[Andre20]

I was reading some articles today about the uses of ethanol in the US. Right now about 60% of the gasoline in the US has about 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline in it. There was some debate on whether ethanol was causing worse emission than before. I know that with the use of excessive fertilizer, and the process it takes to make ethanol, it isn't all that great. I'm not that educated on the matter, and the articles that I've found aren't helping.

So what do you guys think? Does the pros of using ethanol out weigh the cons?

[RBM]

Originally Posted by Andre20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I was reading some articles today about the uses of ethanol in the US. Right now about 60% of the gasoline in the US has about 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline in it. There was some debate on whether ethanol was causing worse emission than before. I know that with the use of excessive fertilizer, and the process it takes to make ethanol, it isn't all that great. I'm not that educated on the matter, and the articles that I've found aren't helping. So what do you guys think? Does the pros of using ethanol out weigh the cons?

Are you technically literate ?

Can you be more specific about 'pros and cons' ? Are you taking about BTU's, US ag policy, pure economics, EROEI/EROI ( Energy Return On Energy Invested), LCA (Land Cycle Assesment) per your fertilizer scenario, or what ?

[Andre20]

	Originally Posted by Andre20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm not that educated on the matter, and the articles that I've found aren't helpful.

	Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Are you technically literate ?

Notice how I said I'm not that educated on the subject I'm trying to find information about. That's the reason why there is a thread here...for open discussion.
And I did not specify on the pros and cons, because I believed that the people who may comment already had enough information. So I wouldn't have to repeat redundant facts to them.

[RBM]

	Originally Posted by Andre20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Notice how I said I'm not that educated on the subject I'm trying to find information about. That's the reason why there is a thread here...for open discussion. And I did not specify on the pros and cons, because I believed that the people who may comment already had enough information. So I wouldn't have to repeat redundant facts to them.

Let me rephrase: What is your knowledge level, in general, as a participant in the 21st century ?

All I know at this point, reasonably, is you can operate a PC.

[ZerroDefex]

Adding more Ethanol is a big problem for vehicles not designed to handle it (which is a large percentage of them) as it causes engine parts to degrade faster due to water being miscible in ethanol. Water is not miscible in pure gasoline, but as you add ethanol into the mix to increase the amount of water than can mix in and it's very difficult to keep ethanol water free even in lab conditions. While yes there is water in the exhaust as a combustion byproduct, having more of it in the entire system from start to finish means requiring more of the engine to be built from stainless steel, which raises costs substantially.

Also ethanol has a lot less energy density, so you have to burn more of it to get the same amount of power as gasoline.

[RBM]

Originally Posted by ZerroDefex To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Adding more Ethanol is a big problem for vehicles not designed to handle it (which is a large percentage of them) as it causes engine parts to degrade faster due to water being miscible in ethanol. Water is not miscible in pure gasoline, but as you add ethanol into the mix to increase the amount of water than can mix in and it's very difficult to keep ethanol water free even in lab conditions. While yes there is water in the exhaust as a combustion byproduct, having more of it in the entire system from start to finish means requiring more of the engine to be built from stainless steel, which raises costs substantially. Also ethanol has a lot less energy density, so you have to burn more of it to get the same amount of power as gasoline.

Both points are a basic limitations to ethanol as a transportation solution in the US, at least. Politics is what put ethanol into the US market, not the utility of the fuel itself.

[Vagrant]

Ethanol does not "burn" as cleanly as gasoline. So it's less environmentally friendly, but it's renewable!

[RBM]

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ethanol does not "burn" as cleanly as gasoline. So it's less environmentally friendly, but it's renewable!

Sort of. anyway. Not in the same way as a wind turbine or solar panel, but in the way any plant is renewable. In the general case of ethanol an issue that pops up is, if it's food or not. In the case of corn ethanol; iti is is a
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The recycling of
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is one way to avoid the food/fuel issue but it has problems also.

Neither of the above articles I've quoted are deep. They just make an out line of the intricacies. The intricacies stand out in high relief when you start crunching the numbers - capital expenses, operating expenses, supply and consumption values. These all have tight interrelationships to whether there is a product actually delivered to market or not.

[Kozality]

I don't see any need to lambast OP. He's looking for info.

I'm not terribly educated on the matter either, but I've read the odd article or two on the matter. Most of the debate I've heard revolves around it's impact on food prices is demand for corn now comes from two places, the food and energy markets.

While the use of ethanol does reduce (by a bit) the amount of oil that needs to be imported, it doesn't affect gas consumption.

There's the also the issue of farm subsidies and tax breaks and benefits given to ethanol producers. The alleged kickbacks to corn growers and ethanol producers is something that needs to be examined more.

As with a lot of energy issues, I think the circumstances surrounding their use are governed much more by economic issues than environmental ones.

[RBM]

	Originally Posted by Koza;otu
	As with a lot of energy issues, I think the circumstances surrounding their use are governed much more by economic issues than environmental ones

The circumstances of their production (not use) is governed more by economics than in the past. This is a trend that is inexorable, given population increase. This will continue until it stops.

It will stop due to geologic realities. This is a finite planet with finite physical fossil fuel resources. The resource 'pie' is fixed size and that size is not definitively known. It is, however, guessed at. mightily.

Meanwhile politics is played.