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ISFJ-INTJ relationship dynamic None
Old 07-02-2011, 10:56 PM   #1
peeptoeontheped
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i was thinking about posting tips on how to have a relationship like this or offering to help people understand each other if they are in a relationship like this but then i decided DON'T DO IT! IT REALLY IS AN ENIGMA!! if you're in this relationship and everything is perfect right now, leave it as is, tell them you just want to be friends. if you sever it before a fall out begins, i believe the friendship can continue. if you are romantic with them, stay romantic with them but the umbrella of the relationship needs to be destroyed. if you are romantic with them expecting them to find a lover somewhere down the line, you will not be as sad as if you're a lover and down the line they no longer love you. it's like leasing a car, if you know that at the end the dealership is going to take it back, you'll be sad but not that sad. if you own a car and suddenly it's repossessed, it sucks more because you thought it was yours.

the ISFJ thinks in targets. it identifies that it wants something, it will stop at nothing to get it and anything that gets in the way is overlooked or destroyed. when you take the target away, it doesn't know where to aim, what to do, it will have a meltdown.

my target was an INTJ and then it left so i was a mess for months.

the INTJ thinks in searching. it doesn't know what it's looking for so it scans, it tries various things, and if there's a match, it keeps it because it's good. most of the things that the INTJ scans is not what it wants or needs and even if it gets what it needs, the needs change and when they do, it will drop that thing to pick up something else because though the thing once served a purpose, it serves one no longer.

the INTJ came about me while it was searching but i am not what it needs. it has let me go.

this dynamic may work for some time with the ISFJ fooling itself thinking that all of it's emotional requirements do not need to be fulfilled and with the INTJ fooling itself thinking that it's ok to keep something around that it doesn't really need anymore but these personalities in a loving relationship is a recipe for disaster. far too much compromising. it's no ones fault that it doesn't work. both types deserve to be loved for what they are.

---------- Post added 07-02-2011 at 08:09 PM ----------

i forgot to add this because after you read the INTJ part, you may think, "why doesn't the same go for the ISFJ?" in regards to keep something useless. the difference is that the ISFJ doesn't see anything as useless, all that it encounters, it sees as important and as steps to further things. one target leads to another. it wants everything to count. it keeps everything. if the target of the relationship has been reached, it wants to take that target to the target of marriage, or other things. the ISFJ hates to start over and it hate loss and waste for better or worse.

---------- Post added 07-02-2011 at 08:11 PM ----------

the INTJ only holds what it needs at any given time. it does not want to hold extra things. it's OK with dropping things because it simply is unneccessary. it may pick it up again when it wants. this is why starting over is not hard for an INTJ, it doesn't want and doesn't need everything and it has started over so many times in it's life in so many respects and it's nothing new and probably a skill.

---------- Post added 07-02-2011 at 08:37 PM ----------

also, ISFJs see perfect as a thing to shoot for and it's cumulative. i think INTJs may see things as perfect more concretely and as a given. my INTJ always thought that i saw him as not good enough because he should have been perfect as is. "simply being me isn't good enough for you" he said. that was highly offensive to him. on the contrary, ISFJs have grand plans and when they identify anything as being conducive to their grand plan, seeing that potential is the higher form of compliment. yes, unfortunately i didn't think the INTJ was perfect but out of everyone at the given moment, i thought he was most worthy to become perfect, he would've had to put the least effort into getting there out of everyone else.
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Old 07-03-2011, 11:21 AM   #2
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things fell apart between you and your INTJ , but that does not preclude the possibilities of other such couples making it. Different types may work if the differences are understood and more importantly, appreciated. Perhaps there is a considerable weight to types (but to INTJs, from what I gather, the SJ is not a list-topper), but when you pigeonhole people like that you will inevitably discount individual variation, which accounts for a great deal of personality.

However, I do understand that you're upset about your ex and have resorted to venting. Which is fine. Breaking up sucks, and the only way out is to realize you're in control of your own happiness, and when that happens, you'll be able to walk yourself out of that dark place. Salvaging a friendship is a difficult process, but not impossible, but with an INTJ, you have to be especially careful to be consistent with your words. No one likes to have a painful past thrown back in their faces only to remind them of what they can no longer have. INTJs don't see things as concrete perfection; everything can be improved and made better. We just have to be careful about which projects to embark on, and which to accept and leave as is, if you know what I mean. I expect room for growth, but I do not expect a culmination into perfection. Besides, I find that perfection is sometimes subjective. Where many others may see flaws, I might see unique traits. Good luck to you.
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Old 07-03-2011, 03:33 PM   #3
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I'm not venting out of anger or frustration but time and time again on this forum, I've seen ISFJ-INTJ relationship failure threads and within them, my ex's words are echeoed. "you've become impossible to communicate with", "with you it's impossible", "you didn't love me for me," "we can't appreciate how we love each other." the first few quoted are frustrating but the latter quotes are heartbreaking. There's just a feeling of two against the world when and ISFJ steps into a relationship but to the INTJ it was always two separate people interacting. In time when these understandings come to a head, communication comes to a stand still and frustrates both people. But you're right, some people defy all odds and when they do, it's absolutely beautiful. Just a word to the wise. Thank you for your good wish.
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Old 07-03-2011, 09:32 PM   #4
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Breathe. Seriously. Lower the intensity, A LOT. No emotional uprisings, no 14 page emails, no all-in attestations of the heart and what is or isn't right about him(it). Take 24 sentences and let them age gracefully and write just one that captures it.
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Old 07-04-2011, 02:36 AM   #5
peeptoeontheped
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  Originally Posted by larrysb
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Breathe. Seriously. Lower the intensity, A LOT. No emotional uprisings, no 14 page emails, no all-in attestations of the heart and what is or isn't right about him(it). Take 24 sentences and let them age gracefully and write just one that captures it.

This is good advice. It's just so difficult right now. I've tried every means of coping and figuring things out. I never wanted him out of my life but what pushed him away was me trying to hold on. It's like everything I did was wrong. I could never plan anything with him. When I stopped by unannounced to surprise him, he didn't like it. (I'm talking about prior to the breakup). I understand that INTJs do not like surprises but his friends had free reign of his house and would just open the door with no warning to hang out with him. I don't understand why he hated his girlfriend surprising him. Every time he surprised me with a visit, I was so excited that the man I loved was in my presence. After I figured out that he doesn't like surprises, I tried to plan a visit 3 weeks in advance. He said that he couldn't guarantee it because what if something happened like a family member was in the hospital. I was baffled, I felt like he could have "reserved" the date and if something serious like that came up, of course I wouldn't hold him to his words. It wasn't an absolute, I was just trying to spend time with somebody I loved. I wish he saw that. I wish he appreciated that. I hope he doesn't hate me and forgets what he loved me for. I have no idea where he lives now. When he cut off communication with me, he was moving. I'm sure he blocked my emails, texts, calls, every avenue of communication. There will never be a way for me to deliver a succinct letter to him for the rest of my life. He was my first love and I was his longest relationship. It's just painful that things turned out this way. Every day I would see something that reminded me of him and it's going to take a while to shake that. I loved him with every ounce of me. I thought we'd have a great future together.

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Old 07-04-2011, 03:53 AM   #6
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People who share MBTI types may have certain personality traits in common, and knowing about MBTI can sometimes make it easier to put people's individual quirks in some context, and relate to them better - but beyond all that, individual preference counts for a lot. Your INTJ may not have been willing or inclined (at least at this stage in his life) to fully appreciate everything that an ISFJ has to offer, but this doesn't necessarily go for everybody. As for all the disheartening threads - well - people don't often come to internet forums to start threads about how perfect their relationships are
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- so there's likely to be a skewed sample of stories here. I totally feel where you're coming from, but I don't agree that any person in a relationship where everything is perfect should walk away on the expectation that it will somehow inevitably fail.

  Originally Posted by peeptoeontheped
There will never be a way for me to deliver a succinct letter to him for the rest of my life. He was my first love and I was his longest relationship. It's just painful that things turned out this way. Every day I would see something that reminded me of him and it's going to take a while to shake that. I loved him with every ounce of me. I thought we'd have a great future together.

I think there will, when you've truly healed. I say this as the writer of a couple more 14 page emails than I'd like to admit
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Old 07-04-2011, 04:02 AM   #7
peeptoeontheped
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  Originally Posted by esperanza
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People who share MBTI types may have certain personality traits in common, and knowing about MBTI can sometimes make it easier to put people's individual quirks in some context, and relate to them better - but beyond all that, individual preference counts for a lot. Your INTJ may not have been willing or inclined (at least at this stage in his life) to fully appreciate everything that an ISFJ has to offer, but this doesn't necessarily go for everybody. As for all the disheartening threads - well - people don't often come to internet forums to start threads about how perfect their relationships are
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- so there's likely to be a skewed sample of stories here. I totally feel where you're coming from, but I don't agree that any person in a relationship where everything is perfect should walk away on the expectation that it will somehow inevitably fail.


I think there will, when you've truly healed. I say this as the writer of a couple more 14 page emails than I'd like to admit
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Esperanza, whoever you are, you've been giving me great, logical advice all weekend. It is really helping me through this difficult time. Thanks for your time and effort. Do you think now that he and I have a clean break, he will reflect, even in passing, the complexities of our relationship and my personality the way that I have been doing about his? That maybe the both of us were not developed enough to understand and appreciate each other fully? Maybe a few years from now he may realize that I meant no harm and see the good in my good faith actions that he misinterpreted and vice versa?

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Old 07-04-2011, 04:24 AM   #8
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  Originally Posted by peeptoeontheped
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Esperanza, whoever you are, you've been giving me great, logical advice all weekend. It is really helping me through this difficult time. Thanks for your time and effort. Do you think now that he and I have a clean break, he will reflect, even in passing, the complexities of our relationship and my personality the way that I have been doing about his? That maybe the both of us were not developed enough to understand and appreciate each other fully? Maybe a few years from now he may realize that I meant no harm and see the good in my good faith actions that he misinterpreted and vice versa?

Aww *e-hugs*
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Um, funnily enough I just kinda blathered on about this in one of your other threads (not stalking your posts I promise!
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haha)

I think all of this is entirely likely, based on what you've posted. I don't get the feeling that he thinks badly of you, but that the relationship has just got too angsty and complicated to have much scope for positive growth at this point in time. In circumstances like that, a clean break (or a relatively clean break) is usually best (in my experience anyway - and I have stayed friends with every one of my exes except one who I suspect of being a sociopath). He probably finds this easier than you because of his personality type, but I don't think this means it's because he thinks badly of you.

I think, when you've properly moved on, given a good chunk of time, if it's still playing on your mind, totally get back in touch with him and see if he's open to your friendship. There's at least a good chance he'll be receptive at that point - and if he isn't, at least you've tried and there's your answer. There's work involved in every relationship, and it's great to try and work out where other people are coming from and accommodate their personalities, but ultimately if a person isn't able to appreciate you for the person you are, warts and all, you're better off leaving them be and spending your time with other people
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Old 07-04-2011, 11:30 AM   #9
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The best relationship I had was with an ISFP, but that P being a P not a J eventually cost us the friendship.
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Old 07-04-2011, 12:53 PM   #10
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  Originally Posted by peeptoeontheped
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i was thinking about posting tips on how to have a relationship like this or offering to help people understand each other if they are in a relationship like this but then i decided DON'T DO IT! IT REALLY IS AN ENIGMA!!

Thank you for posting this!
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if you're in this relationship and everything is perfect right now, leave it as is,

But this is a recipe for stagnation. In a relationship like this nothing is learned. Without adversity no one, neither you nor your partner can grow as a person which to me is quite boring.

 
tell them you just want to be friends. if you sever it before a fall out begins, i believe the friendship can continue.

I concur!

 
if you are romantic with them, stay romantic with them but the umbrella of the relationship needs to be destroyed.

Are you describing the transition from a love relationship to friendship here?

 
if you are romantic with them expecting them to find a lover somewhere down the line, you will not be as sad as if you're a lover and down the line they no longer love you.

It is alright to be sad either way. This is how you feel, but don't put limits on yourself. I used to think like this too until I realized that unrequited love or leaving a lover is not a big deal. With high enough self esteem and confidence you will realize that you do NOT need anyone. If your partner wants to leave then ok... There are always more fish in the sea.

 
it's like leasing a car, if you know that at the end the dealership is going to take it back, you'll be sad but not that sad. if you own a car and suddenly it's repossessed, it sucks more because you thought it was yours.

This analogy is somewhat unnerving. If your lover leaves then it is okay to feel sad, but it is only your fault if you wallow in sadness and self pity.

 
the ISFJ thinks in targets. it identifies that it wants something, it will stop at nothing to get it and anything that gets in the way is overlooked or destroyed. when you take the target away, it doesn't know where to aim, what to do, it will have a meltdown.

This is Si and Fe running away with itself with some Ti mixed in. You need to learn how to cut your losses and move on. Take this advice from an ISFJ who had to learn the same thing. When I realized (and this was not easy) how to lose everything and start from scratch, I gained one of the most important skills in my box of tools.

Find a new target and put all that Fe to use. Let go of the past. You should take charge of Si, not the other way around.

 
my target was an INTJ and then it left so i was a mess for months.

I too love INTJ men (not all of course
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). However, Si-Fe likes to hang on to things. This does not auger well for you when something goes wrong. Add Ti to that (your third function) and you will be imagining all sorts of terrible scenarios. Once you learn to properly beat Ti into a bloody pulp you will be well on your way to moving on.

 
the INTJ thinks in searching. it doesn't know what it's looking for so it scans, it tries various things, and if there's a match, it keeps it because it's good. most of the things that the INTJ scans is not what it wants or needs and even if it gets what it needs, the needs change and when they do, it will drop that thing to pick up something else because though the thing once served a purpose, it serves one no longer.

The INTJ observes and most people don't know what they are looking for, but of all 16 personality types the INTJs has the least problem with this. They usually KNOW what they want and most times HOW to get it. Nevertheless, romantic relationships are an Achilles's heel for them.

Keeping a good match? The INTJ holds on until he/she sees that there is no more that can be done to improve the relationship. If the relationship is going under and there is no way to fix it, then the INTJ moves on. If the INTJ sees someone who he/she fits better with then he/she will move on with this new target. And why not? People should put themselves first when trying to be happy. This is something alien to the ISFJ who loves engaging in self sacrifice. It is not as fulfilling as it seems. I don't know your age, but you sound younger than me.

 
the INTJ came about me while it was searching but i am not what it needs. it has let me go.

This need you speak of is an ISFJ sentiment. INTJs don't usually need people. INTJs enjoy harmonious relationships with others and they also love working on relationships which he/she wishes to keep. I don't think you realize that you are looking at life through your lens and not seeing what is on the other side. INTJs are VERY different from ISFJs. They are our antitheses. You have to try and see things the way they see it. For most SJs that is scary, but it was not for me.

 
this dynamic may work for some time with the ISFJ fooling itself thinking that all of it's emotional requirements do not need to be fulfilled and with the INTJ fooling itself thinking that it's ok to keep something around that it doesn't really need anymore but these personalities in a loving relationship is a recipe for disaster. far too much compromising. it's no ones fault that it doesn't work. both types deserve to be loved for what they are.

Don't fool yourself. If there is something you need then go get it and don't compromise on that. Find out what you want first and then you will be in a position to have a great relationship with someone else. This is true for anyone.

 
i forgot to add this because after you read the INTJ part, you may think, "why doesn't the same go for the ISFJ?" in regards to keep something useless. the difference is that the ISFJ doesn't see anything as useless, all that it encounters, it sees as important and as steps to further things. one target leads to another. it wants everything to count. it keeps everything. if the target of the relationship has been reached, it wants to take that target to the target of marriage, or other things. the ISFJ hates to start over and it hate loss and waste for better or worse.

This is Si-Ti running out of control. This is something which plagues all ISFJs until they learn better. Whenever you keep things in your possession that you don't use then you become possessed by those items. INTJs don't keep things around which have outlived their usefulness.

 
the INTJ only holds what it needs at any given time. it does not want to hold extra things. it's OK with dropping things because it simply is unneccessary. it may pick it up again when it wants. this is why starting over is not hard for an INTJ, it doesn't want and doesn't need everything and it has started over so many times in it's life in so many respects and it's nothing new and probably a skill.

No. Moving on is easy for the INTJ because they use Ni which is focused on the future on the macroscale. ISFJs use Si which roams the past on a microscale. INTJs are also not afraid to lose everything and start over since they don't mind taking responsibility for the repercussions of their actions.

 
also, ISFJs see perfect as a thing to shoot for and it's cumulative. i think INTJs may see things as perfect more concretely and as a given. my INTJ always thought that i saw him as not good enough because he should have been perfect as is. "simply being me isn't good enough for you" he said. that was highly offensive to him. on the contrary, ISFJs have grand plans and when they identify anything as being conducive to their grand plan, seeing that potential is the higher form of compliment. yes, unfortunately i didn't think the INTJ was perfect but out of everyone at the given moment, i thought he was most worthy to become perfect, he would've had to put the least effort into getting there out of everyone else.

SJs see things in steps. We see A-B-C-D while the INTJ sees A-D instantly. SJs see the trees while the NTs see the forest. While you take steps, the INTJ sees the destination without even seeing the steps.

Why did he think this? Why indeed was he offended? I will venture this: Many SJs criticize NTs heavily and you will see here on this forum that some of the NTs here are not shy about saying what they hate about SJs. People should realize that the SJ and NT worlds are quite different. Without that comprehension and the desire to really understand that which is different then communication is impossible. The ISFJ may be convinced that he/she knows what is best for everyone involved and the INTJ will want some understanding because he/she is different from what is so well expressed today by people.

Maybe your idea of perfect did not sit well with the INTJ.

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Old 07-04-2011, 01:29 PM   #11
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^^ Are you saying INTJss aren't to be counted on for a long term relationship or commitment? They stay as long as it's easy and good for them, and leave when it gets hard?
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Old 07-04-2011, 01:42 PM   #12
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Reread my post because you glossed over a lot of details. Pay close attention especially where I stated quite clearly that INTJs love working on relationships.
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Old 07-04-2011, 03:01 PM   #13
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  Originally Posted by peeptoeontheped
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my INTJ always thought that i saw him as not good enough because he should have been perfect as is. "simply being me isn't good enough for you" he said.

I'm going to call bullshit on this. Whenever a guy says things like this, he's trying to paint you as a villian, so that he doesn't look like a jerk when breaks up with you. This isn't an INTJ thing, it's an immaturity thing. Also, didn't you say that he wanted you to help him improve? Why would he contradict himself like that?

  Originally Posted by peeptoeontheped
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When I stopped by unannounced to surprise him, he didn't like it. (I'm talking about prior to the breakup). I understand that INTJs do not like surprises but his friends had free reign of his house and would just open the door with no warning to hang out with him. I don't understand why he hated his girlfriend surprising him.
[...]After I figured out that he doesn't like surprises, I tried to plan a visit 3 weeks in advance. He said that he couldn't guarantee it because what if something happened like a family member was in the hospital.

I've experienced this. It means they're already thinking about ending the relationship. Surprising him could've upset him for various reason...he wanted space from you, maybe his place is a bachelor's pad and your presence makes it awkward for the guys or makes him look whipped in front of them or he was up to no good. My guess is he just wanted space from you, because he wouldn't commit to meeting 3 weeks in advance. (Though...why 3 weeks in advance? You've been dating for a year, don't you see each other weekly?)

What were you like in the relationship? Were you clingy? Did you give him space? INTJs need a lot of that. Did you shower him with a lot of gifts and love even though he did nothing to deserve it? Sometimes people interpret that as emotional blackmail. I mean, it's nice to do random sweet things for someone you love, but if it becomes an everyday thing, it can be taken the wrong way.

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Old 07-04-2011, 04:03 PM   #14
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It was a Long distance relationship. I saw him once a month or once every two months.
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Old 07-04-2011, 04:18 PM   #15
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So he should've been fine with a 3 week notice. He was still making excuses to not be close. I mean, unless he's got a very sick relative, I'm not sure why he'd be concerned about a family member being hospitalized.
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Old 07-05-2011, 09:10 PM   #16
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  Originally Posted by peeptoeontheped
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This is good advice. It's just so difficult right now. I loved him with every ounce of me. I thought we'd have a great future together.

I just fixed it (INTJ'd it) for you.

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