[Freak87]

for the guys, and girls, but mostly the guys for the question, what is feminine to you? what do you classify as unfeminine? what do you classify as tomboy.

the other day someone told me I am not feminine and I'm a tom-boy. they say my body language, the fact i hit people for jokings sake/playfully, the way i dress, no make up, hairs not straightened. he said- you dont seem to care a lot about your appearance but I wear girls clothes

my question is, what is feminine, what is un-feminine? are you attracted to feminine, unfeminine or both?

[PortInStorm]

Well, you know where he can stick that comment... Oops, guess that was unfeminine :-)

[Bandit]

This is absoulutely about beauty is in the eye of the beholder.. It also depends upon your previous life experiences, and what stage of life you are in..

For me at a young age I found girls that were Tom-Boys to be very attractive... most of my G/F's wore combat boots, and would walk in the woods with me... etc..

Then in my 20's I found a girl that was the picture of feminine, that I could dominate, control... excessively submissive and I thought that was what I wanted.. Perhaps based on the fact that I had no control as a child..

But here in my 30's the novelty has worn off, and I find myself excedingly attracted to the Tom-Boy image again.. girls that are sure of themselves, girls that have an opinion, that can banter and chat, stand there ground.. and really don't care to muc about what society thinks about them...


My 2 cents.

[md21017md]

To give you a more specific answer. Wearing girl clothes doesn't make one feminine - an image, mike tyson in a dress.

My intj g/f is a good example of this except I can't quite put it in words. She will wear girl clothes, but mostly black. To see her in color is shocking, forget any type of pattern or print. She will ocassionally wear makeup, but it is very basic. She has also been know more than not to leave the house with her hair wet, in a pony tail - despite the fact that she spends $200 every 6 weeks to get her hair done. Just strikes me as strange.

Her body manorisims are more like a guy. Look at how a guy walks or sits for an image compared to a woman.

[mkay]

I think I'd be seen as unfeminine in some ways -- not afraid to be aggressive or disliked, very independent, etc. I don't go with the flow unless it suits me, and feminine / unfeminine stereotypes don't. I remember hearing mixed messages as a girl and thinking them ignorant then. ... It's funny, because I have friends who are more stereotypically feminine who say they admire that I'm willing to say and do stuff they're not. For me, it's not a choice. This is how I am, what I'm comfortable with.

Lol. Once, an employer told me I negotiated money like a man. I told him if he meant that I expected to get paid what I was worth, he was right.

[Monte314]

For me, manifestations of femininity are mostly about mannerisms (standing, walking, use of hands, facial expressions, etc.) Dress doesn't have much to do with it, make-up doesn't have much to do with it.

[Homini Lupus]

I've no clear definition of what is feminine and what is not. Personally, I hate the "bitchy" behaviour, can relate well with tomboy girls (as long as feminism or other ideology don't get in the way) but feel more attracted towards something more balanced and leaning toward feminine behaviour. I also prefer feminine appearance/aesthetics/way of moving in girls.

Basically, my idea is that I'm already the man hence I need a woman, not another man, but I don't consider tomboy/assertive behaviour wrong. I also have no actual experience of partnership.

[KidC]

I'm attracted to girls who have a strong sense of self and say and do what they want to without being too conscious of society's view of it. I'm just much more drawn to a girl who can be direct and be herself.

Great example - way back freshman year of high school a girl I knew and liked a bit came up to me and said hey I was talking to my friends and I mentioned I liked you and they thought it was a good idea to ask you out on a date. So etc...

This sticks out in my memory as one of the coolest things a girl has ever done and its far from conventionality, yet wonderful and unique. Needless to say I said yes =).

[curiousjane]

I suppose that dress, mannerisms, and language/body language all contribute to the image of femininity or masculinity. I know that if I dress up, pay attention to the little details (nails, hair, makeup, etc.) I feel more feminine, and am sometimes treated differently.

But I think it boils down to ... are you comfortable with being a female? I am. With few exceptions (oh, about once a month, or whenever my sexist boss says another smooth "My dear, would you ___[enter inane secretarial type task here]____ for me?"), I like being a woman. I can be as pretty as I want to be. I can be silly. I can swirl my skirts, wear perfume and high heels, enjoy beauty without being thought of as weird, and enjoy the common courtesy of having random handsome men holding doors open for me. What's not to like!? I can also be solemn, sensible, down-to-earth, and business minded. I can wear slacks, as well as dresses. I can go without makeup. I can walk into any professional environment and hold my own, if I want to. Yes, being female is like the best of both worlds, especially with women's rights the way they are today.

A gay man might enjoy similar things ... but a straight man who likes beauty and art and good clothes and great food is immediately suspected of being "in the closet" or "metro." Whatever. I have some very, very straight guy friends who have more shoes than I do! (And I do love my shoes. I'm VERY girly in that way. I just can't afford to buy everything I like!)

Some ways in which I don't associate myself with being extremely feminine:

1) My manner of interacting with men. I don't flirt outrageously, and I am uncomfortable with the traditionally feminine role of fussing and touching flirtatiously and twisting men around my pinky finger to get them to do things for me that I am perfectly capable of doing myself.

2) My style. I often go without makeup, if my skin is clear. I hate the fuss of doing my hair (thank God mine is curly and just requires wash and go after a quick run-through with some gel). I don't wear tons of pink and purple and frills and lace and bling-bling. I prefer simplicity, elegant lines, tailoring, and comfy clothes. Give me a screenprinted indie t-shirt, flip flops, and a well-worn pair of jeans any day. Sure, I clean up good ... but my preference is comfort over fashion.

3) My goals. While my ultimate desire is to be a wife and mother, that is not my ONLY goal in life. I have met very few women (in real life, anyway) who are like me and want to run their own business. It has been my dream since I was about 5. It never, ever dawned on me that it was not a normal thing for a little girl to do to make crafts in her spare time and sell them to the neighborhood kids at a carefully calculated profit margin! (I was so successful, in fact, that I "hired" a couple kids to help me run my little stand and paid them wages for selling my homemade cookies and crafts).


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!

[Uytuun]

"*surprise* you think like a guy.", "*halfjoke* yeah, but you're not a real woman." and all that while I feel very, very feminine and elegant, like an empowered ballerina or a mysterious yet reserved (warrior) queen!
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Not girly, though, no, not so much. What limiting pre-conceived ideas we have to carry around as a society. I love being a female in an apparently unorthodox way, it's great fun and seems to be very enticing to some guys.

I do have days on which I feel like a neutral mind blob, but that's just a general disconnection with anything physical. During such times I will not care about what I look like and what I wear and the shock on people's faces when I get out of my zone and dress normally is funny to witness...sometimes they seem to be very uncomfortable about it as if they are suddenly reminded that I'm really a fully developed female. practically speaking, we're talking about exams and my parents and brother as the people in question.

[manger]

Femininity is all in how you present yourself to others. This includes manner of dress, speech, gait, and gesture. In most societies it is also about other behaviors - e.g. fixing things, hunting, etc. is not feminine.

Either extreme of the masc/fem spectrum is off-putting to me. In my experience hypermasculine men and extremely feminine women are not the best company. They tend to be too absorbed in the gender dichotomy to have depth in their personality.

A 'tomboy' is a girl who wears gender-ambiguous clothes, and exhibits as many or more masculine traits as she does feminine traits. This is also known as super-hot in some circles (read:my head).

Women in this society have it tough. To most people (particularly males), a woman cannot be seen as simultaneously feminine/compassionate and dominant/powerful. You can be either a cold bitch, or a helpless girl. This is why America can't elect a female president (yet).

[ElstonGunn]

I once told a friend of mine-- not literally, but not jokingly-- that I'd marry the idea of femininity if it were possible. So I would have to say that I like feminine women. I'm not entirely sure how I'd define the word, though.

I know of a few thing that I don't strongly associate with femininity or use as measurements of it. Clothing is one, although I do think that a good skirt is the most attractive thing a woman can wear, including fancy lingerie or even "nothing." I don't think assertiveness or submissiveness have anything to do with it, at least not in my conception of it.

Makeup and presentation don't have a whole lot to do with it in my mind, either. I can imagine a woman in dingy sweatpants with mussed up hair being very feminine. Maybe it's a general interest in things like that that I consider feminine, rather than the actual practice of them.

In any event, I don't see what justification that I have as a man to impose my definition of femininity onto anyone else, least of all women. That's not to say that I have no right to have my own definitions and preferences. I just can't make the assumption that what I happen to be fond of it automatically right or good for other people.

[mkay]

	Originally Posted by manger To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Femininity is all in how you present yourself to others. This includes manner of dress, speech, gait, and gesture.

This is the part I love. I'm petite and appear feminine. People make assumptions based on that, which I use to my advantage.





mkay added to this post, 11 minutes and 1 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by curiousjane To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It never, ever dawned on me that it was not a normal thing for a little girl to do to make crafts in her spare time and sell them to the neighborhood kids at a carefully calculated profit margin!

Lol, good for you, Jane! In grade school, I used to buy stickers by the sheet and resell them individually to classmates at a high markup. I used my profits to expand into candy later in my grade school "career." My only problem with that was eating the inventory.

[Chisos]

Difficult question, since it so depends on the person defining "feminine." And even then, it is still tough to answer.

Growing up, I had a cousin, one year older than me, who was considered a "tom boy," as she had 3 brothers who were all outdoorsmen--one of whom was almost my exact age.

The 3 of us would go out in the woods in our "pre-teen" years, and hunt, and fish, and climb, etc. She could "whup up" on my cousin and me if we didn't listen to her, and we respected her. I thought she was the epitome of what I wanted in a girl friend (since she was my cousin, it wasn't going to happen between us. She did, however, teach me to dance, and helped this "shy, skinny kid" get dates.)

As we grew into teens, she became very physically attractive in addition to have that great sense of humor, intelligence, had a "not scared of a thing" attitude, "cleans up real nice," smells good, gentle, confident, compassionate, soft skin, sparlking eyes, soft hair.

So, I kind of use her a bench mark.

I cannot imagine being attracted to a female who did not have at least some
"tom boy" attributes.

And if a chick did not have some predisposition to being a "tom boy," then I suspect they would be unable to tolerate me.

[Eric86]

	Originally Posted by Monte314 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	For me, manifestations of femininity are mostly about mannerisms (standing, walking, use of hands, facial expressions, etc.) Dress doesn't have much to do with it, make-up doesn't have much to do with it.

Taking all of that into consideration, along with voice inflections, being embarrassed really easily (even when people are just joking around), wanting to fulfill a more supportive and empathetic role in relationships, and the fact that I don't really like any stereotypically "guy" things, I think I probably come off to most people as very feminine (certainly not girly or flamboyant, of course, cause that's just annoying), but I don't have a problem with that because it's who I am. I have noticed, though, that I've gotten progressively more this way the more that I get into music (I listen to a ton of varied styles that are mostly rather obscure and very emotionally and intellectually engaging...not anything that one would use for mere background noise/casual entertainment/parties), anime and manga (which I find that I can really connect with), and making more of an effort to interact with others on a more intimate level [conversationally]; so basically, the more I come out of my shell (which I think was formed very early on in elementary school), the more feminine I get. Of course, I never really was all that masculine to begin with, though.

Another factor I should probably mention is that my dad has never been much of a part of my life (parents divorced when I was 5, and I've only seen him a few times since then), and there has never been any other "father figure" around for me, and although my mom was always there, she was never much of a part of my life either (she knows me far less than even my online friends do, and she quite often misunderstands my way of thinking), due to work and raising my brother and just generally being really busy with keeping up the home and making sure we don't end up on the street (which we very well could have back when I was around 8), so I was pretty much left to my own devices and grew up with very little influence from other people.


I think I also may have some sort of chemical/hormonal imbalance that might be playing into this. For instance, several of my online friends have said that my facial features are noticeably more feminine. I also sometimes have very strong PMS-like symptoms (minus the physical symptoms, of course) that have been occurring a bit more frequently over the past few years, and I get really really REALLY emotional and kinda moody and sometimes even snap on people in a defensive manner (which normally never happens) if they come across a certain way to me at the time.

Here's something I came across in the Wikipedia page on PMS that I think may be related to what's going on with me:

"Current thinking suspects that central-nervous-system neurotransmitter interactions with sex hormones are affected. It is thought to be linked to activity of serotonin (a neurotransmitter) in the brain. Preliminary studies suggest that up to 40% of women with symptoms of PMS, have a significant decline in their circulating serum levels of beta-endorphin. Beta endorphin is a naturally occurring opioid neurotransmitter which has an affinity for the same receptor that is accessed by heroin and other opiates. Some researchers have noted similarities in symptom presentation between PMS symptoms and opiate withdrawal symptoms."

which I think might also be linked with [possible] clinical depression (I have yet to get checked out for that, but I know for sure that none of the things that have happened to me make me that way because it just happens randomly and lasts for at least a whole day [I sometimes even wake up feeling like that], sometimes for several days in a row, and it takes a good while to get back to my normal self afterward).


If anyone else can think of what stuff like that might be for me, please let me know.

[Monte314]

Originally Posted by Eric86 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

which I think might also be linked with [possible] clinical depression (I have yet to get checked out for that, but I know for sure that none of the things that have happened to me make me that way because it just happens randomly and lasts for at least a whole day [I sometimes even wake up feeling like that], sometimes for several days in a row, and it takes a good while to get back to my normal self afterward). If anyone else can think of what stuff like that might be for me, please let me know.

Mood swings can be triggered by diet (e.g., hypoglycemia and sugar). Next time this hits you might want to quickly review what you've been eating.

[Eric86]

I have a pretty regular, healthy, balanced diet, though my appetite overall has decreased a lot over the past few years. I also know that when I don't eat, my blood glucose level is pretty much always at 80, and it doesn't drop below 75.

[mkay]

Eric, if it's hormonal or chemical, maybe a doctor can treat that? I feel for you and don't mean to sound like I'm making light: If doctors can give people sex changes, it seems like they should be able to help you.

[Eric86]

oh, btw, those 'episodes' or whatever you want to call them are sometimes accompanied by bad headaches.

A couple weeks ago (I don't know if this is related at all), I was in the bathroom at work, and I randomly almost passed out. It got to the point where my vision was limited to only a few feet in diameter. I was super light-headed and nauseous and numb and couldn't hardly stand up. This is only the second time this has happened, the first time being several years ago.

[curiousjane]

Hey, Eric, I don't know what to say about your PMS-like symptoms, but I can assure you that you are not alone as a male INFJ in some of your traits.

I have a very wonderful, very straight male friend who is INFJ and he is, as some of my friends put it, the gayest straight man you will ever meet. He can cook gourmet meals, sew his own pants, quilt, decorate his home, paint art, collect art prints, and even bedazzle! He is kind, empathetic, and quite funny. His hilarious, biting, sarcastic side comes out once in awhile when you least expect it from this mild-mannered guy.

Yet because of his interests, and his "softer" features, and snappy style of dress (yes, I just said "snappy", it seemed to fit) I am sure he is often considered effeminate, even though nothing could be further from the truth.

[mkay]

It's good to hear that men on this thread don't associate assertiveness with being unfeminine. I wonder whether it's because of NT-ness or age. ... The men I've gotten the uncomfortable vibe from have been older ones, though I don't know their types.

Funny, I was just remembering back to when I was a reporter, covering courts. There was an older male judge who made clear he didn't like women wearing pants in his courtroom. He couldn't make you not wear them, of course, but it paid not to annoy the judge if you wanted any kind of cooperation from him or his staff.

[Cality]

In short, most of you, guys, like tomboys inside but girls outside...

[AutisticCuckoo]

	Originally Posted by Monte314 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	For me, manifestations of femininity are mostly about mannerisms (standing, walking, use of hands, facial expressions, etc.) Dress doesn't have much to do with it, make-up doesn't have much to do with it.

I agree. I don't think I can even point out which gestures or facial expressions I consider feminine or masculine, but that's where it is.

Clothes or make-up don't matter much, although I guess the hairdo can make a bit of difference. In fact a really feminine woman can appear even more feminine with short hair, neutral or masculine clothes, little or no make-up, etc.

[phantasma]

Makes me wonder what I am, so far as personality goes. I look and dress like a girl, though I draw the line at pink and lace. However, being an INTP, I have a more masculine personality. I guess I'll find my niche eventually.

[zibber]

	Originally Posted by Freak87 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	no make up, hairs not straightened ... you dont seem to care a lot about your appearance

A lot of people fall prey to this pesky convention, the notion that women who wear no make-up and don't shave their legs, for instance, don't "take care" of themselves. (Especially the second one.) This is purely a cultural construction and doesn't actually say anything about how well you take care of yourself, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if I were you. I'd actually resent someone actively pointing it out, as it is that kind of critical verbal utterance that only reinforces the beauty myth.