[Ray9]

I guess I was
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of Glenn Beck on this one.


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[eagleseven]

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's as evil and as orwellian as it gets because of the deceitful, invasive nature of how it's delivered.

You'd shit yourself if you attended a modern marketing class in business school.

[LaoTzu]

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I guess I was way ahead of Glenn Beck on this one. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You're selling jeans too?


It's ok. Not all of us are susceptible to such marketing.

[nowt]

It's not just the hat that's tinfoil. Ray9 has balls.

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I... was... Glenn Beck...

[Causa Mortis]

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I guess I was To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. of Glenn Beck on this one. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This strain of anti-freedom bullshit is what I find so objectionable in post-Friedman American conservatism.

The commercial's message is not objectionable. Its a modern expression of that crazy individualistic freedom meme that dates back to the early Greek tradition, that blossomed in the Renaissance, and which culminated in the American Revolution. So I guess I'm saying that if you hate the commercial, you hate the American revolution and, by default, the best parts of America.

[Haumea]

Meh...it's mindless pandering to youthful vapidity and stupidity more so than actual promotion of revolution.

[Imperator]

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I guess I was To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. of Glenn Beck on this one. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Yay status quo? Yay conformity? Yay Powers That Be?

So what you're telling me is you're behind Obama 110%, no matter what he does?

[annaelizabeth]

All the more reasons for me to buy Levis. I absolutely oppose everything Beck stands for. He sees a conspiracy socialist slant in EVERYTHING. It is bordering on paranoid.

[Nemesis]

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I guess I was To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. of Glenn Beck on this one.

That's kinda like being the tallest midget.

[Pandemonium]

Originally Posted by Causa Mortis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This strain of anti-freedom bullshit is what I find so objectionable in post-Friedman American conservatism. The commercial's message is not objectionable. Its a modern expression of that crazy individualistic freedom meme that dates back to the early Greek tradition, that blossomed in the Renaissance, and which culminated in the American Revolution. So I guess I'm saying that if you hate the commercial, you hate the American revolution and, by default, the best parts of America.

Don't worry, the Friedman's ghost will haunt them.

[HAL 9000]

	Originally Posted by Haumea To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Meh...it's mindless pandering to youthful vapidity and stupidity more so than actual promotion of revolution.

Yeah, looks like the same old song and dance to me. "Revolution" will always appeal to the young. Same goes for the red flag no matter what side of the political spectrum one stands on.

Example:
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You tell me it's the institution
Well, you know
You better free you mind instead

[Ray9]

What needs to explored is the wisdom of using madison avenue resources and tactics to steer human behavior to push an agenda that has nothing to do with selling a product but is embedded as an intended subliminal side effect. This is not art imitating life, it is the deliberate implanting of biased material to acheive an outcome. Now one could argue that this can be balanced by diverse points of view encapsulated in the messages but what happens when diversity disappears in a specific target group or when the advertising resources are all in the hands of like-minded associates? This is fertile ground for facism.

Perhaps the best defense is an intelligent, educated population that can recognize the veneer and is able to read between the lines, but that is hard to accomplish and frankly, unlikely. The point in the original thread was that subliminal messaging is just a tool and it can be used for evil as well as good and we should be on guard.

[annaelizabeth]

Forget subliminal, what do you think Fox news does every day? To use your words, "deliberate implanting of biased material to achieve an outcome." People are sucked into that like zombies on a regular basis. So if someone pushes their opinions on you on a subliminal level, it's wrong, but if they do it loudly on tv every day with biased information and fear mongering, it's ok. I find the second one more dangerous.

[Arkeph]

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The point in the original thread was that subliminal messaging is just a tool and it can be used for evil as well as good and we should be on guard.

On guard to the point of an outright ban on any advertising which could be construed to have any political or religious content, in fact. Some of my favorite highlights:

Originally Posted by Ray9

There is nothing wrong with using one's resources to do good but launching a massive, orwellian propaganda campaign that invades the living rooms of millions of unsuspecting viewers is nothing more than a dry run to big bortherhood. It doesn't matter if it comes from the left or the right, it's still evil. ... I think the FCC should ban so called public service ads and restrict all advertising to products and services. ... This method could just as well be employed to promote not-so-nice ideas like subtle racism or sexism. ... Actually I've concluded this myself. ["this" being the merits of using To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. to fight poverty] ... If FBL is allowed endulge in this subliminal charade what's to stop the government from using taxpayer money to fund promotional ads to convince citizens to collect food stamps or use national healthcare? Television is the most powerful and influential communication medium on Earth. The possibilities are endless-People better wake up. ... This is not a contest or a game. It is essentially a warning of what can happen if, through apathy, inattention or simple repetative attrition, the public mood can be manpulated by subtle mind control. As stated previously this is a dry run beginning with something innocuous like "be nice to each other". Once it is seen that no one questions it, it can then be applied in other ways to influence public opinion in a desired direction like national healthcare or illegal immigration.

I still think you're merely angered by the fact that anyone else besides conservative authority figures preaches virtue, though it takes quite a lot of self-righteousness to make such a theory credible.

[Distance]

Watched 2 minutes of it. Beck didn't cry so it bored me.

My only problem with the Levi's ad, was that it trivialised the essence of youth and change through consumerism.

[Autumnleaf]

Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

What needs to explored is the wisdom of using madison avenue resources and tactics to steer human behavior to push an agenda that has nothing to do with selling a product but is embedded as an intended subliminal side effect. This is not art imitating life, it is the deliberate implanting of biased material to acheive an outcome. Now one could argue that this can be balanced by diverse points of view encapsulated in the messages but what happens when diversity disappears in a specific target group or when the advertising resources are all in the hands of like-minded associates? This is fertile ground for facism. Perhaps the best defense is an intelligent, educated population that can recognize the veneer and is able to read between the lines, but that is hard to accomplish and frankly, unlikely. The point in the original thread was that subliminal messaging is just a tool and it can be used for evil as well as good and we should be on guard.

The best defense against this stuff is to prosecute people who instigate it and fund it, or quietly have them killed. The thing about Levis and other large companies is they are so big they have a captive audience. They don't need to use commercials to sell their stuff. Instead they use their stuff to give "social proof" to behaviors like drug use, rioting and unsafe sex. If you look at the leaders of large corporations many of them are on the boards of many different companies so they can push their agendas onto the population from various angles. George Soros is the face man for hundreds or thousands of people you don't see and who you will never see. They don't eat where you do, they don't shop where you do and they don't live where you do. You might meet some of them if you attend Yale or Harvard. If you are really smart you might end up working for them after you sign a nondisclosure clause. The people who run the world are safely anonymous.

[Paul Siraisi]

	Originally Posted by HAL 9000 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Originally Posted by Haumea Meh...it's mindless pandering to youthful vapidity and stupidity more so than actual promotion of revolution. Yeah, looks like the same old song and dance to me. "Revolution" will always appeal to the young.

Anyone following the Wall St 'protests'? It's not known what exactly they're protesting. Something about evil money. Just a cool social activity for overgrown, well-off children.

[Autumnleaf]

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Anyone following the Wall St 'protests'? It's not known what exactly they're protesting. Something about evil money. Just a cool social activity for overgrown, well-off children.

I'm sure it has nothing to do with trillion dollar tax payer funded bank bailouts that have funneled cheap money to Wall Street. I'm positive the protesters don't think that hard. They probably were bored and figured getting arrested on a lark would be a fun night out.

[Causa Mortis]

Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

What needs to explored is the wisdom of using madison avenue resources and tactics to steer human behavior to push an agenda that has nothing to do with selling a product but is embedded as an intended subliminal side effect. This is not art imitating life, it is the deliberate implanting of biased material to acheive an outcome. Now one could argue that this can be balanced by diverse points of view encapsulated in the messages but what happens when diversity disappears in a specific target group or when the advertising resources are all in the hands of like-minded associates? This is fertile ground for facism. Perhaps the best defense is an intelligent, educated population that can recognize the veneer and is able to read between the lines, but that is hard to accomplish and frankly, unlikely. The point in the original thread was that subliminal messaging is just a tool and it can be used for evil as well as good and we should be on guard.

So instead of lightly suggestive , its only OK when you're screaming your message red-faced into a microphone while having it flash yellow lights at you while screening up to the second imagery below?

[blueback]

	Originally Posted by Causa Mortis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So I guess I'm saying that if you hate the commercial, you hate the American revolution and, by default, the best parts of America.

	Originally Posted by Haumea To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Meh...it's mindless pandering to youthful vapidity and stupidity more so than actual promotion of revolution.

I'm gonna have to go with Haumea. It looked like your average, run of the mill, plane jane Sensing Feeling bullshit to me. I mean, come on, "You are magnificent?" "You can't escape death, but you can escape death in life, sometimes?"

You know what that sounds like to me? It sounds like the kind of crap I used to feed to drunk chicks at parties to talk them out of their panties. You know that we could die at any moment, and I don't want to die without ever having lived! What living can we do right now? Lets make some memories. I've never felt this way about anyone. You're a unique and special snowflake. Etc.

It's just Levi's trying to get our juices flowing so that we'll take a nice hard denim cock. metaphorically, of course.

In a larger sense, it's just standard advertising. Have you seen those stupid adds where orange flowers bloom all across the country, or red paper airplanes blanket a city, or a guy carries around a giant number? They're desperately trying to find a tangible way to represent an intangible idea. You can't see radio waves, and you don't care about them anyway, but you can see flowers, and everyone likes flowers just like everyone likes talking to their friends...via radio waves.

Levi's is just trying to make that "I'm in my favorite pair of jeans; now I can take on the world" feeling into something tangible. It's pretty basic. I'm kind of surprised so many of you are taking it at face value.

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What needs to explored is the wisdom of using madison avenue resources and tactics to steer human behavior to push an agenda that has nothing to do with selling a product but is embedded as an intended subliminal side effect.

It was entirely about selling a product.

Well, in a larger sense, you are correct. Since it didn't push a particular type of jean, it was really more about selling the Levi's brand in general. I don't know enough to say, but I bet if you look closely you'll see those models wearing Levi's brand everything (they make more than just pants).

These days the brand can be more valuable than any product. Products come and go, but brands last forever. Still, in the end it's always about selling products (or services).

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This is fertile ground for facism.

Yeah. I'm sure the Madison Avenue elite are going to be quite supportive of facism.

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Perhaps the best defense is an intelligent, educated population that can recognize the veneer and is able to read between the lines, but that is hard to accomplish and frankly, unlikely.

Still seems like it's worth working towards. I think kids should take marketing classes in elementary school. Make them deconstruct ads, and film their own, and see how to sell a product and they'll be immunized against the stuff they're subjected to by the professionals.

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The point in the original thread was that subliminal messaging is just a tool and it can be used for evil as well as good and we should be on guard.

There wasn't anything subliminal about that Levi's ad. Unless you're accusing them of slipping single frames of instructions in there or something.

[babsa]

	Originally Posted by Haumea To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Meh...it's mindless pandering to youthful vapidity and stupidity more so than actual promotion of revolution.

I agree with Haumea... not to mention levi's are my favorite jeans, so it would take a lot for me to boycott them... they could open a thousand chinese sweatshops and i think i would still buy them if they were of the same quality....

[Causa Mortis]

	Originally Posted by blueback To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm gonna have to go with Haumea. It looked like your average, run of the mill, plane jane Sensing Feeling bullshit to me. I mean, come on, "You are magnificent?" "You can't escape death, but you can escape death in life, sometimes?"

Freedom is, to a large extent, a very grand lie, or at least exaggeration.

	It's just Levi's trying to get our juices flowing so that we'll take a nice hard denim cock. metaphorically, of course.

To be candid, I find this particular brand of anti-individualism to be just as repugnant as Ray9's.

Some people prefer to spend their time earning money to spend on brand name goods like Levi's Jeans. Others prefer to spend the same time posting hypocritical bullshit on internet forums. Both are arbitrary and, when framed negatively, kind of dumb, until you begin to appreciate that different people have different preferences.

[blueback]

	Originally Posted by Causa Mortis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	To be candid, I find this particular brand of anti-individualism to be just as repugnant as Ray9's.

I didn't think that my post addressed individualism at all. Care to elaborate?

[Causa Mortis]

	Originally Posted by blueback To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I didn't think that my post addressed individualism at all. Care to elaborate?

Opining on how stupid anyone who responds to advertising must be is, plainly, hostile to individual choices about consumption and labor/leisure tradeoffs.

People have preferences. Some people really like to work hard and buy fancy stuff. Others prefer to take more leisure. Some people like Levis. Some people like Lucky's. Some like Kirkland. A harangue against Kirkland, or Lucky's, or Levis, or the underlying reasons that people may like those brands, is a harangue against individual choice.

[blueback]

	Originally Posted by Causa Mortis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Opining on how stupid anyone who responds to advertising must be is, plainly, hostile to individual choices about consumption and labor/leisure tradeoffs...A harangue against Kirkland, or Lucky's, or Levis, or the underlying reasons that people may like those brands, is a harangue against individual choice.

Well, I can see how you'd interpret my post as haranguing against SF's, since I called them stupid. But much of the post was a technical explanation of how marketing works...not a condemnation of anyone it works on.

I dunno, seems to me you're REALLY stretching. I didn't say what you claim I said, and even if I had, saying that doesn't equate to the conclusion you concluded. How exactly does thinking that people who "respond" to advertising must be stupid get to the idea that individual choice is bad?

There was that spot where I suggested immunizing kids against marketing by having them actually do some marketing. So it could have been a harangue against the uneducated...in a sense.