[memory]

I seem to be encountering a decent amount of conflicting opinions about feminine women and feminists. From my experiences and personal preferences, I think it is possible for a feminist to be feminine. However, I may just be biased towards myself (funny how that works...
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)

While your posting your opinions, I would appreciate it if you would give your own definition of what it means to be feminine versus feminist. Sometimes I find myself debating with someone, only to find out the argument was about the vocabulary being used and not the ideas. It's not my intention to get into one of those discussions...

Please share your thoughts! I would like to expand my mind and understand other views on the subject.

[creativestrike]

Hmm. I know the opposite can be true :P I'm not a feminist and also not feminine. So I think a feminist could definitely be feminine. She has the right to choose to be feminine :P

[AnaK]

Feminine is hard to define. Is it showing cleavage or being modest? Is it playing stupid? Is it being a strong supportive friend in a time of crisis? Is it enjoying cooking and cleaning?

And feminist is hard to define. Is it anyone who wants the same career and educational opportunities as a man? Or is it someone on a soapbox looking for an argument?

[memory]

	Originally Posted by AnaK To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Feminine is hard to define. Is it showing cleavage or being modest? Is it playing stupid? Is it being a strong supportive friend in a time of crisis? Is it enjoying cooking and cleaning? And feminist is hard to define. Is it anyone who wants the same career and educational opportunities as a man? Or is it someone on a soapbox looking for an argument?

Hm... Usually I think of "feminine" a synonym for classy behavior and appearance. Not all feminine women are a Merriam-Webster definition of "classy," but I generally don't think lots of cleavage. (Sometimes I know it is hard to find clothing that covers it all, but there is a difference between "I'm wearing this top to show what I have" and "I'm stuck with some cleavage because clothing designers have not awoken to the fact that some women have figures...")

I have a hard time defining "feminist" as well. I see myself as a feminist because of my education/work goals. I also never appreciate it when someone writes me off just because of my sex - and I'm not afraid to stand up for myself when that happens. But I'm not a crazy man-hater, etc. (And, strangely enough, if I ever have children I want to stay home and raise them myself... If I have a job, only work when they're in school. But then, that might just be the part-time nanny in me speaking.)

...I think I blur the lines feminine and feminist a little.

[Shadizar]

I've started a similar argument; the response I got back - which they didn't budge on - was "I am feminine by proxy of being woman", which of course didn't impress me.

[plotthickens]

Hard to get into "are these two things the same" without defining apples, oranges, pears, kumquats, or jujubees.

Me? Apricots. Stonefruit all the way.

[Fox]

I don't see a reason why they can't be. Only problem I see is that they may get some flak about it from others.

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by Fox To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't see a reason why they can't be. Only problem I see is that they may get some flak about it from others.

This made me think of [HIDE="lipstick lesbians"]


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[/HIDE]

[CyanideSoda]

For me it has always been like this:
Feminist: someone who believes in the equal rights between men and women.
Feminine: A style of dressing and appearance that is doll-like, delicate.

I'm definitely a feminist and I am often called feminine. I have doll-like features and like dresses and flowery clothes so it would be difficult for somebody to call me butch on appearances only. In fact nobody ever has, come to think of it.

[JulietCapulet]

Of course. Unless you think being feminine equates thinking women are inferior to men.

[creativestrike]

I think I only know one true self-proclaimed feminist out of all of my female friends and she is the most annoying person I have ever met. She is very defensive towards men, very argumentative, always believes she's right, and claims she can kick any guys ass. She has a very dominant personality, though it really seems like a front. I don't know any guy that's every been attracted to her haha.

I can't be sure whether she is feminine. I, too, have a hard time determining the correct usage of feminist and feminine. I'd say her strong religious beliefs and her wanting to wait until marriage for sex make her somewhat feminine, though I could definitely be wrong about that. She doesn't dress in a particular way that strikes me as feminine or non-feminine. She does dress up, wear make-up, jewelry and tries to look nice when she wants to impress a guy that she likes, but other days she dresses pretty average (jeans, shirt).

By the way: I hope I didn't offend any feminists out there that are not this way. This is simply the only experience I've had with someone who has proclaimed herself as a feminist. I know that no one is the same.

By the definition above, I guess I could say I'm actually a feminist. I definitely believe in equal rights between men and women, but it isn't something I often think about. I feel like I'm treated equally and never have to defend my or other women's rights IRL. If I grew up in a different time, maybe, but this day and age, and where I live, it seems that women and men are pretty close to being treated equally. Of course, it isn't perfect yet. There's definitely room to improve.

I guess most of what I'm saying fits more in the "Gender Roles" thread, so sorry for slightly going off topic. So, back to the main question, which I've already answered: yes, I believe someone can absolutely be a feminist and feminine. I don't really see why it shouldn't work.

[Seablue]

Simple answer : yes. But of course, there are all kinds of feminists. And "feminine" can refer to appearance (skirts, make up...) or to the behavior (being gentle, sweet, smiling, and uh, I'm not sure exactly
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).

I consider myself a feminist, but I'm not sure how feminine I am. But my best friend is also a feminist and I don't think anyone ever questioned her femininity (since puberty at least). Though she does have a geek/gamer side, but men who share the same interests seem to like that.

[memory]

	Originally Posted by creativestrike To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think I only know one true self-proclaimed feminist out of all of my female friends and she is the most annoying person I have ever met. She is very defensive towards men, very argumentative, always believes she's right, and claims she can kick any guys ass. She has a very dominant personality, though it really seems like a front. I don't know any guy that's every been attracted to her haha.

Yeah, I've known feminists like that. I've always assumed that women who are like that have been let down by men in some horrible way - an abusive father, for example. Women like that are actually a mystery to me.

Originally Posted by creativestrike To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I can't be sure whether she is feminine. I, too, have a hard time determining the correct usage of feminist and feminine. I'd say her strong religious beliefs and her wanting to wait until marriage for sex make her somewhat feminine, though I could definitely be wrong about that. She doesn't dress in a particular way that strikes me as feminine or non-feminine. She does dress up, wear make-up, jewelry and tries to look nice when she wants to impress a guy that she likes, but other days she dresses pretty average (jeans, shirt).

I would think this does sound a little feminine, except for your first description of her attitude towards men.

	Originally Posted by creativestrike To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	By the way: I hope I didn't offend any feminists out there that are not this way. This is simply the only experience I've had with someone who has proclaimed herself as a feminist. I know that no one is the same.

No offense! I know there are feminists out there who are like that. Feminism is sort of an umbrella term with so many different people under it... which is part of why it is so hard to define it accurately.

[Persona]

Feminism is ultimately about letting individuals choose what it means to them to be 'feminine' or 'masculine'.

Personally, I think I'm pretty feminine in some ways, and unless you have some weird definition of 'feminist', I'm that too.

I'm not a princess who wears a ton of makeup and dresses provocatively. But I am gentle, and nurturing. So in that sense, I am.

And I don't crusade against men's rights or whatever (except the ones they have over women) but I do support equality where applicable and, perhaps more radically, abolishment of psychological gender segregation.

Maybe there's an unwritten rule that the more radically feminist you are, the less feminine, I don't know. I certainly have a few un-feminine features as well. But I don't think that's necessarily so. I think there might be a correlation for other reasons.

[VENUS 2020]

Can feminist be feminine?
The two terms almost stand opposite each other. The reason being that most feminist in order to put across their point of being equal will adopt masculine stance, assume masculine duties and reject traditional feminine roles and attire. So basically you have a woman who behaves like a man.

I believe that a feminist can be feminine. She can assert her rights for equality, while providing a soft and welcoming retreat for the man in her life. She can be a leader in the workplace and in the outside world, but also be sensually appealing in her attire and the way she presents herself. I am not talking slutty or prim here, just a balance of confidence and female sensuality.

Feminists tend to take the equality theme to the extreme. The truth is in a relationship one of the parties has to be willing to be led. I am not suggesting subservience or submission here, only compromise. Small issues are not worth the conflict (take out or homemade) and larger ones should be settled in a matter satisfactory to both parties (house or condo). But it does no good to be constantly weighing or frustrating decisions for the sole purpose of asserting your equal standing.

[firebee]

	Originally Posted by memory To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Hm... Usually I think of "feminine" a synonym for classy behavior and appearance.

If I were to show up to a wedding in an impeccable business suit and tie and execute the social protocol for "gentleman attending a wedding" with considerable grace, would this constitute "feminine" behavior on my part?

[zibber]

Feminism is merely the possession of a critical consciousness regarding gender issues.

Just be yourself. That's the point.

Originally Posted by VENUS 2020 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Can feminist be feminine? I believe that a feminist can be feminine. She can assert her rights for equality, while providing a soft and welcoming retreat for the man in her life. She can be a leader in the workplace and in the outside world, but also be sensually appealing in her attire and the way she presents herself. I am not talking slutty or prim here, just a balance of confidence and female sensuality.

Watch out, now
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[firebee]

	Originally Posted by VENUS 2020 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The truth is in a relationship one of the parties has to be willing to be led. I am not suggesting subservience or submission here, only compromise.

This sort of statement saddens me whenever I see it, and sadly I see it fairly often. Most of my relationships -- and all of my close personal relationships, including the ones which have included elements of D/s -- have basically been defined as people cooperating out of consideration for the interest of the other person that they care about, with no one individual designated as the global head of the relationship. My parents' marriage is like this. For that matter, most of the time at work the focus of decision-making is "what is best to do" rather than "who is in charge".

What makes this situation avoid deadlock is the common interest of the parties -- that my friends ultimately want to spend time together rather than have an acrimonious debate about where to go for lunch, or that my parents ultimately want to love and care for one another rather than have absolute dominion over the use of the TV.

When folks speak as if this thing, which to me is perfectly ordinary, is obviously infeasible, it implies to me that they have never experienced relationships where people actually make mutual compromises, and where the only way to forestall an infinite power struggle is to arbitrarily vest power in one party that the other party might perpetually be told what to do. And what this implies for the state of their intimate relationships, and for those that they have experienced indirectly... well, again, it makes me rather sad.

[stasis]

	Originally Posted by VENUS 2020 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The two terms almost stand opposite each other.

The implications are probably somewhat opposed. What is feminine and what is masculine is culturally normative. If feminism is rejective of externalities with regard to masculine and feminine roles then as a movement it can be anti-normative. The cultural result of feminism could be that femininity and masculinity lose their meaning in the short term.

Then again, feminism can also be defined as the pursuit of equal rights for women. In which case the cultural result of feminism wouldn't necessarily be the disintegration of masculine and feminine norms themselves.

[Distance]

As a feminist, external opinion is moot to me about my femininity. I define myself where some find this attractive and others don't, which is fine, as long as no one attempts to coercively enforce their concepts of femininity onto me. If the latter happens, their concepts will happily be shoved up their secret hidey holes.

[zibber]

Originally Posted by stasis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The implications are probably somewhat opposed. What is feminine and what is masculine is culturally normative. If feminism is rejective of externalities with regard to masculine and feminine roles then as a movement it can be anti-normative. The cultural result of feminism could be that femininity and masculinity lose their meaning in the short term. Then again, feminism can also be defined as the pursuit of equal rights for women. In which case the cultural result of feminism wouldn't necessarily be the disintegration of masculine and feminine norms themselves.

Good point. "Feminism" has been given a huge amount of definitions over the decades. It is all too often that self-proclaimed "feminists" (myself included) elevate their own interpretation to the standard.

Ultimately, obviously there is no standard. Every term has infinite interpretations, from subject to subject. "Feminism", especially, has become something of a moloch.

[memory]

	Originally Posted by firebee To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If I were to show up to a wedding in an impeccable business suit and tie and execute the social protocol for "gentleman attending a wedding" with considerable grace, would this constitute "feminine" behavior on my part?

So I take it you're a guy and not a female? What you described, as concerning a male, does not found feminine to me, just classy. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "synonym" in my earlier post... it is a little misleading. I meant equating "feminine" with "classy" in the sense of propriety.

[bookbug]

To me feminism simply means having an equal shot at a job as a man if I have the same qualifications, and getting paid the same amount as man for doing the same job. Neither of those things prevents me from being feminine.

[firebee]

	Originally Posted by memory To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So I take it you're a guy and not a female? What you described, as concerning a male, does not found feminine to me, just classy. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "synonym" in my earlier post... it is a little misleading. I meant equating "feminine" with "classy" in the sense of propriety.

It rather depends on your definition of "guy". Generally, your assumption is not all that accurate.

[Zsych]

	Originally Posted by JulietCapulet To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Of course. Unless you think being feminine equates thinking women are inferior to men.

It often does, for women. Much of the attempt at equality is bent towards copying men and male measures of value.