[hum]

Originally Posted by BallentineChen To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If you're concerned about not knowing how to express yourself to others, I've learned that different ways of wording sensitive thoughts can make the difference between an accepting reception or TMI, a lot of it has to do with how you frame the statement. One technique is preparing the listener for your revelation by first describing your personal experiences that led to this conclusion, instead of just stating it. Sometimes there are also popular memes that you can touch on that will grant you instant validation. I used to reject this approach of "tinting" the truth, because I believed in stating the truth and nothing but, but then I realized that some people aren't as masochistic as I am when it comes to self-awareness, and you need to make it more palatable for them. Besides, I believe there is value inherent in interaction, though that might not always seem true.

well, I have tried to express myself that way (explaining what led me to my thoughts, etc) but incoherent emotions (emotions that maybe I didn't noticed I felt) allways take my words away and I end up talking about something I didn't want to say instead, or just saying nothing about it.

	Originally Posted by BallentineChen To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But at the same time, it is important to be able to communicate honestly, otherwise we're just perpetuating fictions.

I have thinked about it, but I think that if I'm not talking about something then I can't really be dishonest about it (it depends of the person's point of view, what they decide to think based on how well they know me). In my best friend's case, because she knows me so well, she knows that what she thinks about how I am is not a fiction (even if it sounds weird, people can get to know you well even if you don't speak your mind about certain things).


I don't know if you get my point :P Anyways, I don't know the "real" reason for my behaviour. maybe it's because I'm too emotional, or just very private.

[manger]

Originally Posted by hum To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

well, I think she's not "odd", as you think. at least for me (as an INFJ that can relate to her behaviour), not revealing inner things (especially thoughts) is something natural. I don't know why is it. maybe it's because I'm afraid that people will try to change the way I think, or because I really don't know how to express myself to others. even my best friend, who has been sharing her thoughts with me for 12 years, wonder why I never tell her mines. and for the topic, I really don't find the two types so different. I think that the fact that we are more insecure than the INTJs is a positive thing (if that fact is true). I can't imagine myself taking all I think for granted.

Well, obviously it's not odd for you, because you can relate but to many outsiders it comes off as strange. If you are one of my closest friends, and I feel very comfortable telling you almost anything that's on my mind, but you can't or don't do the same, it throws off the level of intimacy of a relationship. Appropriate reciprocity and disclosure is one of the fundamental parts of creating bonds between humans. For example, if a stranger comes up to you and tells you that he cries during sex, it would be weird because most people would not be able to provide that level of information about themselves in an initial interaction. But, if you were one of the few who could, and were interested in vesting a relationship with this guy, you would not hesitate to respond with a similarly private detail about yourself.

By not reciprocating with the same level of information, you are sending the message that you don't think that level of disclosure is appropriate (thus saying that you don't want to be that kind of friend), and even making the other person feel rejected.

In what situations would insecurity be a good thing?

[hum]

	Originally Posted by manger To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well, obviously it's not odd for you, because you can relate but to many outsiders it comes off as strange.

I mean, it shouldn't be considered "odd" for people in general (in my opinion). afterall, what's odd? just someone's characteristics that are different from ours? characteristics we are not used to? that's why I allways try to comprehend people's reasons, and don't categorize them inmediatelly like that

Originally Posted by manger To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If you are one of my closest friends, and I feel very comfortable telling you almost anything that's on my mind, but you can't or don't do the same, it throws off the level of intimacy of a relationship. Appropriate reciprocity and disclosure is one of the fundamental parts of creating bonds between humans. For example, if a stranger comes up to you and tells you that he cries during sex, it would be weird because most people would not be able to provide that level of information about themselves in an initial interaction. But, if you were one of the few who could, and were interested in vesting a relationship with this guy, you would not hesitate to respond with a similarly private detail about yourself. By not reciprocating with the same level of information, you are sending the message that you don't think that level of disclosure is appropriate (thus saying that you don't want to be that kind of friend), and even making the other person feel rejected.

well, I know it's true that interaction would be a lot easier if everyone is open to each other, but not everyone is like that. I know plenty of people that are not INFJs and prefer to be private about themselves. in my case it just doesn't come as easy as for you.
besides, if you could get to understand this person, to try to accept people as they are, I'm sure reciprocity wouldn't be a barrier for you. It's just the way some people are.

	Originally Posted by manger To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In what situations would insecurity be a good thing?

overconfidence is not allways the solution. In many ways, insecurity opens the door to different options, something that someone allways confident wouldn't consider most of the times. Also people can get to see you as an arrogant person if you are overly confident (that's never good in my opinion)

sorry if I sound harsh or something. opening a debate in here is not my intention.

[44sunsets]

	Originally Posted by BallentineChen To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm wondering what are some of the perceptions of INFJs are among INTJs here. Aside from the playful jabs at NFs, these two types share the same dominant function, Ni. I'm interested in this as an INFJ.

I'm an INFJ man and am often perceived as needy and insecure by INTJ women. Of course, INTJ women are probably the toughest yardstick against which to be measured...

[faedra]

	Originally Posted by 44sunsets To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm an INFJ man and am often perceived as needy and insecure by INTJ women.

And here's an INTJ female who'll scream if she hears the phrase 'insensitive hermit crab' and question 'why can't you be more feminine?!' one more time.

But on a more related note, I count two INFJs and one xNFJ among my good friends. We get each other's wild jumps of logic which don't make much sense to others, and work really well in a team - I take care of the more practical aspects while they do the 'people' bits, and serve as (admittedly much-needed) reminders to me that I don't know everything in the world.

[manger]

	Originally Posted by hum To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	overconfidence is not allways the solution. In many ways, insecurity opens the door to different options, something that someone allways confident wouldn't consider most of the times. Also people can get to see you as an arrogant person if you are overly confident (that's never good in my opinion)

There is a middle ground between overconfidence and insecurity - just plain old security and being comfortable with yourself.

[BallentineChen]

I don't know if always feeling secure is necessarily a good thing. America's automotive industry has shown that security and complacency can erode even our strongest industries. I think the best policy is to always be prepared for change and always seeking to improve, never rest on your laurels, never feel completely safe.

[Onward]

Originally Posted by Icristhus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think I've definitely seen this in action, myself. It can be extremely frustrating, really, since I've got the habit of trying to understand people I feel close enough to to tell all about myself, and get them to open up too... S'actually lead to a few fights, before I more or less gave up on the effort and resigned myself to a mystery. Oddly, that trait is an alluring thing to me -- too much curiosity, I suppose.

They are into being mysterious... and reading.

[44sunsets]

	Originally Posted by faedra To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And here's an INTJ female who'll scream if she hears the phrase 'insensitive hermit crab' and question 'why can't you be more feminine?!' one more time.

Well, at least you won't hear that from the INFJs :D

Interestingly enough, my ISTJ father always calls me pigheaded, recalcitrant and emotionally cold and selfish. He could be right. Of course, it could also be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Liason]

They're my favorite type aside from INTJ to converse with. Awesome

[Onward]

	Originally Posted by Liason To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	They're my favorite type aside from INTJ to converse with. Awesome

I agree! INFJ's are interesting conversationalists with a point of view. They tend to enjoy talking and listening. However, do you find some to hold grudges? I have ran into this, unfortunately, with a close INFJ family member.

[Eric86]

I don't hold grudges against anyone.

[True Rune]

Maybe it is an 'F' thing, to hold grudges? Or maybe it's personal..

[Saint]

Appreciative, though I wonder sometimes if they realize how they want things to work and how the world works are two different things.

But I base that off one one girl...

[Romeo]

They are very mysterious (and paradoxical) especially the very introverted ones. They are extremely private people.





Romeo added to this post, 12 minutes and 0 seconds later...

Originally Posted by Uytuun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Like I said, it was a neutral observation: my INFJ friend is terribly insecure*, considering that my experience with INFJs is limited to her, I put that my experience is limited. Since she is a wonderful girl and there is no "reason" for her to be insecure, I was wondering what could lie at the basis of it and since you seemed to be interested in INTJ-INFJ interaction I though you might care to elaborate, so I put that observation out there. I really don't get what attacks have to do with it unless you interpreted my first remark as addressing you personally, which would be strange, because I do not know you nor can I understand your psyche on the basis of a single post and the issue was about type, not individuals. And now please, yes, address the issue of your insecurity. *and not everyone uses such a category in a socially stigmatising way

THe INFJ woman that I know is extremely insecure, too, with no reason to be insecure. She holds a PhD from an Ivy League. She's also very Southern so coupled with the strong Fe, it's hard for me to know who she really is inside. I don't look at insecurity as always negative because if a person was totally secure there would be no room for personal growth. INTJ's are typically skeptical of Fe because they operate with Fi.

[Tuesday]

	Originally Posted by Saint To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Appreciative, though I wonder sometimes if they realize how they want things to work and how the world works are two different things.

I can't speak for everyone but one of my biggest frustrations is the difference between the two. I possess an idealistic view with pessimistic realism. It's a bit schizophrenic at times. But I think in the end they balance each other out, most of the time.

[Onward]

	Originally Posted by Ishida To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Maybe it is an 'F' thing, to hold grudges? Or maybe it's personal..

Yeah...I do think it is the "F" because the tendency to hold a grudge catches me off guard. There is a sense that I (and others) have to tip-toe around her sometimes and it is really about her feelings.





Onward added to this post, 2 minutes and 2 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by Eric86 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't hold grudges against anyone.

How do you resolve personal conflict?

[Eric86]

	Originally Posted by Onward To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	How do you resolve personal conflict?

The only time I've ever really had to deal with that is with my step-dad, and that's only because of his ego, mental disorders, his controlling/manipulative nature, and inability (or unwillingness, perhaps?) to understand my reasoning and thinking processes. I've tried time and time again to explain him things in a calm manner, without getting mad at him, but I can't get anywhere with him. Eventually, I just stopped having anything to do with him aside from if he wanted me to do some work around the house (I don't live with my family any more, btw.). If you can't make any sort of progress in situations like that, it's best just to walk away.


Aside from that, I don't have problems with anyone. I get along with everyone quite well. The only time anyone argues with me at all is online, and that's probably just due to the rather impersonal nature of communicating on forums (the only people who do that also have never talked to me before on instant messenger or anything else, so they really know nothing about me, and they're just projecting their assumptions on me because they think it's wrong for anyone to think differently from them; ironically, these people also claim to be Christians, and yet they still see fit to treat me like that, even though I am a Christian as well.).

[Onward]

Originally Posted by Eric86 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The only time I've ever really had to deal with that is with my step-dad, and that's only because of his ego, mental disorders, his controlling/manipulative nature, and inability (or unwillingness, perhaps?) to understand my reasoning and thinking processes. I've tried time and time again to explain him things in a calm manner, without getting mad at him, but I can't get anywhere with him. Eventually, I just stopped having anything to do with him aside from if he wanted me to do some work around the house (I don't live with my family any more, btw.). If you can't make any sort of progress in situations like that, it's best just to walk away. Aside from that, I don't have problems with anyone. I get along with everyone quite well. The only time anyone argues with me at all is online, and that's probably just due to the rather impersonal nature of communicating on forums (the only people who do that also have never talked to me before on instant messenger or anything else, so they really know nothing about me, and they're just projecting their assumptions on me because they think it's wrong for anyone to think differently from them; ironically, these people also claim to be Christians, and yet they still see fit to treat me like that, even though I am a Christian as well.).

What is your step-dad's type? I believe my INFJ sister would answer this question similiarly. That is really amazing. I understand why you say sometimes it is best to walk away from conflict or the potential for conflict. But, do you ever think at times you miss opportunities to grow because you may have a tendency to avoid conflict? Being an INTJ, I guess I like to be stretched by a spirited disagreement so long as the other person doesn't take it personally. (I get into trouble with others because of this tendency, however, I still need to know "why".)

[Eric86]

I'm guessing he'd be an ESFJ.


I don't really have a need to "grow" in that sense because I already have a very good understanding of pretty much every sort of debate topic there is, my stances on them are quite firm and have been thought about and researched very thoroughly (to the point where I know the difference between ones where there is, in fact, a more right side [which are few and far between], and ones that are more personal preference or more grey areas), and I can tell if someone is open-minded enough to actually listen to what I have to say instead of talking over me and putting me down (which happens the vast majority of the time, especially when I try to discuss anything with "Christians"
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); if I can tell that they're closed-minded (which is most people I've come across), I know exactly where the discussion/argument will go, so I don't even bother with it because I'd just be beating a dead horse and wasting time that I could spend doing other, more worthwhile things. For me, there's just no point in even trying.

[Antares]

The only INFJs I know are very secretive and always waits for you to make the first move. One is my ex-best friend and one is an acquaintance.

My best friend and I met at age 8; we hit it off instantly when we discovered that we're from the same country. We were both just INJs at the time although she always seemed like the T and I the F. Being introverts who are frankly not social enough, we found solace in each other's lack of other friends. As we were growing up, I became the extrovert in this particular relationship and she the introvert. I'd be the one making calls most of the time and planning get-togethers. I always shared with her my thoughts more than she decided to return the favor. Ever since she told me (her initiative) that I was her best friend, I trusted her completely and we shared intimate secrets. She left for another continent when we were 11; I was always the one initiating cyber-talks. I know it was her strong I; I totally understood being an introvert myself, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. We kept up the facade as 'Best Friends Forever' for about a year or two; I visited her three times via 13 hour overseas flights, but I found that we were drifting apart. It crushed me upon the realization, of course, but I refused to do anything about it. She was the unresponsive one; not me. If our relationship was destroyed, it'd be more her fault. I did my share and I'm not taking anymore crap. I got her to take the MBTI and I wasn't surprised. Her I is too obvious to be missed. Wasn't really sure about her N before because she kept going on about duty and what you're 'supposed' to do and all, but turns out she's N. Wasn't sure about her T or F because I frankly don't know her that intimately anymore. Her J is quite apparent. So now we've each gone our separate ways, hardly speaking, but I suspect it wouldn't have lasted long even if she remained in this country.

[Fuent]

whenever I talk to my infj friend about his problems with other people it's like he knows exactly how to solve them but he's too nice to be confrontational and risk their feelings. He seems to be very avoidant of any people conflicts where negative feelings may arise.

[Shaz]

	Originally Posted by Tuesday To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I can't speak for everyone but one of my biggest frustrations is the difference between the two. I possess an idealistic view with pessimistic realism. It's a bit schizophrenic at times. But I think in the end they balance each other out, most of the time.

I'm very happy to read this from someone else. Thank you!! It is a big problem for me too, because I can't help my longing for a peaceful, fair, etc, world, where people would actually listen to each other and [insert any kind of idealistic dream here]

Yet I cannot help but see how things are in reality (well, it's all subjective but you know what I mean). Especially since I've learnt about personality types, actually. I have so many NF friends (INFPs for most of them, and a couple of ENFJ) who see things in a simplistic manner, not understanding why people can't be as loving and selfless as they are. I know people can't help being what they are. How can you ask an ESTJ to become an NF?

I get very, very frustrated by it. I haven't found a solution to the problem yet. I still believe it is possible to change some things, even though it is not easy... And it's true being realistic is necessary if you really want to be able to make things evolve and change. It is just more difficult to live with because sometimes very depressing.

[Seppuku Savant]

I really like INFJs. They are my second favorite, right after INTP. However, they can be insecure and act wounded instead of taking responsibility for their actions. At least, the ones I've known.

[Eric86]

	Originally Posted by Seppuku Savant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	act wounded instead of taking responsibility for their actions.

What do you mean by that?