[azelismia]

	Originally Posted by hauteur To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The last I checked, killing animals for food is not considered murder by anyone but the strictest vegans. Killing humans is almost universally considered as murder.

I consider killing animals murder. People like to put up a wall between the suffering of other types of animals and humans because they couldn't live with their actions if they admitted the truth. it's never going to be a popular notion for that reason, but really.. what we do to other animals is quite barbaric and holocaustic. We just have conditioned ourselves not to care.

[Moriarty]

	Originally Posted by azelismia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I consider killing animals murder. People like to put up a wall between the suffering of other types of animals and humans because they couldn't live with their actions if they admitted the truth. it's never going to be a popular notion for that reason, but really.. what we do to other animals is quite barbaric and holocaustic. We just have conditioned ourselves not to care.

That's getting a bit into the silly side of things. Ever watch the Discovery Channel? How do you feel when a cheetah catches a baby antelope and crushes its throat?

I'm the kind of guy who picks bugs up and throws them outside if I find them in the house, but to say that I'm eating a murder victim if I grill a burger is just silly.

[azelismia]

	Originally Posted by Moriarty To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That's getting a bit into the silly side of things. Ever watch the Discovery Channel? How do you feel when a cheetah catches a baby antelope and crushes its throat? I'm the kind of guy who picks bugs up and throws them outside if I find them in the house, but to say that I'm eating a murder victim if I grill a burger is just silly.

yup, a cheetah killing a baby antelope is murdering it. Has to do it for survival but there you are, murder anyway. We subject food supplies to pretty bad lives. Free range critters don't have it so bad but commercial farming is brutal. Torture and murder. We like to make other species less than us, justifying it that way. but the truth is other animals have awareness. (notice I say "other ANIMALS") Other animals can experience fear, pain and suffering. There isn't a lot of difference between the way we treat cattle for instance and the way the nazi's treated the Jews. Justify it away to ease your conscience but the truth is brutal.

[Sara27]

It's interesting to me that most people site the beef industry when making a point about how food animals are treated. The beef industry is one of the best at providing good lives to their animals. There are always exceptions, but I wouldn't condemn every parent because child abuse exists.

There is a HUGE difference between the way animals are treated and the way the Nazi's treated the Jews and I resent the parallel. Just because PETA says that it's true doesn't make it so. I wonder if you've ever been to a farm? How about worked on one?

I agree that animals experience fear, pain, and suffering, but besides the Great Apes there is no reason to believe in your self-awareness statement. I strongly believe that we need to treat all animals in our care with love and compassion. I have raised animals for food and have loved them and treated them very well while they were in my care. Yes, I sold them for meat. That was their purpose, the reason they were bred in the first place.

Do you also belive that forced coppulation in the avian world is the same as a man raping a woman?

[rwyatt365]

Technically, in the English language, "murder" is the killing of one human being by another human being. Given that, an animal cannot be murdered, but it can be killed.

Putting that out of the way, and accepting the premise that an animal CAN be murdered, I see nothing unethical about killing ("murdering") an animal for food. I understand clearly that every steak, chop, leg and thigh that I eat comes from another living entity, and that it had to die in order that consume it. I can easily live with that action. It's not a matter of whether I care, or not. It's a matter of whether I care about myself, and my life over that of the animal that died for my benefit. And frankly, the answer is - I care about me.

Selfish? Yes. Realistic. Absolutely

The fact of the matter is that I am not so far removed from the cheetah that runs down the baby gazelle. It kills to survive - so do I. The difference is that the cheetah performs it's own killing, whereas I don't. But, indeed, I have. I have gone out to the chicken coop and caught (with a great deal of difficulty) the chicken that ended up in the pot that evening (thanks Grandma!). I had no qualms then, and I don't now. I know exactly where on the cow my Porterhouse came from and I'm not ashamed to savour every bite (and be thankful).

I will agree that the conditions that many of our feed-animals live (and die) under are deplorable. I won't apologize for any of that. So, if you're up in arms about that, I'm right with you. But if you're suggesting that humans "cease and desist" from eating meat because animals have feeling too then I'm out. My conscience is quite clear.

[azelismia]

Originally Posted by Sara27 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It's interesting to me that most people site the beef industry when making a point about how food animals are treated. The beef industry is one of the best at providing good lives to their animals. There are always exceptions, but I wouldn't condemn every parent because child abuse exists. There is a HUGE difference between the way animals are treated and the way the Nazi's treated the Jews and I resent the parallel. Just because PETA says that it's true doesn't make it so. I wonder if you've ever been to a farm? How about worked on one? I agree that animals experience fear, pain, and suffering, but besides the Great Apes there is no reason to believe in your self-awareness statement. I strongly believe that we need to treat all animals in our care with love and compassion. I have raised animals for food and have loved them and treated them very well while they were in my care. Yes, I sold them for meat. That was their purpose, the reason they were bred in the first place. Do you also belive that forced coppulation in the avian world is the same as a man raping a woman?

the issue at hand has nothing to do with the avian world and breeding. pls stick to the topic.

What is this huge difference in the way nazi's treated the Jews and the way animals are treated on large farms and slaughter houses? You say there is a huge difference but do not back it up.

I am not just citing the beef industry. I am citing all of the industry. humane practices are for the most part, not in place. keeping cows in stalls all of their life (Except possibly when they are calves still) is humane adn unlike the treatment the Jews got in Concentration camps? the method of death is kinder perhaps? it isn't done enmass?

What makes you so sure other species are not self aware? We have tests that we give them. but that doesn't mean they care about the things we care about enough to follow our testing methods. they are built differently than we are with different survival needs. why should they show the same signals or respond to the same signals that we do. but it's a mistake to assume they are not self aware because of this.

I've seen examples from my cats and other peoples dogs that certainly show self awareness. My cat knows who he is in the mirror and he knows where I am in the mirror behind him. He watches things going on behind him and then attacks when the time is right. When you give one a bath the other knows to be on alert. so on and so forth.

[Double Victory]

I have a problem with animal cruelty as well. I can't watch those discovery animal shows, because I feel bad if the cheetah catches the antelope because the antelope has to die, but I also feel bad if the cheetah doesn't catch the antelope, because then it's cubs are going to go hungry.

It might be a little stupid, but when I have to think about the wild, I always think the Lion King, and Mufasa's speech to Simba, where he talks about the circle of life. At least that helps me with the wild a little bit.

But when it comes to humans.... we can be horrible. I understand killing animals to eat. It's necessary. I don't have a problem with it, as long as the animals are treated humanely. But the problem is that they aren't.

I don't listen to PETA--they've been accused of animal cruelty themselves, and they have been proven time after time to flat out lie about things.

Cattle do have it good compared to other animals waiting for slaughter, like chickens. I read a story quite some time ago about how an autistic girl revolutionized the cattle industry because she sort of acted the same way that cattle did--she helped design a system that would alleviate cattle anxiety, and therefore made it a little bit more humane.

But chicken? I won't pretend to have absolute fact, but I've heard so many horror stories about the poor things.

That and animal cruelty in general--dog and cock fighting? I watch a lot of those animal rescue shows on Animal Planet.... some of the animals that get rescued make me cry because of how much they've suffered. I think there should be much tougher penalties for animal cruelty like that. I mean, you look at a dog, and it absolutely loves you, and can't wait until you get home, and all it wants is a little attention, and then these people go and leave them tied up alone with collars that cut into their skin, and no food, shelter, or water for days. Animals shouldn't have to live like that.

About animal self-awareness--what about dolphins? They've been proven to communicate, not only with themselves, but also humans. Cuttlefish? They are extremely intelligent. Cats--some of them chase laser pointers, and some of them stare at your hand where the laser pointer is coming from. I think there's a lot more to animal self-awareness and intelligence than we know about. They have varying IQs among themselves, just like we do. Everyone's known a super smart dog, and a "dumb" dog.

[Beery Swine]

	Originally Posted by azelismia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I consider killing animals murder. People like to put up a wall between the suffering of other types of animals and humans because they couldn't live with their actions if they admitted the truth. it's never going to be a popular notion for that reason, but really.. what we do to other animals is quite barbaric and holocaustic. We just have conditioned ourselves not to care.

Okay, let's forget this idea of murder for any animal, including humans, and just look at suffering. What is suffering? Pain is too narrow a definition, I think most will agree. What then? I suppose psychological trauma of any kind. After all, pain is just what the brain interprets.

So, can we agree that murder = just one possible byproduct of suffering, which is really what we want to avoid, and that suffering = psych trauma? We can go into tedious definitions of psych trauma if you want.





Beery Swine added to this post, 2 minutes and 51 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by Double Victory To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I understand killing animals to eat. It's necessary.

Okay, I think that is the worst argument in the context of modern society. It is not necessary for humans to kill any animals, in fact I'm pretty sure its detrimental to world hunger and poverty.

[Mozzes]

I'm half in agreement with azelismia but for different reasons. I'm generally against animal consumption for two reasons. The first is that there's a lot to suggest commercially raised animals simply aren't very healthy to eat - it's most likely grain feed which throws the fatty acid profile of the meat out of whack. The second is that commercial animal farming is environmentally destructive.

That being said I do still eat fish regularly much of which I catch myself and if you want me to stop you'll have to pry my fishing pole from my cold, dead hands!

[hauteur]

Originally Posted by azelismia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

What is this huge difference in the way nazi's treated the Jews and the way animals are treated on large farms and slaughter houses? You say there is a huge difference but do not back it up. I am not just citing the beef industry. I am citing all of the industry. humane practices are for the most part, not in place. keeping cows in stalls all of their life (Except possibly when they are calves still) is humane adn unlike the treatment the Jews got in Concentration camps? the method of death is kinder perhaps? it isn't done enmass?

I live in Kansas City, MO - one of the primary beef capitals of the U.S. We are best known for all of our fountains and, you guessed it - BBQ. What this means is that I've seen lots of cattle farms. Lots and lots and lots of them. I even lived on one for a couple of years. Of the hundreds of cattle farms I've seen, I've yet to see one where all the cattle are kept in pens.

Where I think what you are looking for are the big corporate farms and I would agree that they are deplorable. Same thing for pigs, chickens, turkey, you name it.

The fact that the large corporate farms do this does not mean that it is unethical to eat meat. We're built to do it and we like to do it - most of us anyway. What it does mean is that there should probably be stricter enforcment and I'm not opposed to that.

Besides, if God didn't want us to eat animals, He wouldn't have made them out of meat.
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[TheLastMohican]

	Originally Posted by Beery Swine To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Okay, I think that is the worst argument in the context of modern society. It is not necessary for humans to kill any animals, in fact I'm pretty sure its detrimental to world hunger and poverty.

The Inuit are a bit short on agricultural development.





TheLastMohican added to this post, 1 minutes and 55 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by azelismia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Justify it away to ease your conscience but the truth is brutal.

Natural selection is also brutal. The world is brutal. That's the way it is. I wouldn't bother trying to fix it.

[Monte314]

I believe "kill" means "take a life", whether human or animal.

I've always thought of "murder" as "the unauthorized taking of a human life".

If this is adjusted a little bit (by removing the word "human"), it becomes:

"Murder is the unauthorized taking of a life." I suppose this could be shortened to, "Murder is unathorized killing."

Of course, these definitions make a distinction between "killing" and "murder"; the issue is the "authorization" part. If someone breaks into my house, and I believe they have unlawful intent, I can kill them without having committed "murder". This is because the State of Florida has explicitly authorized people to kill intruders they believe pose a threat. This killing is NOT murder as far as the state is concerned.

Back to the animal question, then: I believe that the humane killing of animals for reasonable uses is "authorized" by a morally competent authority, so it isn't murder.

[replicant]

I have lived on a farm. We grew things versus processed things. We did have a nearby tributary from which we fished. We hunted deer, rabbit etc. I eat meat. I am unapologetic about my need to acquire the nutrients that I need to survive. I don't eat excessive amounts of meat. Living things require each other for survival. It is sad that we have to take life from animals and plants but its the circle of existence.

I won't pretend that the mass gathering of livestock and such isn't disturbing. I would prefer they have a healthy life that allows them to live naturally before we chose to kill them for survival. Killing is indeed brutal. And yes, I do look down at my chicken and get sad but I would do so with a vegetable. Yes, it sounds sappy but it does hurt to know that I played a part in their demise, but I can only feel but so bad. I want to survive and yeah that is selfish.

I definitely do not approve of animal cruelty.

[lambpox]

I'm a strict vegan, and yes I consider killing animals for their meat murder. Some might view it differently, but killing animals is the worst choice for the earth today and the population. Do you know how much money is spent feeding livestock grains, and other foods that the STARVING could have easily eaten? Unless we stop wasting food, water, and other resources by producing meat, dairy products, and eggs, there simply will not be enough food to go around! It takes 16 pounds of grain to make one pound of meat. We can just eat the grain. Yeah, whatever, I understand that beef, chicken and fish can be tasty to some. But, I'm not asking for everyone to change, because I know that will never happen. I just find it wrong how humans can mutilate weaker things and use it for their own good...if the world found out that a company was producing farms full of domestic dogs and cats for our own consumption, people would flip. Humans today sadly just view livestock as objects made for eating, and not living beings with emotions and feelings. People have changed their status to justify their wrongdoings. /rant

[replicant]

I think what I disagree with Lambpox is the idea of "wrong how humans can mutilate weaker things and use it for their own good" idea. This sort of statement leads one to believe that we are better than the rest of nature. More endowed in our own opinion of ourselves are we but in truth we are but a rung on the latter of life. Animals kill us as well. If the opportunity presents itself, a predator will prey upon a human being. By sheer number, we have an advantage as well as and we have a keen intellect that aides us as well.

I respect your right to be Vegan.

However, certain health conditions can make a vegan lifestyle very hard on a human. Vitamins alone will not cure things.

And it is of your opinion that killing animals is a wrongdoing but we are animals and that is what animals do. It's not an unnatural thing.

What I can agree with is the misuse of resources.

[lambpox]

And I respect your right in eating meat; trust me, I have argued since I was a tot, I think. Everyone has their own right to pursue something, and I can't stop that. I understand the health conditions, and I try to live the best I can. I feel happy though, not consuming any animal products. It has made me a better person, more aware of the things around me. Yeah, I am only 15. But, I try to live the best I can.

[thegnat]

I say killing animals to eat for food is the circle of life. Cruel, but true. We aren't any superior to other animals. I completely respect vegans/vegetarians' choices. It is a more green way to live. I don't eat a lot of meat though.

Raising them to eat? Iffy on. Depends on how they raise them and kill them and how good the animals' lives are before their deaths. And I'm uncomfortable with slaughter. But I try not to think of that when I eat meat.

Euthanasia: To end suffering, absolutely for it. For example, Eight Belles, a racehorse (
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) broke both her front ankles on the track. She was euthanized. She couldn't have lived well no matter how hard they tried to save her. Animals that aren't savable who are living poor poor lives, I hate to say it, but I'm for euthanasia.

Animal Cruelty: Unforgivable.

[Lucid]

Originally Posted by thegnat To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I say killing animals to eat for food is the circle of life. Cruel, but true. We aren't any superior to other animals. I completely respect vegans/vegetarians' choices. It is a more green way to live. I don't eat a lot of meat though. Raising them to eat? Iffy on. Depends on how they raise them and kill them and how good the animals' lives are before their deaths. And I'm uncomfortable with slaughter. But I try not to think of that when I eat meat. Euthanasia: To end suffering, absolutely for it. For example, Eight Belles, a racehorse ( To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ) broke both her front ankles on the track. She was euthanized. She couldn't have lived well no matter how hard they tried to save her. Animals that aren't savable who are living poor poor lives, I hate to say it, but I'm for euthanasia. Animal Cruelty: Unforgivable.

I agree with all that except being uncomfortable with slaughter. It's the way of things. I was fortunate enough to be born at the top of the food chain, they weren't. That sucks, but really, life isn't about sunshine and hugs and smurfs. For a lot of species and a lot of humans a lot of it really sucks (and that's with or without humans interfering) and that's just the way it is. I am against humans being cruel to animals, but they suffer with or without us.

[thegnat]

Yeah, I realize slaughter is the way of things. But I couldn't go "YEAAAAH! I'm pro-slaughter!!!" Like...selling an animal just for slaughter bugs me. Or treating it like crap then sending it to slaughter because "it had problems" bugs me. Or rounding up animals to knowingly most likely go to a slaughter house...bugs me. Which, the reasons for the rounding up and calling them "pests" are lame. This is all from what I've read on horse slaughter....A couple of those are just things that I don't really like which really could be argued from a "it's life" standpoint, but treating it like crap is unforgivable animal cruelty in my book. So I can't really say it's all bad either.

[GrimWizard]

	Originally Posted by replicant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It is sad that we have to take life from animals and plants but its the circle of existence.

I'm glad someone actually mentioned taking the life of plants.

Isn't being a Vegan just saying you value one type of life over another? Is it because plants don't have a face that makes it ok to kill them and not animals? Will no one speak for the trees!!

All life is pretty much equal to me, if I must kill to live then I might as well be fair about it. Tasting good helps too...

[TheLastMohican]

	Originally Posted by GrimWizard To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm glad someone actually mentioned taking the life of plants.

Oh, shoot. I guess we'll have to eat snow.

[Mozzes]

	Originally Posted by TheLastMohican To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Oh, shoot. I guess we'll have to eat snow.

And kill our
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? You heartless bastard!

[Lucid]

	Originally Posted by TheLastMohican To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Oh, shoot. I guess we'll have to eat snow.

Yeah. Life survives on other life. Kind of a crappy system, but what are you going to do? And animals suffer in the wild too. In fact, there are many many worse ways to go than anal electrocution. While I'm against cruelty to animals (very strongly against), suffering is a pretty big part of life for everything involved.

[Mozzes]

	Originally Posted by GrimWizard To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm glad someone actually mentioned taking the life of plants. Isn't being a Vegan just saying you value one type of life over another? Is it because plants don't have a face that makes it ok to kill them and not animals? Will no one speak for the trees!! All life is pretty much equal to me, if I must kill to live then I might as well be fair about it. Tasting good helps too...

It's probably for a couple of reasons. Plants don't think and they are naturally sedentary and as a result don't suffer trauma from factory farming. They also lack a nervous system so any mistakes in the slaughter (harvest) process isn't going to cause pain to the individual.

You also have to keep in mind that in many cases we don't actually eat plants - we eat the fruit of the plant. That's actually what most vegetables are.

[schwartzie]

At least part of the problem with eating meat isn't just an ethics issue--rather, it's just that meat is gross. Modern animal husbandry includes feeding to birds, cows, sheep, goats, and pigs assorted animal-based proteins. The result, among other things, is that when cows are fed ground up sheep bits, they are at risk of contracting sheep-borne diseases. Like "mad cow." Bleah!

So this is maybe not an ethical dilemma from the consumer's perspective, but would seem to be for the producer. One would think that farmers would learn to not use methods that undermines confidence in food integrity. The result of stuffing cows full of 'bovine growth' hormones is that consumers questioned the wholesomeness of milk, found it wanting, began buying milk labelled as containing no BGH, and, overall, drank less cow's milk. Ditto for poultry. Most chicken factories keep birds alive long enough to be butcherable only because they are fed, in every bite of feed, nasty growth hormones and antibiotics in amounts sufficient to keep the beasts alive in otherwise unhealthily stressful conditions. We get to eat the unmetabolised drugs in their system along with our poor-quality meats.

Somewhere someone urged bison consumption; good advice. Bison are generally grass-fed, more flavorful, and advertized as being organic. There are also free-range, organic, and halal options for most meat. When these products are laid along the more usual ones, the difference to the palate is pretty amazing.

So far as the ethics-related issues, it is not a defense that some creature would not have been bred but for the demand for its flesh. It would be better to not exist than to endure the brutal life in many modern meat factories. There are ethics implications to the wastefulness of meat-growing. Vegetable-based proteins are significantly more efficient; one can shift one's diet to include more plant proteins: gluten, mock duck, bean curd, tempeh, TVP, quinoa, soy, beans, corn, etc. and to to include "recyclable" proteins, like eggs and cheeses. Fewer resources would be needed to feed us, and could at least theoretically be available to feed people where food is scarce.