[Zombicide]

No. "Why"? Does it look like this pretty little fillet should get in the kitchen and make us a sandich and fetchya beer and prance about the posies in a pretty pink dress ... outside of comedy?


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There damn near is no gender for us to adhere to, everyone is somewhat of an hermaphrodite, some more than others.

[Raskolnikov]

	Originally Posted by Zombicide
	everyone is somewhat of an hermaphrodite, some more than others.

That's a misnomer. Hermaphrodite refers to ambiguous genitalia, not gender ambiguity.

[Fenrisulfr]

	Originally Posted by Raskolnikov To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Regarding the whole feminist/gender roles thing, I'm beginning to think the feminist movement, while originally a legitimate cause, has turned into a big capitalist conspiracy.

That is the radical feminism, and while they are quite small they are also quite vocal and tend to get the lime light. Most of the garbage they spew out can easily be recognized with that it basically is the same stupidity other radical or supremacist groups uses. If you look at other feminist groups, you might find that their opinions are quite sensible; they just focus on inequalities that negatively affects women.

How is it that 50 years ago, a single man with a high school education could easily afford a house, a car and support a family of 6, while now it's all but impossible to have even a small family without two incomes. Western society is built upon ideals of consumerism and ever growing spending. If we were to stop, the economy would collapse. So what better way to increase profits than to double the output and double the spending?

It was the end of the colonial era for Europe, and the US had an intact industry. Might have something to do with it
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	Originally Posted by Zombicide To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No. "Why"? Does it look like this pretty little fillet should get in the kitchen and make us a sandich and fetchya beer and prance about the posies in a pretty pink dress ... outside of comedy?

Yes, and I wouldn't even be surprised.

	There damn near is no gender for us to adhere to, everyone is somewhat of an hermaphrodite, some more than others.

If one is secure and grounded in oneself, why would one need a role to adhere to?

[Japonica]

I genuinely don't have a big issue with gender roles. Arguably, the collapse of gender roles has contributed to North America's economic downfall just by shear numbers entering the workforce, but I'm not prepared to get into that argument, one that also has a lot of holes.

Personally, I am seeing a trend of ridiculed women who enjoy what I like to call "feminine lifestyles" such as knowing how to keep a house, cook, value chastity and consider marriage an option. Feminists love to label any women with these ideologies as "repressed" or "religious zealots". Excuse me? You mean keeping a place clean, knowing how to fry a damn egg, not fucking around and value a tradition which basis is loyalty, makes a woman a repressed religious zealot?

I could seriously go on for hours about how corrupt feminism is and how it has alienated both genders. From what use to be a group with validity, is now a group that narrows down a "modern woman" to whether or not she is pro-choice. Feminists have barged their ways into male-dominated industries such as construction sites then bitch about slander and harassment. They've turned a lot of men into whimps, yet, haven't provided a large percentage of the gender with domestic skills. Frankly, it's a shit-storm.

I believe North American feminism to be very archaic. It's had its course, it's over with. In Middle Eastern countries and African countries, it is desperately needed. Germaine Greers and those alike are an embarrassment to women, but unfortunately, isn't the only radical whom exists. I don't accept chauvinism on any level, but I also logically know that men have ruled the world since day 1, and to ask the world to shift gears is a little like asking for world peace.

[Zombicide]

	Originally Posted by Raskolnikov To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That's a misnomer. Hermaphrodite refers to ambiguous genitalia, not gender ambiguity.

Immediate definition that came up

"A person or animal having both male and female sex organs or other sexual characteristics, either abnormally or (in the case of some organisms) as the natural condition"

[Japonica]

Originally Posted by SacrificialLove To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The danger I see in deviating from the natural norm of mom breastfeeding are all of the benefits of nursing that are not tied to nutrition and immunological benefits. Nursing a baby goes beyond giving the baby food; it provides unparalleled emotional comfort, stemming from the prolonged skin-to-skin contact that Baby receives. Breastfeeding is also important for optimal/proper formation of the dental palate and teeth alignment. Human milk balances and maintains gut/intestinal health, etc. Yes, we have freed mothers to be more like men by not having the same kind of responsibility to her babies as mothers have had, historically speaking. Changing that basic gender role/expectation has not been beneficial to society, in my opinion.

I do agree with you on the point that society has allowed mothers to vacate their maternal positions to an extent. If you can't stand the stress of a child, don't have one—it's very simple.

However, I get pretty red about the whole breastfeeding thing. If a mother is eating cake and soda, and basically getting zero nutrition into her body ... what the hell is so special about her breast milk? Nothing. Exactly.

My mother never got breast milk. Many woman don't. This was in the 1980s and 1990s and it seemed to be the beginning of a breast feeding Nazi movement. Some of the suggestions my mother received from avid breastfeeding supporters were anywhere from absurd to dangerous (i.e. only giving the kid water until the milk comes in). Sophist it to say, my brother had goat's milk and I had soy milk (I'm lactose intolerant), and guess what? Both of us were a lot healthier than my textbook cousins who picked up every damn ears, throat and nose infection out there as infants. So, there goes the whole immunity theory.

As well, not suckling on a breast as infants, didn't turn either one of us into psychopaths (well ... INTJ). It's the human interaction that is good for the baby, not the literal suckling. What women shouldn't do is hand their kid a bottle and set them in a corner alone. It's simple the human interaction such as holding them when they are being fed that is important.

[sircockburn]

Originally Posted by Zombicide To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

No. "Why"? Does it look like this pretty little fillet should get in the kitchen and make us a sandich and fetchya beer and prance about the posies in a pretty pink dress ... outside of comedy? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. There damn near is no gender for us to adhere to, everyone is somewhat of an hermaphrodite, some more than others.

I can easily picture him donning a pink apron...he looks like one of those "inner jelly" mama boys.

*prays to god he's not reading this and able to track down IP addresses*
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[Zombicide]

	Originally Posted by Fenrisulfr To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If one is secure and grounded in oneself, why would one need a role to adhere to?

Yea, that's more or less my point. Actually, that picture is of a biological female.

---------- Post added 06-17-2011 at 01:47 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by sircockburn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I can easily picture him donning a pink apron...he looks like one of those "inner jelly" mama boys. *prays to god he's not reading this and able to track down IP addresses* To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

*Aerosmith reversal song "Lady looks like a dude" starts playing*

There's whole mammal species with the gender roles reverse
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evolution could have more prevalently taken that route instead.

[Persona]

	Originally Posted by Zombicide To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yea, that's more or less my point. Actually, that picture is of a biological female.

Just 'cause he has a vagina doesn't mean he's biologically female. That man has more testosterone than estrogen in his body, and that's relevant too. You could say he's genetically female, maybe, but I doubt you have sampled his DNA.

[CyanideSoda]

Gender roles, like the definition of good and evil, are purely social constructs.

In ancient times, if a parent couldn't afford another kid they'd dump it in the forest/desert and be done. A little later Europe would send colonists who would happily proceed to decimate every indigenous population. A hundred years ago people found slavery normal. These behaviors are no longer acceptable by social norms. Same goes for gender roles. If technology and machines have no longer need for distinction based on strength then it really doesn't matter who presses the button to operate the factory.

It seems a waste to deny people their natural tendencies and aptitudes based on hanging bits of flesh. A man might be really happy working as kindergarten teacher or a nurse in a childrens' clinic, cooking and taking care of the home. And a woman might be a great CEO, an aggressive sportswoman and might never even want to think about family. Why force them to comply with archaic formulas?

People fixated on gender roles seem to do so because they feel powerless and adrift and having a lack of confidence in their personalities, thus they need to fill their insecurity with some fantasy of domestic felicity that never was. Gender roles in the 50s or whatever did not make one happy. Their relationship to people did so. If they treated others shittily they would be in turn treated shittily no matter if they lived in the 1050s, 1950s or 2050s.

Also, people bashing feminism should really look it up and stop confusing it with radicals, feminazis and plain old crazy women. Feminism is about equal rights to work, education etc. I am particularly confused by women dissing feminism but happy with the side benefits: don't like equal rights? you are welcome to take the first flight to some crappy middle east country where you'll be just a possession and you'll have all the gender inequality and traditionalism you like and leave the rest of us alone.

[pironiro]

Originally Posted by CyanideSoda To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Gender roles, like the definition of good and evil, are purely social constructs. In ancient times, if a parent couldn't afford another kid they'd dump it in the forest/desert and be done. A little later Europe would send colonists who would happily proceed to decimate every indigenous population. A hundred years ago people found slavery normal. These behaviors are no longer acceptable by social norms. Same goes for gender roles. If technology and machines have no longer need for distinction based on strength then it really doesn't matter who presses the button to operate the factory. It seems a waste to deny people their natural tendencies and aptitudes based on hanging bits of flesh. A man might be really happy working as kindergarten teacher or a nurse in a childrens' clinic, cooking and taking care of the home. And a woman might be a great CEO, an aggressive sportswoman and might never even want to think about family. Why force them to comply with archaic formulas? People fixated on gender roles seem to do so because they feel powerless and adrift and having a lack of confidence in their personalities, thus they need to fill their insecurity with some fantasy of domestic felicity that never was. Gender roles in the 50s or whatever did not make one happy. Their relationship to people did so. If they treated others shittily they would be in turn treated shittily no matter if they lived in the 1050s, 1950s or 2050s. Also, people bashing feminism should really look it up and stop confusing it with radicals, feminazis and plain old crazy women. Feminism is about equal rights to work, education etc. I am particularly confused by women dissing feminism but happy with the side benefits: don't like equal rights? you are welcome to take the first flight to some crappy middle east country where you'll be just a possession and you'll have all the gender inequality and traditionalism you like and leave the rest of us alone.

I love this post, your marxist professors must be proud. I love how you can claim to know what made people happy decades ago, as well as what drives people to gender roles. The cherry on top was the mention of evil european colonizers, nicely done.

But I do have one issue. Your bigoted comment about "crappy middle eastern country" was really uncalled for. Don't you know that all cultures are equal(like men and women are), they are just different?

[Raskolnikov]

	Originally Posted by pironiro
	But I do have one issue. Your bigoted comment about "crappy middle eastern country" was really uncalled for. Don't you know that all cultures are equal(like men and women are), they are just different?

There's something a bit unsettling about this. Are you trying to suggest that the contrast between culture in Canada and Afghanistan (for example) is the similar in nature to that between men and women?

Equality refers to rights, not inherent ability, in which case your comparison is as ignorant as it gets.

[catzmeow]

	Originally Posted by Japonica To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I genuinely don't have a big issue with gender roles. Arguably, the collapse of gender roles has contributed to North America's economic downfall just by shear numbers entering the workforce, but I'm not prepared to get into that argument, one that also has a lot of holes.

Fail. Increased earning by two income families have contributed to economic growth through increased spending power by families. You didn't see a lot of families back in the 70s, when I was growing up, with boats, luxury cars, and big houses, but you do now amongst two income families.

[Raskolnikov]

	Originally Posted by catzmeow To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Fail. Increased earning by two income families have contributed to economic growth through increased spending power by families. You didn't see a lot of families back in the 70s, when I was growing up, with boats, luxury cars, and big houses, but you do now amongst two income families.

Actually the real (inflation adjusted) median yearly household income since 1970 has only gone up by about $8,000. GDP growth isn't necessarily tied to median income growth.

[CyanideSoda]

	Originally Posted by pironiro To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I love this post, your marxist professors must be proud. I love how you can claim to know what made people happy decades ago, as well as what drives people to gender roles. The cherry on top was the mention of evil european colonizers, nicely done.

Happy? Evil? It was a fact they did that. Go figure, I read it in a book! I didn't put smiley faces on it or judge it, they just did what their society dictated was proper. Which has now changed.

	Originally Posted by pironiro To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But I do have one issue. Your bigoted comment about "crappy middle eastern country" was really uncalled for. Don't you know that all cultures are equal(like men and women are), they are just different?

Yes, crappy when it comes to women's issues because that is what we are discussing. I've actually been to a middle east country--two of them--and I've seen the conditions women live in. These countries might be beautiful in history, landscapes etc but they suck hard when it comes to gender equality, so yes, crappy they are in that regard, if it wasn't clear.

[Japonica]

	Originally Posted by catzmeow To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Fail. Increased earning by two income families have contributed to economic growth through increased spending power by families. You didn't see a lot of families back in the 70s, when I was growing up, with boats, luxury cars, and big houses, but you do now amongst two income families.

It's called credit. It has nothing to do with actual cold hard cash. When I see people with luxury items, I think they're in massive debt—not wealthy.

[MyotisLucifugus]

Only on an INTJ forum would people start fighting over Buck Angel's DNA.

[Zombicide]

Clarification of initial post on the thread now that I'm more awake: I meant fille, also, "No" was to the question of whether gender roles are a benefit or no to the overall idea of gender roles. Probably didn't need to clarify any of that but just in case.

---------- Post added 06-17-2011 at 01:04 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Persona To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You could say he's genetically female, maybe, but I doubt you have sampled his DNA.

I have sampled his DNA actually, I've sampled everyone's DNA. So, yep, confirmed, she is a hideous girl ... and by others' aesthetic standards, possibly a beautiful man person.

[blackLieutenant]

	Originally Posted by nacht To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	"What pronouns do you prefer" tends to work.

You don't choose your gender, race etc... you just born with it until you die.

	Which means absolutely nothing when it comes to gender.

How can someone born without a dick can be a male ?

	Well, frustration is involved, but that isn't the definition of the condition. "Transgender" is a condition, and in the US is not generally thought of as its own gender (this is not universally true, naturally, India and Thailand both have a "third gender" concept). That said, what gender they are is not generally the same as the sex they were born with.

Transgenderism is BS. Male, Female, Hermaphrodite are the only genders Nature gave us.

	Originally Posted by firebee To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And if you lost that cock in a tragic swimming pool drain accident, I assume you'd resign yourself to learning the art of the sandwich and of the blowjob?

I'd be a mutilated male. Its not the fact that "you have" a cock that is important but that you "were born" with it.

	Originally Posted by Raskolnikov To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No, that's sex. Gender is precisely what's in in your head, and sometimes things aren't so binary in relation to your mind. Sometimes wires get crossed and the mind doesn't match the body.

A male whatever is in his head will be forever a male. His gender is male til death.

	Originally Posted by Zombicide To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No. "Why"? Does it look like this pretty little fillet should get in the kitchen and make us a sandich and fetchya beer and prance about the posies in a pretty pink dress ... outside of comedy?

If I would paint myself like a dolphin, would it be enough for me to swim with my dolphin brothers ? No.
No wonder why transgerderism was considered a mentall illness til 2009 (in France).

	There damn near is no gender for us to adhere to,

Gender roles are necessary for kids and future generations.

	everyone is somewhat of an hermaphrodite, some more than others.

No, most humans are born male or female.

	Originally Posted by catzmeow To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Fail. Increased earning by two income families have contributed to economic growth through increased spending power by families. You didn't see a lot of families back in the 70s, when I was growing up, with boats, luxury cars, and big houses, but you do now amongst two income families.

Most people dont have boats, luxury cars and big houses. You're idealizing our society. The destruction of gender roles opened the jobs to half of the population. There's no better way to ruin a society, from an economic POV. And if we add to this globalization, and the increase of technological advancement (less jobs), we are pretty fucked up.

Now feminists, enjoy people starving in the streets and kitchen soups.

[nacht]

	Originally Posted by blackLieutenant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You don't choose your gender, race etc... you just born with it until you die.

Correct, all evidence leans toward that
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.

	How can someone born without a dick can be a male ?

By having a brain that registers as male.

	Transgenderism is BS. Male, Female, Hermaphrodite are the only genders Nature gave us.

Out of curiosity, how many different variations of intersex do you think there are and what is their chromosomal makeup?

[blackLieutenant]

	Originally Posted by nacht To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Correct, all evidence leans toward that To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. .

I already expressed myself in an other thread on this ("brain gender etc..")
My conclusion was that even if their brains "registered" them as male (when born female or vice versa), it was not a reason to mutilate your body and then proclaim that you belong to another gender. You should just accept your real body and do what you want in your everyday life.

	By having a brain that registers as male.

There may have some hormons misfunctioning, even if your brain would register you as (for example) male, you are still born physically born female, and no chirurgy in the world will ever change that. No fake latex dong, or milk sperm will ever change your real gender.

And for unknown reasons, most transgender people are Male to Female, it's very rare to see a female to male person. Maybe society glorify and glamorize women lifestyle a bit too much.

	Out of curiosity, how many different variations of intersex do you think there are and what is their chromosomal makeup?

Even if some genders can me mixed up a bit physically and emotionally, there are still only 3 genders in this world that humans are born with : male, female or hermaphrodite. Which is logic. There are no 4, 5 or 6 genders.

[Nemesis]

I promised myself long ago that I would never bother posting in gender threads ever again. The concept of sex being a biological concept and gender being a social one, with both being fluid but concurrent (on average) is just too much for some. Here's some simple points...

1) Sex is a biological concept. That means, when someone is speaking about sex, they are referring to things like genitals, hormonal profiles, genetics, and all that. This does not mean that fitting one sex-typical category at one level translates to another. Here's what I mean. The genitals develop in sex-typical ways at a certain point in prenatal development, but the brain develops in sex-typical ways during a completely different point. Yes, both processes are largely hormonal... BUT, different levels of hormones during different developmental windows can produce opposing sex-typical development. That is, one can have a set of twig and berries, but the brain can develop in a female-typical way. Looking at biological sex on only one level (chromasomal for instance) paints too limited of a picture. It does not capture the gestalt of what biological sex actually is. I'll return to this in a bit...

2) Gender is a social concept. Gender is a place-holder word for all of the attitudes, roles, and concepts that surround sex on the level of society and culture. As such, the concept of gender is open to influence from transmission of another culture's set of attitudes, or from new conceptions of gender from within a given social entity. Gender is, therefore, fluid. The abundance of third-gender categories across the globe are a great example of this (ie. Berdaches of the Native Americans, Hijra in India, the Fa'afafine in Samoa, the Sworn-Virgins around the Balkans, and many many more).

3) Sex and gender often overlap. People tend to show patterns of behaviour that are concurrent to their biological sex. When you look at behaviour generated by sex-typical brains, you see patterns that are often consistent with gender-typical norms.

4) But, not always. As mentioned above, one can appear to be male, but have a feminized brain. The pattern of behaviour by that manly looking person will often be coded as feminine. Hence, why some people appear to be male or female, yet identify themselves otherwise.

5) Current research on prenatal neurodevelopment is showing more and more that the developmental windows that are associated with generating sex-typical brains are particularly plastic and open to many influences. Further, there are several windows. This opens up the possibility that sex-typical brain development operates on more of a scale than previously thought. More importantly, it is actually much more frequent than one would generally assume. This has also been shown across a huge number of species (from humans to rats, to bugs)

I don't pretend to know if gender roles are valuable, and I don't really care. It's not something I like to slap value judgments on. What does not sit right with me, though, is the argument that people who act in a way that is "opposite" to their genitals are somehow ignoring "biology". The biological picture of sex and gender is much more fluid than people assume.

---------- Post added 06-17-2011 at 04:39 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by blackLieutenant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There may have some hormons misfunctioning,

Actually, the hormonal alterations that accompany shifts in sex-typical brain are not linked to negative outcomes. The mental illnesses that sometimes crop up in the trans- community are better accounted for by things like social stigma as there is a large decrease of mental illness among trans- individuals who live in tolerant social settings. It's unlikely that it indicates any kind of "malfunctioning"... it's only variation.

*runs away from thread as fast as is humanly possible... and never looks back*

[deckard]

Yeah, if the anomalies were the norm, gender might change but even the hair bands of the 80's were still (for the most part) interested in attracting women. And women were into it. Huh, go figure. The gay guys are on to something. I wish I had more women in my life.

Went to a girl/woman's house I just met. Gay guy friend comes over and she dodes (sp?) over him while bleaching his hair. Probably could have got laid too, with no strings because he's gay... clever bunch... these queer fellows.

[Persona]

Originally Posted by deckard To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Yeah, if the anomalies were the norm, gender might change but even the hair bands of the 80's were still (for the most part) interested in attracting women. And women were into it. Huh, go figure. The gay guys are on to something. I wish I had more women in my life. Went to a girl/woman's house I just met. Gay guy friend comes over and she dodes (sp?) over him while bleaching his hair. Probably could have got laid too, with no strings because he's gay... clever bunch... these queer fellows.

I just remembered
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where they found over 50 separate genes that are activated by one sex hormone or the other exclusively in the brain before gonadal differentiation. So it stands to reason that there would be a huge array of possible variance in sexual behaviour, orientation and identity - both from genetic and a pre-natal environment standpoints.

In other words... just because they're gay doesn't mean they're flaming. Just because she's a tomboy lesbian doesn't mean she's FtM transgendered, but vice versa - and it could be both. And so on.

[firebee]

	Originally Posted by blackLieutenant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And for unknown reasons, most transgender people are Male to Female, it's very rare to see a female to male person. Maybe society glorify and glamorize women lifestyle a bit too much.

Hi.

I am presently wearing precisely what I wore to work today, minus my name badge (because I just noticed it, realized that I am a pathetic geek, and took it off). The only female articles of clothing that I am wearing are my boots (which are technically women's and have some feminizing features that can only be discerned by comparison to the men's model from that company) and my bra. This is not worthy of any particular comment, although I assume folks at my company would not be surprised at all if I said I was bi. If my opposite number in the genderqueer department made the equivalent fashion choice, he would probably have a fairly hard time just getting to work in peace.

One could speculate as to why, but defectors from male masculinity are treated much more harshly than defectors from female femininity. This probably does a lot to explain why transmasculine people don't transition quite so much, because folks with a minor degree of gender variance can just walk to the other side of the store when they shop for clothes and continue happily on with their lives -- likewise, it probably partly explains why you haven't heard of transmen so much despite their existing quite nicely, thank you very much, because it isn't quite as appealing for sniggering assholes to treat them like a circus sideshow.

You might want to consider that you don't understand gender variance nearly as well as you think you do.