property.

[followthehippos]

	Originally Posted by emrah To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	How can things change without time existing? The existence of some thing/phenomenon and the measure of it are different things.

A chair takes up a certain amount of space, measurements serve to establish a standard for interpreting how much space that chair takes up. No matter what our standard for measurement is, that chair will always take up a certain amount of space (it remains constant too). Things change whether or not we measure time.

[emrah]

	Originally Posted by followthehippos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A chair takes up a certain amount of space, measurements serve to establish a standard for interpreting how much space that chair takes up. No matter what our standard for measurement is, that chair will always take up a certain amount of space (it remains constant too). Things change whether or not we measure time.

Yeah. That was my point.

[followthehippos]

	Originally Posted by emrah To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yeah. That was my point.

I see it now, I misunderstood your question as being a counter to my question. Though I think something changing is the same as saying something is changing. One is the happening the other is the noticing/observing. So, in that regard noticing/observing is subjective in regards to what we define the measuring units to be. Though even without our noticing/observing that thing is still happening. Therefore, noticing/observing is just our way of interpreting what is going on. So, interpretation is different then what is happening? OR correct interpretation IS what is happening?

You see my point? I'm saying they are the same thing if our observations are correctly defined. If they are incorrect or if our brain functions improperly, then it is possible that our observations are wrong. Just some thoughts, I'm not holding onto them with a death grip or anything.

[Daoist]

	Originally Posted by emrah To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I doubt that. Entropy increases only in net value. A given part of the universe (that's not isolated from the rest) might have decreasing entropy, if the rest of the universe has a greater amount of increase in entropy. Time does not seem to reflect that property.

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	As Maccone explains, the second law of thermodynamics is then reduced to a mere tautology: physics cannot study processes where entropy has decreased, due to a complete absence of information.

(And the complete absence of information = lack of perception of time.)

I'm not going to claim this was what I meant when I wrote the above...but I was thinking about your question and playing around in my head with the notion that temperature and information are interchangeable (Maxwell's Demon), and theoretically if I had thought about it for a lot longer (and if I were a lot smarter) I'd like to think I would have come up with something like that. Something along these lines is the only way to answer this question in terms of physics.