[Monte314]

I've taught both "college algebra" and Calculus many times. My personal opinion is that college algebra is the more difficult of the two, because it is less systematic.

Calculus is a unified theory; topics can always be traced back to one or two fundamental ideas. Everything can be seen to flow consistently and (somewhat) naturally from first principles. In short, it hangs together as a system.

The monstrosity we call "college algebra" is not a theory at all. It is an eclectic pile of disconnected topics created to give students one last chance to fill in the gaps in their mathematical background before studying something real. Because it isn't systematic, it is more difficult to master.

[sircockburn]

Easy. There's a very hazy/limited job market for pure math and science majors (well, unless you're getting into medicine) - compared to accounting, pre-law, computer science, education etc.

While math and science degrees can certainly be useful for many jobs, they're not going to be REQUIREMENTS as an accounting degree for an accounting job might, and they're not even going to be understood as advantages by employers that sh/could see them that way.

In the few jobs open to such majors, such as scientific research or becoming a professor, it can be so unstable and competitive, and usually a Bachelors' degree isn't enough. You need a Ph.D in order for any of those degrees to serve any purpose. So it's basically signing up for a 10+ year commitment of PAYING for classes without being able to guarantee a ROI.

Uncertainty can be expensive.

I would've majored in math (and also philosophy!) had it not been for the lack of practicality. I don't have a magical money tree in my backyard.

[Latro]

Originally Posted by Urshulgi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I understood complex math when it was applied to chemistry, because it actually meant something to me. The real situations are the only thing that keeps me interested in the subject at all. I passed college algebra easily enough to postulate that I could have gone on to Calculus and passed that as well, but I took college algebra when I was 27 years old, and I had the mental discipline to fight through the boredom. When I first took algebra in 8th grade, I didn't have that discipline. Math has to be made interesting. letters and numbers arranged on a board just don't do it for most kids.

OK, fine, with something like algebra you might be able to explain the math in an applied context before having explained it in an abstract setting, or even without explaining it in an abstract setting later. Now take that a step farther. Move onto calculus, and try to explain calculus to a student for the first time in a physics class. They'll be overwhelmed; physics has both the math and the problem-solving components, both of which are quite difficult. It is made tremendously easier if the pertinent math is already simple for the student; for example, if the introductory mechanics student has already seen derivatives, and doesn't bat an eye when the professor starts taking derivatives or antiderivatives to, for example, compute forces or the result of those forces. Step it up a little further past that, onto something like mathematical modeling of a larger physical problem, and it gets even worse.

If the student, then, can get used to the abstract setting early, and get comfortable with it, and willing to cooperate with it (knowing that there are applications, and being exposed to some from time to time), it is to their benefit in the long run.

Originally Posted by Monte314 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I've taught both "college algebra" and Calculus many times. My personal opinion is that college algebra is the more difficult of the two, because it is less systematic. Calculus is a unified theory; topics can always be traced back to one or two fundamental ideas. Everything can be seen to flow consistently and (somewhat) naturally from first principles. In short, it hangs together as a system. The monstrosity we call "college algebra" is not a theory at all. It is an eclectic pile of disconnected topics created to give students one last chance to fill in the gaps in their mathematical background before studying something real. Because it isn't systematic, it is more difficult to master.

I agree. (Can just a one liner like this be part of a post that is otherwise OK?)

[Monte314]

Originally Posted by sircockburn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Easy. There's a very hazy/limited job market for pure math and science majors (well, unless you're getting into medicine) - compared to accounting, pre-law, computer science, education etc. While math and science degrees can certainly be useful for many jobs, they're not going to be REQUIREMENTS as an accounting degree for an accounting job might, and they're not even going to be understood as advantages by employers that sh/could see them that way. In the few jobs open to such majors, such as scientific research or becoming a professor, it can be so unstable and competitive, and usually a Bachelors' degree isn't enough. You need a Ph.D in order for any of those degrees to serve any purpose. So it's basically signing up for a 10+ year commitment of PAYING for classes without being able to guarantee a ROI. Uncertainty can be expensive. I would've majored in math (and also philosophy!) had it not been for the lack of practicality. I don't have a magical money tree in my backyard.

I disagree with just about all of the above.

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[Megalomania]

Just curious, what criteria did they use to make that judgment? I can't see how historian is one of the top jobs...It is extremely difficult to make a living as a historian from what I have read. I think it takes into the account the fact that you already possess the job, so how employable a particular field is doesn't factor into the equation.

[Imagineering]

Math and Science is hard and demoralizing. I woudln't wish this evil upon anyone else. You feel demoralized after getting a 20 on your exam.

[Megalomania]

	Originally Posted by Imagineering To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Math and Science is hard and demoralizing. I woudln't wish this evil upon anyone else. You feel demoralized after getting a 20 on your exam.

You feel invulnerable after getting a 99.

[eagleseven]

	Originally Posted by Monte314 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I disagree with just about all of the above.

If you'll note, philosopher is also high on that list...but I can tell you that very few Philosophy PhDs are paid to be philosophers.

Being a good job does not necessarily make it an available job.

[sircockburn]

	Originally Posted by Monte314 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I disagree with just about all of the above.

What are the factors that determine the job quality?

For instance, being a supermodel would be a very excellent job, but it's never gonna happen for 99.99999etc% of us.

[Persona]

	Originally Posted by Imagineering To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Math and Science is hard and demoralizing. I woudln't wish this evil upon anyone else. You feel demoralized after getting a 20 on your exam.

	Originally Posted by Megalomania To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You feel invulnerable after getting a 99.

I can attest to the truth of both of these statements!

[Urshulgi]

Maybe Algebra needs to be introduced earlier, before kids are old enough to ask the question, "What the fuck do I need this for?"

[Imagineering]

	Originally Posted by Urshulgi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Maybe Algebra needs to be introduced earlier, before kids are old enough to ask the question, "What the fuck do I need this for?"

Math has been by far one of the most useful subjects in my life.

[Persona]

Perhaps maths could be taught in a more engaging manner rather than demonstrate + practice.

I don't even remember all the games my mom played with me but there was one that we played at my grandma's where we would roll dice with digits and operators and try to arrange them into true equations within a certain time limit. Success => chocolate chips. That alone probably made a huge impact on how I model math in my head. And why I enjoy it.

Also, make engineering summer camps mandatory or at least free. Seriously, playing with marbles and foam pipe insulation (and telnet I guess) made me so excited about it that I very nearly destroyed my life by trying to get an engineering degree.
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[Eratosthenes]

I am skeptical of the premise here. Where is the evidence that our country is facing a shortage of math and science majors?

I'm about to graduate with twin degrees in math and physics - and where are the jobs? Engineering and finance, mostly, and there's no shortage in either of those professions. If I wanted to do research, I would have to spend another 4-6 years in school working on a phD, at which point my options would again be either going into industry, or facing a 50:1 ratio of applicants to positions in academia.

[Analyze]

I don't really want someone who can't get As in a math or science course being a scientist or mathematician in my country.

There is a large number of people who are more than capable of taking on the two subjects, but they choose not to. No offense to math majors as I understand your general contributions to physics, but you aren't really a priority in my mind to make a country successful.

I want to see good Science, Business, and political science majors. I believe they make a country "strong".

NOTABLE BIASES- Science major who sees that most people do poorly in math because they don't pay attention. Doesn't think art majors need a degree. I will buy your art if I like it not because you have a piece of paper.

[Monte314]

I was talking with the Chairman of one of the Computer Science Department at Florida Tech yesterday. He told me that they interview every student who transfers out of the major into another area. The great majority of them are Freshman who say they are switching because "CS is too much work".

I don't know how you solve their "problem"... build more prisons?

[Megalomania]

	Originally Posted by Monte314 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I was talking with the Chairman of one of the Computer Science Department at Florida Tech yesterday. He told me that they interview every student who transfers out of the major into another area. The great majority of them are Freshman who say they are switching because "CS is too much work". I don't know how you solve their "problem"... build more prisons?

You could probably take that two ways....Perhaps they meant that it was too difficult for them and they were overwhelmed.

[Monte314]

Maybe... but's it's more satisfying to attribute their FAILURE to moral decrepitude, such as irremediable sloth, utter irresponsibility, or total lardbutt-hood.

If you allow layabouts and wastrels to wrap themselves in the arrogated victimhood of stupidity, soon you'll be overrun with them.

In the long run, shock collars are cheaper and more effective.

[plotthickens]

I have a learning disability which makes it nearly impossible for me to deal with non-conrete things like numbers. However, I have an amazing grasp of multi-spatial dynamics. Failed Algebra miserably (suicide attempt), but aced Geometry without bothering to study. I forced my doc to diagnose my problem in the last year of college, when math had already become a huge PITA. Turns out that there were existing courses for people like me that could have helped. :eyeroll:

I, like everyone, cannot do everything. To expect everyone to be able to do all coursework is unreasonable. Early diagnosis and tracking may help people to not hate math (or English, or History, or whatever). We have enough people in the world now that we may be able to devote time and effort to helping enhance student's weak spots, instead of labelling them all morally decrepit.

[Monte314]

plotthickens is quite right: only Dogs can do everything, and we are nothing if not truly sensitive to the feelings of those less valuable than ourselves.

So, let's suppose that PT, knowing herself (as every responsible adult ought), nonetheless chooses to go to college and MAJOR IN MATHEMATICS.

She would then fall into Category Two (utterly irresponsible)... and it's shock collar time!

(BTW: I run a math clinic for kids that is free and open to the community; you will find me there every time the doors are open. Come on in, and I'll put my money where your mouth is.)

[benr3600]

My initial intuition (didn't read the thread)? Same reason our country is FTL in both studies, at the primary/secondary school level. Poor preparation =high likelihood of failing out of college, or too much intimidation to try it. TBH, I wouldn't mind majoring in physical or applied sciences, if it weren't for the fact that I royally FUBARed my high school math education, and put myself at a huge disadvantage when it comes to math. Could I major in math or hard sciences? Possibly. Did I prevent myself from likely doing either? Yes. I blame myself as much as the school system, but the truth is our school system sucks for both disciplines.

[shytiger]

Originally Posted by Eratosthenes To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I am skeptical of the premise here. Where is the evidence that our country is facing a shortage of math and science majors? I'm about to graduate with twin degrees in math and physics - and where are the jobs? Engineering and finance, mostly, and there's no shortage in either of those professions. If I wanted to do research, I would have to spend another 4-6 years in school working on a phD, at which point my options would again be either going into industry, or facing a 50:1 ratio of applicants to positions in academia.

It's hard to find a job with the title "mathematician" or "physicist". I work at a company populated almost entirely by mathematicians and none of us have that title. A lot of those jobs have titles like "programmer" or "analyst".

Let's also note that there are fewer jobs for people with math and science degrees because there are fewer people with those degrees. If somebody is looking for a math major, they'll have a much harder time finding one than finding a CS major.

---------- Post added 04-12-2011 at 02:15 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by AnotherPersona To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Perhaps maths could be taught in a more engaging manner rather than demonstrate + practice.

After slogging my way through teaching Precalculus this semester, I have to agree. Mathematics is taught like grammar instead of like composition. We teach procedure after procedure, rule after rule, without really giving students a sense of what mathematics is really about or why it's worthwhile. It's not worthwhile knowing the what of all those little rules. It's worthwhile knowing the why. But because students "have" to know all these little rules, teachers are expected to cram all the material down their throats and move them along in the system. If, instead, students were expected to do something original with mathematics to the detriment of learning all the little theorems and procedures, they might have a better long-term outcome.

[TheNinjaStef]

	Originally Posted by Urshulgi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Maybe Algebra needs to be introduced earlier, before kids are old enough to ask the question, "What the fuck do I need this for?"

I can speak on this issue from the perspective of my school.
When I was in lower grades we didn't learn anything of algebra until 8th grade when the "smart kids" had the opportunity to take Pre-Algebra with an INSANE teacher who didn't know what she was teaching. If we had high enough grades (about a 98) we could take Algebra I as freshmen.... there were only two other freshmen in my Algebra class (I came out with a 100, btw).
Now pre-algebra is mandatory for all 7th graders and Algebra I is an option for those who pass. Eh, at least it's some sort of improvement, although much progress is needed.

We also weren't allowed to take Physics until we were seniors. Luckily, they changed that policy last year and I was able to take it as a junior.... It's kind of funny when you take physics before trigonometry because you basically learn in reverse!

Maybe my school is just special, but when I went to orientation over half of the attendees were majoring in a math or science, specifically engineering and veterinary medicine. Sure, you can't expect everyone to stick to their majors, but I doubt more that 1/4 will change their mind to something totally out of that realm. In comparison, there were three of us who declared Anthropology as a major.

[vanizorc]

	Originally Posted by themuzicman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Women aren't as strong at math as men are. Education is presently catering to girls and young women, at the expense of the education of boys.

First of all, the relative under-performance of women in math/science is NOT universal. In countries with greater indexes of gender equality (measured by other external factors such as socio-economic parity), women's/girl's math performance are either on par, on even exceeds men's/boy's math achievement (as measured by grades and standardized tests). Even the age-old excuse of men's "greater variance" in mathematical ability does not hold -- in nations of greater general gender equity, women show just as much of a variance in mathematical/spatial abilities. (There was a recent cross-sectional study done on this very topic; I forgot the name of the journal, but look it up yourself.)

Secondly, your claim that the Western education system is "catering to girls and women" is not as straight-forward as you posed. While I agree that in general, girls seem to "mature quicker" personality-wise than boys -- and thus finding it easier to succeed in a school environment where 'J' qualities are beneficial -- you must remember that this education system was originally created for boys by men (recall that girls/women were barred from higher education for the longest time until recent history). It seems that only now, when women are out-pacing men in educational institutions by way of their hard work, a social "emergency" suddenly arises.
The question is: are there really sexist barriers putting men at an unfair disadvantage in our education system, or are more women relative to men succeeding in higher education simply because they work harder and/or are more motivated for good grades?

[thod]

Neurological studies do show gender differences. The variance between individuals may be greater than that of the groups, but they do exist. Because this can be used to justify role placement, it is denied that it exists at all.

	The question is: are there really sexist barriers putting men at an unfair disadvantage in our education system, or are more women relative to men succeeding in higher education simply because they work harder and/or are more motivated for good grades?

The argument is that the girls are more motivated and work harder is because the system has changed to motivate them to do so. If the system was changed to something that motivates boys, they would work harder and the girls less so. One possible solution is to attempt to balance things so that each group is equally motivated. Although equal, this would be optimal for neither. The other solution is single sex education.

The top single sex education schools give the most insight into innate ability since each can optimise for its students.