[Zhen]

I obviously have an opinion...but I just want to know what other people think?

[Leesh]

Honesty: Im not physically attracted to the asian males' body characteristics in general.
Racist: All Indians say 'how' in greeting.

[rwyatt365]

I think that the "nugget" in racism is an expression of malicious or derogatory intent. A person can express an honest opinion that might be construed as racist but - in my opinion - if there is no mal-intent then it is their honest though or opinion.

Before pulling out the "race card" - were I presented with that thought - I would inquire into the persons motivation for it, in an effort to divine their intent. If I were to detect simply the honest expression of a thought I would offer a "second opinion" in an attempt to edify them, and perhaps alter that thought. However if I detect mal-intent then I would "walk away" and leave them to their ignorance.

[ManWithNoName]

Is the complaint based on actual behavior? Then no it's not really racist.

It is based upon what you think the person will do based upon their ethnicity? (ex. he is black and therefore a thug) then yes it's racist.

[DaMonkey]

Wheres the line? There is no line. Asians are bad drivers, Indians own gas stations, white people are arrogant and black people love watermelon flavored stuff & fried chicken but I mean honestly who wouldn't. These are justs facts they are not racist. The only racism is genacide and slavory... but that is the way of civalized man, right? So there is no line. Society moves the line as they see fit. But we are INTJs who cares what society thinks. Where do you think the line is?

[Subgenius]

Eh, slavery as an institution is really racist/ethnocentric. Africans sold off Africans back in the day, and now Mexicans and peoples of the former Soviet satellite states sell off their own too. Like it's been said racism can be when you predict outcomes based on race or ethnicity or apply outcomes to a race based on one of it's participants. With racism/ethnocentrism there is generally a feeling of superiority attached to it.

Though I think sometimes honesty and racism intermix. If you are driving through the Orange Mound area of Memphis or South Memphis, you might be scared of the black people you see. Why? Because it is black gangs central and people get shot all time, including on the street. Collateral damage is frequent. Is that racist? Possibly, but the fact that your delivery/girlfriend/friend/favorite restaurant is there puts you on guard, and honestly, it's for a good reason. Death is pretty permanent, and it's pretty cheap in the areas you pass through.

[Philanthropist]

Racism - purporting the idea that one or more racial groups are categorically inferior to another/others.

Racial prejudice - believing you can categorically predict the actions of another based on race.

Honesty - the likelihood that another person will act in a certain way due to race when it's based on actual data. Not categorically condemning a person based on race, but for instance admitting that black people are more likely to commit murder than white people in the U.S. (statistically shown to be true).

Also in the honesty category would be personal preference type statements. Professing dislike or discomfort with a particular racial culture or not being attracted to members of a certain racial group is often called racist which is pretty ridiculous.

---------- Post added 09-24-2011 at 12:37 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by Leesh To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Racist: All Indians say 'how' in greeting.

This is racially prejudiced, but not racist.

[Odie]

Certain cultures and races consistently possess negative traits. It's called the truth. German's are the descendants of a marauder society, WWI and WWII was the inevitable result of the world changing around them. African Americans males have entitlement issues and huge.. physical attributes, the quantity of them that leech of fat white chicks is higher than any other race. Frenchies suck at war, the Majinot Line was one of the biggest military jokes in history. The Mediterranean is a arid climate, the sun turns skin into jerky, so Italians tend to have greasy skin and hair.

The German mastery of controlled obsession creates extremely high quality products and sciences. The African American physic, the result of generations of selective breeding and relentless labor, is inferior to none. The French excel in creating all simply pleasures, food, alcohol, etc. Italians are.. Italians.

[dungeonguy88]

If you have to declare that your merely being honest, then you might be racist.

But yeah, if your presuming traits on the part of another based on superficial physical differences then, yes, your probably leaning towards being a racist. Finding such traits in a person of a particular race however is usually not racism, provided you don't then project those findings on others later on.

[AureliaSeverina]

Originally Posted by Odie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Certain cultures and races consistently possess negative traits. It's called the truth. German's are the descendants of a marauder society, WWI and WWII was the inevitable result of the world changing around them. African Americans males have entitlement issues and huge.. physical attributes, the quantity of them that leech of fat white chicks is higher than any other race. Frenchies suck at war, the Majinot Line was one of the biggest military jokes in history. The Mediterranean is a arid climate, the sun turns skin into jerky, so Italians tend to have greasy skin and hair. The German mastery of controlled obsession creates extremely high quality products and sciences. The African American physic, the result of generations of selective breeding and relentless labor, is inferior to none. The French excel in creating all simply pleasures, food, alcohol, etc. Italians are.. Italians.

I think the operative word here is "cultures". Many of the examples you quoted might have to do more with culture than race as a genetic thingy. Also, back in the days when the Germans were a marauder society, so was everybody else, including the French etc. Plus, there is so much genetic mixing in Europe that you can't really speak of different races (and there are scientiest who argue that there are no human races at at all on a genetic level). After all, 25%(hope I got this right) of English males have German genes, yet England imports dustbins from Germany because they can't even make simple things like that themselves. The reason why they can't is to do with the education system, not with genes.

Having said that, I find it puzzling how people developed such varying cultures in the first place. By cultures I don't mean art, music etc, but the general mentality. It might sound like a stereotype, but it does seem true that most people from a particular country will share a common outlook and way of thinking. That makes me wonder how and when a particular way of thinking became acceptable and what advantages people got from agreeing with it when it was "introduced" and not yet established as the norm. [/off topic]

[Daoist]

Originally Posted by AureliaSeverina To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Having said that, I find it puzzling how people developed such varying cultures in the first place. By cultures I don't mean art, music etc, but the general mentality. It might sound like a stereotype, but it does seem true that most people from a particular country will share a common outlook and way of thinking. That makes me wonder how and when a particular way of thinking became acceptable and what advantages people got from agreeing with it when it was "introduced" and not yet established as the norm. [/off topic]

Big, complicated question. I'd approach that from the perspective of economics - "institutional economics" if you want a term to google. Some, very limited elements on the list:

1) Geography. I find that people in colder climates are, well, colder. People in places with more natural hazards develop more messainic religions. Countries that are blessed to be located on a trading route have to develop certain institutions, etc.

2) Language; accompanying social mores. I think this is most evident when looking at the very big picture, like Asia versus Europe.

3) Long-term policies/economic conditions. Being in perpetual debt gives you a certain mindset. Education and other investments can feed on themselves, over generations. Trust levels of authorities can also affect general outlooks.

4) Historical narratives. A country or people who think of themselves as having been mortally threatened (think the Jews, or North Korea) will have a different outlook on life in general. This will rub off similarly for those at the top of the international food chain.

[ChiralClockwise]

	Originally Posted by dungeonguy88 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If you have to declare that your merely being honest, then you might be racist. But yeah, if your presuming traits on the part of another based on superficial physical differences then, yes, your probably leaning towards being a racist. Finding such traits in a person of a particular race however is usually not racism, provided you don't then project those findings on others later on.

Everything here is dead on but especially the first sentence. When someone I'm talking to (especially new acquaintances) feels the need to preface a statement with "I'm not racist, but..." or "I'm a very tolerant person, but..."
I just brace for impact since the most blatantly racist statements end up following. Not always, but very often. It's almost like their attempt at convincing themselves of how openminded they are rather than any potential audience.
Over and over again it's demonstrated to me if people are that self conscious about it, then appearance of racism is more of a worry for them than honestly asking "is what I'm saying a reflection fundamentally fucked up beliefs?"

[Zhen]

Nicely put...ie I agree, lol!

I find though that because I am COMPLETELY HONEST in a country that does not favour the style sometimes I can get labelled "a bit racist" however there is no mal intent- I think being familiar to some extent with 3 completely diverse cultures I am just expressing an honesty based on comparative observations. I find that the people most likely to mistake this for "racism" is the people who are typically of one ethnicity and have not set foot outside their backyard, or mix with people of different ethnicities to their own.

I think you hit the nail on the head there...perhaps what makes something racist is if it derives from blatant ignorance and mal-intent!

Originally Posted by rwyatt365 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think that the "nugget" in racism is an expression of malicious or derogatory intent. A person can express an honest opinion that might be construed as racist but - in my opinion - if there is no mal-intent then it is their honest though or opinion. Before pulling out the "race card" - were I presented with that thought - I would inquire into the persons motivation for it, in an effort to divine their intent. If I were to detect simply the honest expression of a thought I would offer a "second opinion" in an attempt to edify them, and perhaps alter that thought. However if I detect mal-intent then I would "walk away" and leave them to their ignorance.

---------- Post added 09-24-2011 at 10:19 PM ----------

Thanks I think this is a nice perspective too...

is it based on fact or assumption or better yet PREsumption?

	Originally Posted by ManWithNoName To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is the complaint based on actual behavior? Then no it's not really racist. It is based upon what you think the person will do based upon their ethnicity? (ex. he is black and therefore a thug) then yes it's racist.

---------- Post added 09-24-2011 at 10:23 PM ----------

Originally Posted by DaMonkey To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Wheres the line? There is no line. Asians are bad drivers, Indians own gas stations, white people are arrogant and black people love watermelon flavored stuff & fried chicken but I mean honestly who wouldn't. These are justs facts they are not racist. The only racism is genacide and slavory... but that is the way of civalized man, right? So there is no line. Society moves the line as they see fit. But we are INTJs who cares what society thinks. Where do you think the line is?

lol you're joking right? as far as generalisations go I wouldn't agree with any of those...not in my end of town anyway! I haven't actually known any INTJs to really care what society thinks...(??!!) I think as I go through reading these, the picture of the line is being formed...

---------- Post added 09-24-2011 at 10:28 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Subgenius To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Eh, slavery as an institution is really racist/ethnocentric. Africans sold off Africans back in the day, and now Mexicans and peoples of the former Soviet satellite states sell off their own too. Like it's been said racism can be when you predict outcomes based on race or ethnicity or apply outcomes to a race based on one of it's participants. With racism/ethnocentrism there is generally a feeling of superiority attached to it. Though I think sometimes honesty and racism intermix. If you are driving through the Orange Mound area of Memphis or South Memphis, you might be scared of the black people you see. Why? Because it is black gangs central and people get shot all time, including on the street. Collateral damage is frequent. Is that racist? Possibly, but the fact that your delivery/girlfriend/friend/favorite restaurant is there puts you on guard, and honestly, it's for a good reason. Death is pretty permanent, and it's pretty cheap in the areas you pass through.

I think that bit could be where as your typical INTJ I could get misinterpreted...however if the accuser were to hang around me long enough they would realise there IS no racial distinction about it, lol

---------- Post added 09-24-2011 at 10:31 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Philanthropist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Racism - purporting the idea that one or more racial groups are categorically inferior to another/others. Racial prejudice - believing you can categorically predict the actions of another based on race. Honesty - the likelihood that another person will act in a certain way due to race when it's based on actual data. Not categorically condemning a person based on race, but for instance admitting that black people are more likely to commit murder than white people in the U.S. (statistically shown to be true). Also in the honesty category would be personal preference type statements. Professing dislike or discomfort with a particular racial culture or not being attracted to members of a certain racial group is often called racist which is pretty ridiculous. This is where I get caught out alot I think...it's almost like society has become so politically correct we are no longer allowed to have preferences because liking one thing more is somehow elevating one culture or race and we must ALL be EQUAL....yes it's ridiculous but I find so many people who think this way! ---------- Post added 09-24-2011 at 12:37 AM ---------- This is racially prejudiced, but not racist.

---------- Post added 09-24-2011 at 10:37 PM ----------

Originally Posted by AureliaSeverina To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think the operative word here is "cultures". Many of the examples you quoted might have to do more with culture than race as a genetic thingy. Also, back in the days when the Germans were a marauder society, so was everybody else, including the French etc. Plus, there is so much genetic mixing in Europe that you can't really speak of different races (and there are scientiest who argue that there are no human races at at all on a genetic level). After all, 25%(hope I got this right) of English males have German genes, yet England imports dustbins from Germany because they can't even make simple things like that themselves. The reason why they can't is to do with the education system, not with genes. Having said that, I find it puzzling how people developed such varying cultures in the first place. By cultures I don't mean art, music etc, but the general mentality. It might sound like a stereotype, but it does seem true that most people from a particular country will share a common outlook and way of thinking. That makes me wonder how and when a particular way of thinking became acceptable and what advantages people got from agreeing with it when it was "introduced" and not yet established as the norm. [/off topic]

yes CULTURES would be the word...I think people with no attention to details often misinterpret this sharing of common culture-values, behaviours etc as being racist if you identify this...again I think it stems from ignorance of the target culture.

---------- Post added 09-24-2011 at 10:40 PM ----------

Originally Posted by ChiralClockwise To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Everything here is dead on but especially the first sentence. When someone I'm talking to (especially new acquaintances) feels the need to preface a statement with "I'm not racist, but..." or "I'm a very tolerant person, but..." I just brace for impact since the most blatantly racist statements end up following. Not always, but very often. It's almost like their attempt at convincing themselves of how openminded they are rather than any potential audience. Over and over again it's demonstrated to me if people are that self conscious about it, then appearance of racism is more of a worry for them than honestly asking "is what I'm saying a reflection fundamentally fucked up beliefs?"

okay that's not me...phew I guess I'm NOT a racist..surprise surprise! I think I just get HIGHLY misunderstood about everything in my geography...what's new.

[AureliaSeverina]

Originally Posted by Purgatid To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The problem is when people believe that these genetic differences explains a behavior. It's the same as subscribing to the theory that most of our behavior is because of our genes, as opposed to our behavior being determined because of social interaction. If black people were prone to crime - then black children who have been adopted by white people would be prone to crime as well. If black people were prone to crime, then black people who are well off, run their own businesses, have steady middle class jobs would also be prone to crime. And they aren't. Therefor, the rational conclusion would be to say that criminality is not based on race, but rather on social status. This would be consistant with what we know so far. .

Here in the UK adoption agencies have trouble finding adoptive parents for black babies. The reason is that there are not enough black middle class families to give the babies to, but the agencies are supposed to place the children with a family of the same race so that they can "grow up in their own culture". Note: the reason is not so that other kids won't ask "Hey, why are you black when your parents are white?". That makes it sound like culture was genetic. From what I can tell, most black middle class families have a very similar lifestyle and values to white middle class families. So what is this black culture supposed to be? Drug dealing gangsters who listen to rap all day and kill each other over silly territorial squabbles? That sound like a macho male underclass culture to me and it's more or less the same for white underclass men, only some of them might not like rap music. I think this policy tries to be politically correct but ends up being racist, because it assumes that black kids are born with a certain culture but fails to define what that culture might be.
The other day I heard an interview with a black woman who was adopted by white middle class people. They told her that she was adopted early on and she was fine with it and had absolutely no problem.

[Paul Siraisi]

Racism: 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior. 2. a policy, system of government, etc., based on such a doctrine. 3. hatred or intolerance of another race or races. - Random House Webster's

[ZincLysine]

Honest = Preference towards people of a certain ethinic dispostion

Racism = Actions that are preducjice and inequitable due to someone being from a certain ethinic dispostion

[Shadizar]

The line is drawn by those who may be offended. In my experience, those who claim others to be racists liars cheaters etc, are themselves racists liars or cheaters.

[Haumea]

Racism is asserting or concluding that by virtue of belonging to a race, some or any given individual must necessarily possess the traits commonly or statistically associated with that race.

Observing that some races tend be on average different from other races isn't racist. To assert that it is is in contravention of truth and reality.

In other words, if reality, or truth, is racist (as neo-Marxists define it via their practices and arguments, if not formally), then being racist isn't that bad, because being dishonest is bad, so one can't really be that good while being dishonest.

[zibber]

ps. One can be honestly, sincerely, authentically racist.

[DaMonkey]

	Originally Posted by Zhen To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	---------- Post added 09-24-2011 at 10:23 PM ---------- lol you're joking right? as far as generalisations go I wouldn't agree with any of those...not in my end of town anyway! I haven't actually known any INTJs to really care what society thinks...(??!!) I think as I go through reading these, the picture of the line is being formed...

Kind of joking. Firstly I say in the post I do not care what society thinks. SO I imagine that means I do not care what society thinks, just going out on a ledge there.

Secondly, if you live in some white towns were there are 4 or 5 people of different race you wouldn’t understand. If you live in some mixed culture small town you wouldn’t understand. I lived in Philadelphia for 3 years. It is probably in the Top 3 or 5 most culturally diverse cities in the US. If you lived there you would understand. You would understand that stereotypes and generalizations were made that way for a reason. You would understand that Jerry Spring isn’t a joke those black girls honestly do not know who their babies father is.

Sorry to break your sheltered bubble. Go be worldly.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Philanthropist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Racism - purporting the idea that one or more racial groups are categorically inferior to another/others. Racial prejudice - believing you can categorically predict the actions of another based on race. Honesty - the likelihood that another person will act in a certain way due to race when it's based on actual data. Not categorically condemning a person based on race, but for instance admitting that black people are more likely to commit murder than white people in the U.S. (statistically shown to be true).

Yes.

The difference between racial prejudice and racism is a very important distinction. The term racism gets tossed around a bit too freely without people really understanding it's meaning.

But I'd argue that your honesty example of blacks being more likely to commit murder in the US is better accounted for by the strong link between low-SES conditions and violence, rather than race itself as a predictor of violence. As such, although honest, it's a bit misleading... which ends up feeding back into racial prejudice (and sometimes racism).

[Seriously]

	Its also true that white people can't jump or dance. Thats just plan fact... I mean read a book or watch "White Men Can't Jump", Woody Harrelson is pretty good as a white man.

Well you can't argue with evidence like that.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[zibber]

	Originally Posted by DaMonkey To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Its also true that white people can't jump or dance. Thats just plan fact... I mean read a book or watch "White Men Can't Jump", Woody Harrelson is pretty good as a white man.

Apologies. I thought you were being serious, but you're clearly a satirist.

[Daxxon37]

The line is the same line that separates science and opinion.
There are undeniable genetic differences between races.
I'm white.
The chick I love is black.
Who really gives a shit as long as the babies don't come out like mules or ligers?

[IchibanDasai]

Originally Posted by DaMonkey To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Wheres the line? There is no line. Asians are bad drivers, Indians own gas stations, white people are arrogant and black people love watermelon flavored stuff & fried chicken but I mean honestly who wouldn't. These are justs facts they are not racist. The only racism is genacide and slavory... but that is the way of civalized man, right? So there is no line. Society moves the line as they see fit. But we are INTJs who cares what society thinks. Where do you think the line is?

Wut. I mean...wut. I...I don't even know where to-...


Anyway, I was actually thinking of this earlier myself while watching a documentary called, 'Bleach, Nip, Tuck: The White Beauty Myth'. As the title suggests, people of various ethnic backgrounds vied to fit into the ideal 'European' image of beauty with the use of plastic surgery, etc.

I caught myself on a double-standard when I realized that I felt slightly uncomfortable when I saw a few classifieds of those excluding 'Asian' or 'black' women or men, saying, 'I am not at all racist, it is just not my preference.' I then caught myself and wondered if I would be a hypocrite if I were to be a little bothered about it, considering that I honestly tend to prefer men of European descent the least, although I am not at all racist towards white people. To me, I find that my ideal of physical beauty is geared towards men of more 'mixed' traits - characteristics commonly found in Middle Eastern, Mediterranean, North Indian, etc. I realized that I indeed tend to be attracted to a specific type myself. Does that make me racist? Not at all, in my opinion.

It is said that heterozygosity/genetic diversity promotes healthier offspring (especially common knowledge when breeding plants and animals), so it made me wonder if that had anything to do with my preference for 'brown' types.

Because I am so fair, and have been taunted for being fair when I was younger at some points in my life, it perhaps has something to do with why I see a bit of colour as more appealing to me. When I think about it, everyone has their preferences, and their individual ideals of beauty that are not always consistent with the ideal European standard perpetuated by the media. I don't think it makes anyone racist to prefer a certain type. Prejudice simply based on race, however, is a different story.