[Distance]

If you're a white collar woman who brings in a decent income, I strongly discourage marriage unless you're both bringing in sufficient income to hire someone to cook and clean. No matter how open-minded men are, there are very few who can break out of gender bias and self-centricity.

[Muse]

	Originally Posted by Thinktress To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Not to mention that couples where both parties are more highly educated are more likely to be able to afford to have domestic help.

This is my plan. Why divide chores when i can buy them. More time for both of us; hobbies and together time. Already have a robot vacuum, excellent investment.

I want the whole pie
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[AnaK]

	Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This is my plan. Why divide chores when i can buy them. More time for both of us; hobbies and together time. Already have a robot vacuum, excellent investment. I want the whole pie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

That'd be perfect!!! A cleaning service once or twice a week. I especially hate cleaning tubs and showers. That is so hard on your knees. Bathroom floors are hard too sometimes. It sould be nice to have someone come in and do the hard stuff. Loading and emptying the dishwasher and doing laundry are not that difficult. Cooking can be easy or hard, and easy or hard to clean up after, depending on the menu.

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by AnaK To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A cleaning service once or twice a week.

You guys must be made of money. Each visit is about $100 in a 2-bedroom house; once or twice a week is $400 - $800. That's rent on a whole new place, AKA your retirement money.

[AnaK]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You guys must be made of money. Each visit is about $100 in a 2-bedroom house; once or twice a week is $400 - $800. That's rent on a whole new place, AKA your retirement money.

Bummer. That's too much money!

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by AnaK To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Bummer. That's too much money!

Cleaning doesn't take that long. Put on some Aerosmith or whatever and by the end of the album you're done.

[Muse]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You guys must be made of money. Each visit is about $100 in a 2-bedroom house; once or twice a week is $400 - $800. That's rent on a whole new place, AKA your retirement money.

local Professional service is $80 for two workers for two hours(4 labor hours at 20ea.), my mum uses them often. That's enough to get the bathrooms and floors/countertops/whatever done once a week, which should be all they need, maybe more.

Add in dishwasher, washer/dryer, robovac and tile/garage robovac; most of the big time takers are done.

Or I can higher a younger half employed friend for $10 an hour, I know plenty that are always interested. Anyways, as long as it's less than my own wage and I'm full employed, it makes economic sense.

I want to cook though, i like cooking.. Or we could cook together, that sounds fun
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[plotthickens]

Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

local Professional service is $80 for two workers for two hours(4 labor hours at 20ea.), my mum uses them often. That's enough to get the bathrooms and floors/countertops/whatever done once a week, which should be all they need, maybe more. Add in dishwasher, washer/dryer, robovac and tile/garage robovac; most of the big time takers are done. Or I can higher a younger half employed friend for $10 an hour, I know plenty that are always interested. Anyways, as long as it's less than my own wage and I'm full employed, it makes economic sense. I want to cook though, i like cooking.. Or we could cook together, that sounds fun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'll never understand this. "I make $600 a week. I can spend $100 a week on cleaning and save myself 4 hours!"

Those 4 hours will not be spent making the money back. That money, which could go to retirement or better income opportunities, is literally flushed away.

I guess I'd rather retire a decade earlier than save a few hours a week.

[AnaK]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'll never understand this. "I make $600 a week. I can spend $100 a week on cleaning and save myself 4 hours!" Those 4 hours will not be spent making the money back. That money, which could go to retirement or better income opportunities, is literally flushed away. I guess I'd rather retire a decade earlier than save a few hours a week.

What if you make more than $600/week and you can pay less than $100/week? I mean, I could live like a total miser and never spend money on anything, right? If men can pay for someone to do the yard and change the oil, why can't I pay to have someone scrub the shower?

[Muse]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'll never understand this. "I make $600 a week. I can spend $100 a week on cleaning and save myself 4 hours!"

600 a week would be 15 an hour(after taxes, at 40hr week), to which i would higher the non-professional for 10 an hour, so probably 40 a week. Don't know if that clears anything up.

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Those 4 hours will not be spent making the money back. That money, which could go to retirement or better income opportunities, is literally flushed away.

Money is secondary. Quality time/life with my wife/family/friends and hobbies is priority. To me at least. If i have a kid though that changes a bit of course.

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I guess I'd rather retire a decade earlier than save a few hours a week.

Its all relative, and neither of us can guarantee we will make it there anyways, unfortunately.

Plus, i don't think i would ever want to fully retire. Work is sort of a hobby to me too.

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by AnaK To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What if you make more than $600/week and you can pay less than $100/week? I mean, I could live like a total miser and never spend money on anything, right? If men can pay for someone to do the yard and change the oil, why can't I pay to have someone scrub the shower?

You "can" do whatever you want. I just don't understand it, see below.

	Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Quality time/life with my wife/family/friends and hobbies is priority.

Which is why I want to retire as early as I can. A month of clean house now is (let's say) three weeks of retirement later. I'd gladly clean my own house for two years to retire a year earlie. And two more years, and two more years, and all of them -- that's a decade or two. That's 45 or 55 instead of 65.

[Muse]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A month of clean house now is (let's say) three weeks of retirement later.

80 a week, so 106 a week retirement? Not buying it.

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	80 a week, so 106 a week retirement? Not buying it.

Not sure what you're asking, but I'm really bad at math. So let's check it.

What is $80 a week, every week at compound interest (A savings account... monthly calculations maybe?) for, let's say, 30 years?


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$80 a week makes $320 a month

• Start with $0
• $320 a month at 3% interest
• compounded monthly (standard) would net you: 186,941.99

If one's house is paid for, one might assume a yearly need for about 40K in living expenses. The housecleaner eats 4.6 years of retirement.

You're right, Muse! It's not 106 weeks, it's 240 weeks of retirement you're flushing away. Keep in mind 3% is a horrible rate and most long-term plans do rather better.


I'd much rather scrub a toilet a week so to retire at 60 rather than 65.

[Muse]

	Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	80 a week, so 106 a week retirement?

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You're right, Muse! It's not 106 weeks, it's 240 weeks of retirement you're flushing away.

Not even what i said.

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A month of clean house now is (let's say) three weeks of retirement later. I'd gladly clean my own house for two years to retire a year earlie. And two more years, and two more years, and all of them -- that's a decade or two. That's 45 or 55 instead of 65.

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'd much rather scrub a toilet a week so to retire at 60 rather than 65.

Not even what you said.

Look, its cool. Don't worry about it. Your numbers are everywhere but i see your point. And heres mine; retirement is boring and i rather enjoy life while i'm somewhat young and alive.

Stay in school kids. Math and Reading.

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by AnaK To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm not sure that's true. I think sometimes marriage does degenerate into chore lists and logistics.

That's roommates, not marriage.

	Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Not even what I said.

You're free to try to communicate more clearly.

	Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Not even what you said.

We have a 6-bedroom house; one house cleaning is over $200. It would most definitely add up to a decade or two.

	Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Look, its cool. Don't worry about it. Your numbers are everywhere but i see your point. And heres mine; retirement is boring and i rather enjoy life while i'm somewhat young and alive.

"Fuck delayed gratification and planning for the future"? "Live fast, die young, leave a good-looking corpse"? How pedestrian.

	Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Stay in school kids. Math and Reading.

I have discalcula. I'm rather proud of the fact that I tried to do math; it's usually way beyond my confidence to do so. If you're going to take potshots at my attempts, feel free to try to do better.

[AnaK]

Plot, inflation will cancel out some, if not all, of the interest you'd earn in a savings account. I'd rather have a smaller house that I can afford to have cleaned. Smaller houses are easier to rent and sell anyway, so a better investment.

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by AnaK To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'd rather have a smaller house that I can afford to have cleaned. Smaller houses are easier to rent and sell anyway, so a better investment.

2 bedrooms is a 'large' house? That's an average apartment.

	Originally Posted by AnaK To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Plot, inflation will cancel out some, if not all, of the interest you'd earn in a savings account.

Which is why other types of investments were suggested. It doesn't matter what types of rationalizations anyone gives for their choices. You do as you want, and you sleep in that bed... but there are only 3 ways to get rich: inherit, work a crapton, or work and save.

You folks who dream of servants had better get very good-paying jobs and work a crapton at them.

[AnaK]

Plot, you said you have a 6 bedroom house, that's a big house, and where my 'I'd prefer a smaller house's, comment comes from.

Many investments barely beat inflation.

[WeAreAllKosh]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	We have a 6-bedroom house; one house cleaning is over $200. It would most definitely add up to a decade or two.

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	2 bedrooms is a 'large' house? That's an average apartment.

The perceived size of one's home depends in part on how many people live in it. How many people live in your 6-bedroom house, plotthickens?

[Ricardo Diaz]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If you're a white collar woman who brings in a decent income, I strongly discourage marriage unless you're both bringing in sufficient income to hire someone to cook and clean. No matter how open-minded men are, there are very few who can break out of gender bias and self-centricity.

This. Just pay someone to do the dirty work. I haven't done a shred of housework in my life, I throw things on the floor and drop ash on the floor if an ashtray isn't nearby. The unimportance and nagging OCD like behavior of cleaning up and organizing stuff makes it demeaning and useless. Just pay someone to clean up the crap and live happily like a pig. Problem solved.

Edit: just read plotthicken's compound interest post and I'm going to call you out on that one. That's just ridiculous. You make too many assumptions, most obvious being whether you'll live to 30 years from now. There is also inflation, your $200k after 30 years will have the buying power of about $20k today. And most of all it's just a miserable life if you're going to nickel & dime, and live like a poor peasant so that one day you may get some freedom. Your money won't be worth as much & retirement isn't as awesome or permanent as you might imagine. The sensible thing to do is increase income, and at least live comfortably during the present and near future.

[plotthickens]

Originally Posted by Ricardo Diaz To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Edit: just read plotthicken's compound interest post and I'm going to call you out on that one. That's just ridiculous. You make too many assumptions, most obvious being whether you'll live to 30 years from now. There is also inflation, your $200k after 30 years will have the buying power of about $20k today. And most of all it's just a miserable life if you're going to nickel & dime, and live like a poor peasant so that one day you may get some freedom. Your money won't be worth as much & retirement isn't as awesome or permanent as you might imagine. The sensible thing to do is increase income, and at least live comfortably during the present and near future.

1. Might not be alive 30 years from now? Call me an optimist.
2. Our savings go into rental properties. No real problem with inflation there.
3. Miserable means feet up in a reasonably clean home with almost no debts, worries, cleaning crew knocking, or distractions and early retirement coming up quick? Hand me a plate of that!
   1. Your descriptions of your living pattern seem rather miserable to me; that is, could be rather easily classified as symptoms of depression.

Once again, I'm not saying one way is right or wrong; I'm saying that my husband and I don't want to be 75 and still have to work. Instead, we are planning to retire early and do the things we love. Delayed gratification may be difficult in the short run but pays off down the road.
... for us, at least.

[Cooper]

Considering that Social Sercurity is not going to be around when most of the people here (if not all) do hit retirement age, and the stock market ain't what it used to be, why spend money on cleaning up your own mess? I'm an old fart, I guess, my Mother taught me to clean up after myself and not leave things for other people to do for me. Do your chores, then go play. Be responsible, not lazy.

[AnaK]

	Originally Posted by Cooper To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Considering that Social Sercurity is not going to be around when most of the people here (if not all) do hit retirement age, and the stock market ain't what it used to be, why spend money on cleaning up your own mess? I'm an old fart, I guess, my Mother taught me to clean up after myself and not leave things for other people to do for me. Do your chores, then go play. Be responsible, not lazy.

Ever pay to have your oil changed or car repaired?
Do all of your own yard work?
Ever eat out at a restaurant?

What if you're a high powered corporate attorney who bills at $400/hour? Should you still clean your own tub and mop your own floors? Would that make your mother then decide you're not lazy?

Could you really call a woman with a 12 hour work day lazy?

I've worked with several men who send their laundry out. They say it's worth it to them, but that's too rich for my blood. Still, they make what I make.

[Pandemonium]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If you're a white collar woman who brings in a decent income, I strongly discourage marriage unless you're both bringing in sufficient income to hire someone to cook and clean. No matter how open-minded men are, there are very few who can break out of gender bias and self-centricity.

I am just going to throw something out in the open. How about not marrying someone who is messy? I said it now...

I learned at 20 years, if a woman is messy at her place, she is going to be messy when living together. Cleaning up after her was a pain in the ass.

[AnaK]

	Originally Posted by Pandemonium To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I am just going to throw something out in the open. How about not marrying someone who is messy? I said it now... I learned at 20 years, if a woman is messy at her place, she is going to be messy when living together. Cleaning up after her was a pain in the ass.

Or....not marrying a man who expects you to cook and clean up after him?

But, no matter how clean you are, shower stalls are never fun to clean.