[Tejeira]

Originally Posted by zef To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Hi INTJ women. I would have loved to meet one of you in my younger days. I am the male equivalent. When you are a member of a 1% club, meeting mates can be difficult. Until you do, use the losers. And most of us INTJ males, are equally as creepy. Wait for the right non-creepu one, meanwhile, use the social losers as you see fit. . .and don't tell us creepy males about it once you finally meet us. . .

INTJ's are creepy? I have now known two INTJ men, and they both worry they come across as creepy. I think they're awesome. It's almost like they're uncomfortable with their sexuality or baser animal instincts, to a degree they either shelter it, or it explodes and they inappropriately discuss sex far too often. Is this a "thing" with other INTJ's as well?

---------- Post added 07-11-2012 at 09:06 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Besides, the whole 'this is me' thing is nonsense. If you lack skills, you lack skills. Of course you're not comfortable, confronted with your weaknesses. On the other side you will find people who will hate you for making them think and question things.

This is SO true....when I question certain people, or try to make them think, some people actually get mad. I neutralize the situation so they can see we are working through a process, with no ego involved.....

Then I teach them to walk through a few steps of logic, and show me why they hold that idea as true, and then the defensiveness goes away.

[mieu]

Be yourself and find someone who likes who you as you are, 'quirks' and everything (or even embrace those quirks). My SO bears witness to the emotional breakdowns of mutual friends on their boyfriends, and listens to the laments of his single bros trying to decipher the emotional maps of each new girl that they meet, and he thanks me for being the way that I am (which sounds a little unfair to women who are more emotional, but they were just not a good fit for him). If he needs to know how I feel about something, he knows he can ask and I will tell him. He knows that I will come to him with my concerns before they become a pain-point that makes me explode, and he also likes that I don't lose my cool or break down when he is having an emotional moment (which, unfortunately he does when I have my rare moments).

To Storm's point, I'm with an ESFx, he is way more expressive of his emotions than I am.

[Lilie]

I'm very very uncomfortable expressing my feelings verbally. I always feel so awkward. I mean, not feelings like "I'm kind of tired and just want to read". That kind of thing is easy. But feelings about the other person, oh god.

I got flustered when trying to tell a guy that I liked his hairstyle.

[fatkattykat]

I am probably a rarity among INTJ's, but I can be emotionally reactive, but certainly not gushy. I am borderline T/F.

However, my problem is flirting. I really believe in being honest and authentic with people, while flirting is all about manipulation and getting a response. The last thing I want to do is use emotions to lead things, and even if I tried, I would be TERRIBLE at it! (imagine Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory trying to flirt...that would be me). But because I like to be real with people, when I do have the guts, I am usually good about telling them how I feel.

[Ginger Bred]

I'm probably classic INTJ-- and have been classified in the following ways: "witchy." "B____", stuck up, cold, narcissist, aloof, uncaring, etc.... Without realizing it, I have all of my emotions locked behind a steel door, and I do not know how to fix that, or even if there is a fix. It annoys potential men, but unsure that I can change who I am. Any suggestions?

[Mallaco]

	Originally Posted by ccbeau To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	lol. Is it really vice versa. I would assume that women would find those very same characteristics in a man "intriguing" and "mysterious".. but because of gender stereotypes.. it just seems strange for a woman to encompass those very same traits. .

Yeah that "intriguing" and "mysterious" really does happen but only before a relationship starts, and intimacy grows. After a whole year dating it's just absurd for most people that you don't have any feeling you want to share.

[pensiveINTJ]

Well..I know that I experience things in extremes..If I love someone, I REALLY love them...So sharing that much may not be a problem...It depends...I dated an SF and I purposely eschewed any form of public love or affection because I felt as though it vindicated her outlandish shiftlessness and boorish behavior. Maybe your holding back for affirmative reasons like I was?

[ummon]

Originally Posted by ccbeau To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To my fellow INTJ women, I constantly get told when dating that I don't "share" my feeling enough, or that he can not "feel" where I'm coming from or where we are headed etc.. because I do not open up. Almost like trying to get me to open up about feelings is like hitting a brick wall. I do feel as if I share my thoughts.. but when it comes to my feelings, I do find difficulty expressing the mushy gushy. Even if I'm totally in "like" with someone. It's just not my cup of tea. I'd rather my actions speak for my feelings. Do you get told this alot? How do you cope?

I feel for you. I really do. We male INTJs are lucky enough that we can just chalk it up to being male (men aren't supposed to have emotions anyway). But it must be hard for female INTJs.

[paperclip]

	Originally Posted by ummon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I feel for you. I really do. We male INTJs are lucky enough that we can just chalk it up to being male (men aren't supposed to have emotions anyway). But it must be hard for female INTJs.

It blows. Even if you meet another INxx or what have you the modius operendi of the INTJ is so naturally "male" that there is always this separation between what you are and whats expected of you genderwise.

[Antares]

Being an INTJ female is certainly jarring for many men. Even my boyfriend, who is an INTP, is frustrated because I don't let him "read" me. If I go off into deep thought (or look the part. Frequently I'm not actually thinking), he'd ask me what I was thinking, and I would tell him "nothing" (meaning either I'm thinking nothing, or it's nothing particularly worth discussing), and that throws him off completely. Hang in there. You'll find men who likes that you don't talk about emotions all the time.

[Jade333]

Originally Posted by oddi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I hear ya sister! Speaking from my experience I too am unable to gush over anything except cute puppies. I have had men who required more "goosh" tend to sop it up from ESFP type women. On the other hand, guys like my independence and intrigue. I have learned to tell them I am interested in them as well and follow up my words with actions. The right guys are not intimated by me and tend to be the ones worthy of my time as well. They find my lack of Hallmark BS quite refreshing. A part of me who upsets the guys that want me to act more F-ish need too much ego stroking too. I did end a relationship with an ISFJ and have entered another one with an INTJ--WOW--- night & day--much less emotional small talk--so refreshing.

This is very much like me and what I've experienced. I've been told on a few occasions I'm difficult to read and seem rather cold. I'm also told I'm intimidating and never understand why exactly.

[zeroemission]

find an INTJ or even INTP guy! we can APPRECIATE gals that aren't always obsessed with feelings and annoying social stories about everyone they talked to during the day. less emotion talk is better.

i'd rather freakin' talk about the history of indoor plumbing than that "what are you feeling?" crap any day. you must be meeting ENFP & INFJ guys. LOL

[ummon]

What makes things worse is that women often become quiet if they're unhappy about something, and they expect us to figure out what it is that's wrong.

Honestly, I hope I meet another INTJ and avoid all the drama that other types seem to create.

[zeroemission]

oh that "read my mind' crap IS annoying! especially with irrationals! if you have something to say, just say it!

[Auragasmic]

	Originally Posted by Jade333 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This is very much like me and what I've experienced. I've been told on a few occasions I'm difficult to read and seem rather cold. I'm also told I'm intimidating and never understand why exactly.

I've been described the same way.

[scorpiomover]

	Originally Posted by Seriously To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yep that has been coming up pretty frequently for me lately. I find it odd that men seem to want women who vomit emotion all over them. I figure I will continue to be who I am and eventually will find a man who appreciates the fact that I don't lay it all out there on the first date.

the problem is in the title, "INTJ hot single ladies that date".

She wants to talk about the stuff that guys are into. She doesn't want to talk about the stuff that guys are into. She likes looking at things practically. She doesn't want to talk about "feelings". All good so far, for most men. She's also HOT, which, with 20-25% obesity rate, makes her extremely uncommon, and extremely desirable. That makes her the most desirable choice for a relationship, for about 99% of men. E.G. Rachel Riley:


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See the guy in that photo? He's a MILLIONAIRE, and an IT millionaire at that. They've got all that NT-stuff in common, and he's LOADED. She MARRIED him.

There is every reason why a guy like that, would want a "hot" NT woman too. She might meet a guy like that, or just a smart very rich guy, and go off with him. Or a smart doctor. Or a smart lawyer. Or just any guy really, who can offer her more than he does.

See the problem?

The guy may WANT her. But he doesn't know if she's worth investing his feelings in her, thinking about a future, because she is his dream girl, and he probably would fall head over heels for her, if he let himself, when she might not even care about him at all.

If you like a guy, or even if you don't, the guy probably just needs to hear how you see yourselves, if you see yourselves with a future or not. Then if he sees the two of you with a future as well, which, from what I've read of online posts from men, and spoken to men IRL, is almost certainly going to be that, that's all he needs to know.

[Winklepicker]

I was gonna reiterate Storm's point, also. Ironically, things have worked best for me in this department with ENFP's...I think they have enough "F" for the both of us, and they seem to be often particularly intrigued by us non-feelers, as long as you can at least try to bend a little bit sometimes.

Also, I don't know why, but they draw it out of me so much more readily than other types. And even if they don't draw it out of me spontaneously, they're so in touch with emotions and seem to open and direct about it, they'll just ask me directly, which I love, because it gives me easy opportunity to at least attempt to express myself here.

[MadCatter]

"I'd rather my actions speak for my feelings."

This. I'd much rather show my appreciation or feelings for a person by what I do, not what I say. I also tell people frequently that I'm not much of a toucher... but really that's only partly true. I don't like touching or being touched by somebody I do not feel entirely comfortable with, or if I am not romantically interested in them. In which case, I love physical contact, and I have a much easier time expressing myself through touch, because I don't have to verbalize what I'm feeling.

[Meka]

Originally Posted by ccbeau To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Perhaps you are right. Maybe I need to reassess what I am attracted to out of a male. Although, I am an African American female, and to date within my race and find the qualities that I so admire out of a man, is becoming increasingly disappointing. Hmm. & Ironically.. the more intelligent an African American man is, the more likely it is that he is dating outside of his race. Grr! Paradoxical queries. Absolutely! I agree.

	Originally Posted by ccbeau To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I find absolute relevance in your point of view. That makes total sense.

I had a similar experience. Dating within my race became secondary tho. Ideally I wanted to find a black man and encountered the same situation. Ultimately my questions was, could I find a man whether black white asian etc that would accept me for who I am and who I could be 100% myself with?

I'm told that all these guys find me attractive but perceive me to be stuck-up because I don't start conversations or go out my way to talk to them or flirt. Communicating my feelings is definitely not my strong point. I'm not talkative when it comes to my feelings in general. My ex would complain that I didn't give him a cute nickname or talk about what I felt. He said he thought I didn't care enough about him to ask those kind of questions. Which was not true. In fact I loved him and in my mind everything I DID was evident of how I felt about him. But my philosophical and practical questions about life were not enough.
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[ummon]

Originally Posted by ccbeau To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Perhaps you are right. Maybe I need to reassess what I am attracted to out of a male. Although, I am an African American female, and to date within my race and find the qualities that I so admire out of a man, is becoming increasingly disappointing. Hmm. & Ironically.. the more intelligent an African American man is, the more likely it is that he is dating outside of his race. Grr! Paradoxical queries.

It seems to me like most black women prefer bad boys, forcing the intelligent black men to date outside of their race. Thus, I'd expect they would be perfectly open to dating someone like you who will value them.

Of course, all of this is anecdotal and I have no direct experience of the black dating scene.

P.S. I hope I don't offend you that I use the term "black" instead of "African American". I just feel that "African American" should be based on nationality/ethnicity to refer to first generation immigrants from Africa or second generation children of immigrants from Africa. Whereas "black" should be used to denote the corresponding racial group.

[lazyliberal]

I think it basically comes back to the lack of INTJ men as well as women - as an INTJ man (currently divorcing from an ENFP) the concept of a woman who could tell me what they were thinking and why, without needing/wanting to go into feelings sounds like heaven!

After all if I understand your thoughts then I can do something about them (or choose not to as appropriate). Your feelings, especially when you can't explain them beyond 'this is how I feel', I can't do so much about.

From your point of view yes it probably is just as simple, and difficult, as finding a different sort of guy!

[Venus445]

Yes I gush over my puppies. Yes I put them first. Yes I apparently hold up a sign.

[temi]

... I'm confused. What does being hot have to do with this?

I definitely struggle with the emotional communication aspect of dating. And I'm told that I'm quite attractive, intelligent, confident, kind, etc. so dating should not be a problem for me. But oh yes it is. I'm really really not good at the emotional talk part. I've had guys tell me that they couldn't tell whether I was into them or not, so they just backed off and assumed I wasn't interested. I get frustrated because if I'm talking to you and spending time with you, you can be damned sure I am interested. I don't know what those F girls do to show interest, but I'm fairly certain I would not feel comfortable mimicking their actions. It would likely feel needy or desperate in my book.

What DO they do? I don't date women, so I'm clueless.

[Megalomania]

	Originally Posted by Tejeira To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	INTJ's are creepy? I have now known two INTJ men, and they both worry they come across as creepy. I think they're awesome. It's almost like they're uncomfortable with their sexuality or baser animal instincts, to a degree they either shelter it, or it explodes and they inappropriately discuss sex far too often. Is this a "thing" with other INTJ's as well?

I've been told on more than one occasion that I come across as creepy. I've also been told by a female that I scare her because I look like I could be violent. Both are the furthest thing from the truth. But yes, INTJ behavior is creepy to women. Looking serious, not saying a lot and not being emotive aren't exactly winning traits. On the plus side these sort of traits usually get respect from men because you come across as intimidating.

And I don't know what being comfortable with your sexuality has to do with being perceived as creepy.

[scorpiomover]

	Originally Posted by temi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	... I'm confused. What does being hot have to do with this?

It has nothing to do with it.

But there is a presumption, that dating is far more complex for "hot" women, because men are supposed to only be interested in "hot" women. As a result, many "hot" women have a perception that "all men want to have sex with them".

What I've found talking with other men, is that most men have their own personal criteria for what they find attractive. What one man finds "hot", is often not hot for another guy, and vice versa.

However, coupled with that, are societal values, the values that people are raised to believe. So, coupled with individualistic, subjective, introverted values of what is and is not attractive, are common, objective, extroverte values. So there are certain societal values of what is attractive, that certain women have, that most men would find somewhat attractive, but not all men, and even in those men that find those women attractive, there are other factors and other values that sometimes lessen her attractiveness in comparison to other women who lack some of those societal values of attractiveness but have other values that those men value highly.

In addition, availability factors into the equation very highly. A woman who works in a club, may be a "5". But simply because she is surrounded by men who go there specifically to pick up women, she is bound to be hit on very often. A woman who works in a carpet shop may be a "10". But simply because she works in an environment where men generally don't go there to pick up women, she is likely to be hit on far, far less, and probably far less often than the "5" who works in the club. Even within a club, the woman who works at the bar serving drinks gets far more attention and offers than the cloakroom attendant. Men simply are not thinking about sex when they've just come in, and are taking off their coats to get into the club as quickly as possible, or when they are on their way home, either because they've already met someone to take home, or are fed up and decided to give up and go home.

From what I've read, INTJ women tend to find that they get on with men far better than women, and so spend a lot more time with men than women, and the men they do talk to, find they have much more in common with her, than most women. They tend to avoid most social situations, where a lot of attractive women would go, in order to meet as many men as possible, so as to maximise their chances of meeting a desirable mate, and where most men who think they have a good chance of being attractive to women, would be likely to go, for exactly the same reason. Their introversion means that when they do spend time with someone, they tend to spend a lot more time with the same people, even if it's just to go to the same local shop for the groceries. These factors alone, mean that they are probably going to meet men who do not generally meet women all that often, and generally believe they are not that attractive to most women, and who suddenly and unexpectedly find that the woman they are talking to, has a huge amount in common with them, and far more than with most women, and prefer spending a lot of time with them. far more than most women do.

In addition, most INTJ women seem to have posted that they have a strong commitment to a health regime to take care of their appearance, and to eat well and exercise regularly, which generally produce a fit appearance, of the type that counts as very attractive to men, in terms of common societal values. So naturally, they also appear to be very physically attractive to most men.

As you can imagine, all these factors get them a lot of attention from many men. However, INTJs generally avoid attention, and don't pick up on social observations, particularly what happens to everyone else. An in-shape INTJ woman in her 20s, may go over to the local hardware store to pick up a belt sander, and get a lot of comment from the guys there. She thinks that means she's "hot". What she often doesn't notice, is that EVERY woman her age who enters that hardware store, gets the same attention, even the very fat women her age. She just doesn't pay attention to what goes on. She also thinks that means that the guys "want" her. She doesn't actually talk to the guys, to find out WHY they talk to her right away. She relies on her intuition to tell her why. If she did, then she'd find that half the guys in the hardware store do it, just to make the woman feel like she is wanted there, as few women are comfortable to go such male-dominated establishments, just to get more women to buy there, and just to be polite, and the other half are playing a "numbers game", chattng up EVERY woman her age who comes in, just so that SOME will give them a date.

A LOT of women don't do much investigation or analysis of the male psyche. They often assume that men are only into sex, and are stupid. Most men LIKE women to believe this. It's far more easy to get a woman to do what you want, if she underestimates your intelligence, and the complexities of your desires. It's really no difference than when a woman pretends to not know anything about poker, and then takes all the men's money. The only difference is that women don't realise that there is a global male gender, a generally agreed-upon set of behaviours, that present a certain unrealistic vision of men, that most men collude in, to appear consistent, that gives women these false impressions about men.

If a woman thinks men don't think much about the complexities of dating, she really doesn't know men at all.

Originally Posted by temi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I definitely struggle with the emotional communication aspect of dating. And I'm told that I'm quite attractive, intelligent, confident, kind, etc. so dating should not be a problem for me. But oh yes it is. I'm really really not good at the emotional talk part. I've had guys tell me that they couldn't tell whether I was into them or not, so they just backed off and assumed I wasn't interested. I get frustrated because if I'm talking to you and spending time with you, you can be damned sure I am interested. I don't know what those F girls do to show interest, but I'm fairly certain I would not feel comfortable mimicking their actions. It would likely feel needy or desperate in my book. What DO they do? I don't date women, so I'm clueless.

Look at what typical women do when around men. Talk to such women. ASK THEM what they do. But most importantly, ASK THEM WHY!

For instance, a lot of women play with their hair. If you talk to men, they'll say that it's an unconscious sign of attractiveness. If you talk to women, they'll say that they often do it deliberately, but do it in an off-hand manner, to appear as if they are only playing with their hair unconsciously, to give men the impression that they are unconsciously attracted to men, but aren't deliberately manipulating men, so that men will feel as if it's worth approaching them, without a fear that the men might get taken advantage of by those women.

You have to learn all those social conventions, from other women, if you want to know what the accepted social signals are, to attract men.

But be warned. A lot of women are often jealous of other women who have qualities that are more attractive to men, than them. The ability to talk to a man, is one. So is being thinner than them, younger than them, and any number of characteristics. You have to be very careful to check for yourself if your "friend" isn't lying to you. She may be telling you how to push men away. She may even be telling you how to be perceived as a naive slut. She may even be spreading rumours about you. A lot of young women have made that mistake, and got a very bad time as a result.

---------- Post added 10-21-2012 at 01:38 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by Megalomania To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've been told on more than one occasion that I come across as creepy.

I was told that once. The girl in question, added that she'd rather have a guy be upfront that he is attracted to her, and wants to have sex with her, than a guy who pretends to be her friends, and then lets her know of his ardour much later.

Mind you, once I took that on board, and started letting women know upfront that I was attracted to them, and kept reminding them, I found that initially, I annoyed women, but after a while, they often made the transition from friend to "interested".