[Opressoliber]

What is it with man and symbols?

The are military parades that are utterly waste of taxpayers' money.
In sports,there is showboating.

The UK just spent some millions of public funds on security for a royal wedding.
Women have a huge attachment to marriage,etc

Why do we attach such importance to symbolism?

[soffbord]

What do expect when the average IQ is 100? And that's if we look at the "smart" countries, it's even lower in the rest of the world. With such level of IQ it's no wonder that commercials, symbols and all other bullshit exist...

[blueback]

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What is it with man and symbols?

Symbols allow communication and collective memory. They're kind of a big deal.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The are military parades that are utterly waste of taxpayers' money.

No one IN a military parades WANTS to be there. And that's the point. Have you ever seen any other situation in which a thousand human beings all did the same exact thing, despite none of them wanting to? No? Well, that's because the military parade is a public demonstration of the tax-payer's dollars at work. A guy who will clean his uniform, and stand in the sun for hours, and do exactly what he's told, and not leave until he's dismissed, just might show up for a war as well.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In sports,there is showboating.

Not sure how that's symbolism. Always seemed like run of the mill performing for entertainment value to me. A showboat is more interesting than a non-showboat. And what is ports if not entertainment?

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The UK just spent some millions of public funds on security for a royal wedding.

You are suggesting they shouldn't have had security?

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Women have a huge attachment to marriage,etc

You mean to the ceremony? Yeah, the bitches be runnin' wild.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why do we attach such importance to symbolism?

It's the only way we have of obtaining even a glimmer of insight into what other people are thinking...and what other people are thinking is important.

	Originally Posted by soffbord To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What do expect when the average IQ is 100?

LOL, a score of 100 is DEFINED as average. As scores change over time the average is adjusted so that it always falls on 100.

[soffbord]

	Originally Posted by blueback To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	LOL, a score of 100 is DEFINED as average. As scores change over time the average is adjusted so that it always falls on 100.

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[blueback]

"Lynn and Vanhanen calculated the national IQs in relation to a British mean of 100, with a standard deviation of 15. They adjusted all test results to account for the Flynn effect: adjustments were 2 points per decade for Raven's Progressive Matrices and 3 points per decade for all other types of tests"

[BuShinJu]

Symbols represent ideas.

Ideas are the most powerful thing in the universe.

Mass indoctrination.

[Opressoliber]

	Originally Posted by blueback To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Symbols allow communication and collective memory. They're kind of a big deal. It's the only way we have of obtaining even a glimmer of insight into what other people are thinking...and what other people are thinking is important.

So does the written word.

Symbols as a mean of communication are grossly overrated.They are usually the equivalent of castles built in the skies: they present a false view of the situation.

It's like a dog barking really loudly, you think you've pissed off a bulldog or something,but when you turn around, you realise it is Paris Hilton's Chihuahua.

	No one IN a military parades WANTS to be there. And that's the point. Have you ever seen any other situation in which a thousand human beings all did the same exact thing, despite none of them wanting to? No?

By this logic, you might as well make the people peel potatoes or engage in patriotic weaving.

Large scale PT or light infantry exercices if done correctly are also not fun either, but these serve actual functions.I would be more impressed if the US military could get people to exercise instead of training for the War of 1812.

There is such a thing as "specificity in training" and military ceremony is the farthest thing from war I can think of (except maybe basket weaving).

	Well, that's because the military parade is a public demonstration of the tax-payer's dollars at work. A guy who will clean his uniform, and stand in the sun for hours, and do exactly what he's told, and not leave until he's dismissed, just might show up for a war as well.

No. Absolutely not. This guy that is standing for hours is just be afraid of getting charged (or getting yelled at). It is nowhere near comparable to asking to risk one's life.

Iraqi army and the mother of all battles anyone?

	Not sure how that's symbolism. Always seemed like run of the mill performing for entertainment value to me. A showboat is more interesting than a non-showboat. And what is ports if not entertainment?

Of course it is symbolism, it is to convey the message you consider your opposition is so weak you don't give a shit about keeping a serious demeanor... which might not be the case at all. It is not meant solely as entertainment.

	You are suggesting they shouldn't have had security?

Did I say so?

I would expect the state to take reasonable steps to protect a citizen if his life were in danger.

They should have done it in private and paid for their own security. A reason why assuring the security of the royals is so expensive is the extravagance of their holdings (ex: number of country estates).

To use an analogy:
if somebody on witness protection program would insist on being a public figure and minor celebrity at the same time, the state cannot reasonably be expected to provide for his security.

	You mean to the ceremony? Yeah, the bitches be runnin' wild.

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[PrometheusENTJ]

Panem et Circenses!
Lots of precedent. Military Triumphs of Caesar, Cyrus the Great etc.
Life without grandiosity and metaphor is just not appealing to humans, howsoever ordinary they be! Symbolism started early with totems, the mystery of death was just too much to take as-is.

Quoting Joseph Campbell:

	Myths are public dreams, dreams are private myths.

Also would like to quote Yeats:

	But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.

[Chameleon]

To show ones mark upon the grand scheme of things. To say hello world I am Joe, I was born, I lived, and this is how the world will remember me. I am not just a withering stone in the steam of time, I am the marker of a certain time. Do you hear my misquoted words world; Or be it better they etched in stone?

[blueback]

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So does the written word.

Some people are illiterate, or read another language, and either way a picture is still worth a thousand words.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Large scale PT or light infantry exercices if done correctly are also not fun either, but these serve actual functions.I would be more impressed if the US military could get people to exercise instead of training for the War of 1812.

You know why every culture in the world has at least one ceremony? Because our lives are nasty, brutish and short. One of the ways we deal with this reality is by layering abstract concepts on top of it. For these concepts to help us they have to be shown to be important. To show they're important we devote resources to them, and nothing else.

That is where weddings, funerals and parades come from. The POINT is that they are dramatically impractical. If they were practical, they wouldn't inspire anyone.

Military parades in particular (and parades in general) are usually for honoring something. The symbolism is intended to to communicate that an IDEA is so important all these people are willing to devote resources to nothing other than reminding people about the idea. People go to watch training camp because they want to see football players practicing. People go to parades because they want to see service members get dressed up, show off how disciplined they are, and say some nice words about a person, flag or event.

Whether or not you personally agree with the message, you can't fail to understand the function. It's not that complicated.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There is such a thing as "specificity in training" and military ceremony is the farthest thing from war I can think of (except maybe basket weaving).

And you base this opinion on your extensive military experience?

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No. Absolutely not. This guy that is standing for hours is just be afraid of getting charged (or getting yelled at). It is nowhere near comparable to asking to risk one's life.

Oh, no, you don't seem to have any military experience. Never mind.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Did I say so?

That's a stupid response. I put a question mark at the end because it was a question. Duh.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I would expect the state to take reasonable steps to protect a citizen if his life were in danger.

What is reasonable varies in accordance with the threat. Royals, and the crowds that gather to watch them get married, are a far more attractive target than pretty much anything else in the world. So a "reasonable" security effort in that situation is an order of magnitude larger than on a normal day.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	To use an analogy: if somebody on witness protection program would insist on being a public figure and minor celebrity at the same time, the state cannot reasonably be expected to provide for his security.

Yeah...but if someone ISN'T in the witness protection program, and IS a celebrity...

You don't try very hard, do you? None of these objections make sense. Well, the showboating one kind of did, but that's it.

[SongofSeptember]

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So does the written word. Symbols as a mean of communication are grossly overrated.They are usually the equivalent of castles built in the skies: they present a false view of the situation. It's like a dog barking really loudly, you think you've pissed off a bulldog or something,but when you turn around, you realise it is Paris Hilton's Chihuahua.

If that was supposed to be self-demonstrating, congratulations. Although I wouldn't conflate symbolism with either misused cliches or nonsensical analogies if I were you.

[larrysb]

The great thing about symbols is that the meaning is entirely in the perspective and interpretation of the viewer.

Jung believed that the "ancient" part of the mind and the subconscious operated though symbols and that dreams are symbolic communication from the unconscious mind.

May I suggest reading, "Man and His Symbols" by Carl G. Jung? If you do, trouble yourself to find the hardcover edition. The plates and illustrations are well worth seeing in as much glory as possible.

[Opressoliber]

Originally Posted by blueback To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You know why every culture in the world has at least one ceremony? Because our lives are nasty, brutish and short. One of the ways we deal with this reality is by layering abstract concepts on top of it. For these concepts to help us they have to be shown to be important. To show they're important we devote resources to them, and nothing else. The symbolism is intended to to communicate that an IDEA is so important all these people are willing to devote resources to nothing other than reminding people about the idea.

That is a shit answer. The nastier, more brutish and shorter our lives are, the more we are inclined to spend our time and resources on stuff that are ACTUALLY USEFUL.

If it were true, western countries would have the shortest, most insignificant ceremonies ... which is clearly not the case.

Life in western countries is neither nasty, brutish or short. You have a distorted view of reality.

	People go to watch training camp because they want to see football players practicing. People go to parades because they want to see service members get dressed up, show off how disciplined they are, and say some nice words about a person, flag or event.

Yes, except those football players are not devoting any resources to showing off maybe except to put up lawn chairs for the onlookers.

	And you base this opinion on your extensive military experience?

Are you so fucking thick that you need your superior officer to tell you that if you do left-right-left for 6 hours straight it won't help you fire a rifle better (or fly a plane or whatever you do in wartime)?
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Referral to autorithy.
Mad logical fallacy here bro. I could be an illeterate man in Zimbabwe, it wouldn't change the fact that you are spouting bullshit as usual. Just ask the Russian army what they think of the Chechen resistance.
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Or the Iraqi soldiers who attempted to surrender to a US drone.

Impressive military drill...but Hmmm... looks like that bullshit symbolism/military parade does not work after all!!!

Symbols =/= reality

	That's a stupid response. I put a question mark at the end because it was a question. Duh.

You asked a stupid question. I cannot be faulted for you inviting Duh moments.

	What is reasonable varies in accordance with the threat. Royals, and the crowds that gather to watch them get married, are a far more attractive target than pretty much anything else in the world. So a "reasonable" security effort in that situation is an order of magnitude larger than on a normal day.

Make them do it privately, no more need for security. The state cannot be expected to pay for the extravagance of a private citizen.

	Yeah...but if someone ISN'T in the witness protection program, and IS a celebrity...

Then tell them to fuck off and make them pay for their own expenses.
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If the royals wanted privacy, they would have gotten it.

[blueback]

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That is a shit answer. The nastier, more brutish and shorter our lives are, the more we are inclined to spend our time and resources on stuff that are ACTUALLY USEFUL.

Nasty, brutish and short is a PERCEPTION. Everyone in the world PERCEIVES their life to be nasty (why are bad things always happening to ME?) brutish (nice guys always finish last) and short (gee, I really wish I could live a little bit longer).

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If it were true, western countries would have the shortest, most insignificant ceremonies ... which is clearly not the case.

You're interpreting psychology incorrectly. When it doesn't take much of your time or resources to provide for your basic needs (food, etc) you tend to spend A LOT of time doing things for abstract reasons. The harder it is for someone to live, the less time and energy they have to devote to abstract ideas. That means that, proportionally, a TINY gesture carries a lot of weight, because it's a large percentage of their disposable resources. When someone has a ton of disposable resources, the same percentage necessary be be considered significant is a larger amount of real stuff.

The proportion is the same, but the measured amount is larger, because 10% of 100 is bigger than 10% of 1.

If you live in the desert, and are half-starved all the time, someone spitting to sign a deal is significant. That little mouthful of water is a big deal, so the symbolism carries weight. If you're rich, and have never known the feeling of not drinking for days, then spitting carries no positive weight at all, because you have water to spare. You have to give up more "water" in a real sense to meet the same percentage standard.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yes, except those football players are not devoting any resources to showing off maybe except to put up lawn chairs for the onlookers.

Exactly. That's why there's no symbolism at training camp.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Are you so fucking thick that you need your superior officer to tell you that if you do left-right-left for 6 hours straight it won't help you fire a rifle better (or fly a plane or whatever you do in wartime)? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It does help, actually. Self-discipline and esprit de corps, once developed, are universally applicable. It doesn't matter how you build them up, they always work. You'd know that if you had any military experience.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In any case, you are spouting bullshit as usual. Just ask the Russian army what they think of the Chechen resistance. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Or the Iraqi soldiers who attempted to surrender to a US drone. Hmmm... looks like that bullshit symbolism/military parade does not work after all!!!

Do you mean that some armies had parades, but their troops still didn't win? If so, that's irrelevant. You're the one who invented the idea that parades guarantee military victory. I merely explained why they happen despite not having any tangible benefit.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You asked a stupid question. I cannot be faulted for you inviting Duh moments.

You responded to it as if it wasn't a question. Duh.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Make them do it privately, no more need for security. The state cannot be expected to pay for the extravagance of a private citizen.

I assume the countries that still have royalty consider them something more than mere private citizens. Can't say for sure tho, since I've never lived in a country with royalty.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Then tell them to fuck off and make them pay for their own expenses. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. If the royals wanted privacy, they would have gotten it.

I doubt it. People would have shown up anyway.

[Opressoliber]

	Originally Posted by blueback To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Nasty, brutish and short is a PERCEPTION. Everyone in the world PERCEIVES their life to be nasty (why are bad things always happening to ME?) brutish (nice guys always finish last) and short (gee, I really wish I could live a little bit longer).

This is not the case:you are projecting your own faults upon other people. Not all perceptions are created equal, as evidenced by the pettyness of the complaints you highlights demonstrate this amply.

A far more stressful complaint would be something like "I don't think I will live past the age of 27".

	You're interpreting psychology incorrectly. When it doesn't take much of your time or resources to provide for your basic needs (food, etc) you tend to spend A LOT of time doing things for abstract reasons...

One does not judge the grandeur of a symbol by %.
A person attending a royal marriage in England and one in Thailand will not take into account the relative wealth of the country in judging the wedding...only the finished product counts. On a global scale, the costs incurred do not matter.

Furthermore, the disparity of wealth between two groups (countries,individuals,etc ) may be great,but it may not make much of a difference in terms of lifestyle (what is the difference between the lifestyle of someone earning 300 millions a year or 500 million?).

For example: The House of Windsor is NOT the wealthiest of the royal families. The House of Saud actually is wealthier, but (at least on the surface) has spent much less of public funds on their own royal wedding then the House of Windsor + UK government.

As wealth increase,the % does not increase as well (however that "percentage" is calculated).

	Exactly. That's why there's no symbolism at training camp.

Way it should be everywhere (especially in the military). Props to you for figuring that one out.
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	It does help, actually. Self-discipline and esprit de corps, once developed, are universally applicable.

You are getting yelled at and you'll be sure to hear from your superiors if you screw up too much. Fucked up version you have of self dicipline when you have a guy breathing down your neck to see if you're doing your shit correctly.
What's the obesity rate in the US military again?
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	It doesn't matter how you build them up, they always work. You'd know that if you had any military experience.

Military experience does not trump elementary logic and common sense.
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You can beat anyone with a stick, and he'll do drill for 6 hours straight, but that doesn't mean he'll fight for you.

	Do you mean that some armies had parades, but their troops still didn't win? If so, that's irrelevant. You're the one who invented the idea that parades guarantee military victory.I merely explained why they happen despite not having any tangible benefit.

Another stupid question, not only are you an expert in creating duh moments, you are also king of asking stupid questions.
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I never said anything about guaranteeing military victory... Where did I say victory in my post?

You implied that a participant in a military parade equates a man showing up for war.

It is not the case,both Iraqi and Russian armies showed severe morale problems in spite of arguably good ceremony drill as well as severe desertion rate. At best, military drill demonstrates the ability of NCOs to threaten their subordinates in the short term and in peacetime.

At worse, a severe lack of critical thinking skills among the officer corps.

	You responded to it as if it wasn't a question. Duh.

Hey, you're asking stupid questions, as I said stop faulting me for your own idiocy.
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	I doubt it. People would have shown up anyway.

People are afraid of lawsuits. If people show up, you are not trying hard enough.

[blueback]

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This is not the case:you are projecting your own faults upon other people.

In a competition between my opinion, and your opinion, I'm gonna go with my opinion.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Not all perceptions are created equal, as evidenced by the pettyness of the complaints you highlights demonstrate this amply.

That doesn't make any sense.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	One does not judge the grandeur of a symbol by %.

Well, you were asserting earlier that symbolism is worthless, so according to your theory no amount of symbolism is grand anyway.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A person attending a royal marriage in England and one in Thailand will not take into account the relative wealth of the country in judging the wedding...only the finished product counts. On a global scale, the costs incurred do not matter.

Yes they will. Also, that's totally irrelevant.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As wealth increase,the % does not increase as well (however that "percentage" is calculated).

Really? Thanks.

Also, you totally forgot how percentages work AGAIN! Maybe you should go look them up. This is the second time you've demonstrated that you don't understand an elementary mathematical idea well enough to use it in a discussion. The point was that the percentage remained the same, and as an entity became wealthier the real amount that percentage represented increased...because the percentage remained the same.

Duh.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Way it should be everywhere (especially in the military).

I disagree...and it looks like the rest of the world does too.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You are getting yelled at and you'll be sure to hear from your superiors if you screw up too much. Fucked up version you have of self dicipline when you have a guy breathing down your neck to see if you're doing your shit correctly.

How do you think self-discipline is increased? It's not like people absorb it via osmosis.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What's the obesity rate in the US military again? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

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Lower than the overall population.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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LOL, I've been reading his real estate books; he's sharp. He also has this to say: "In contrast, alcohol and drug use by sailors and airmen have declined steadily since 1980. That’s because the leaders of those services are more responsible and have higher quality personnel than the Army and Marines."

So, you know, my service is doing okay according to John T Reed. BTW, that's such a weird source to cite...particularly since it's the ONLY source you cited (making it like 50% of all the sources you've ever cited).

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Military experience does not trump elementary logic and common sense. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LOL, okay, keep telling yourself that. Repeating it over and over again won't suddenly make it right. But your gut tells you what's truthie, and that's got to count for everything, right?

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You can beat anyone with a stick, and he'll do drill for 6 hours straight, but that doesn't mean he'll fight for you.

No one in the US military gets beat with a stick. Maybe that's why the Russian and Iraqi armies had some problems.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You implied that a participant in a military parade equates a man showing up for war.

I STATED that it indicates such. I didn't imply anything, particularly not that straw man you want to rebut.

	Originally Posted by Opressoliber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	People are afraid of lawsuits. If people show up, you are not trying hard enough.

LOL, so...lets see if I got this straight...your idea for how to keep spectators and terrorists away from a royal wedding is to threaten to sue everyone? That's awesome.