[PrometheusENTJ]

I've been getting a strange vibe at work -- hints that I should "make people like me" for several months were followed by an order to set up an hour of one-on-one time every week with a higher up for mentoring.

Three weeks into it I realized that the mentor has given me no food for thought and indirectly and frequently complained about people who have a shell around them and are "unknowable". At the same time he has suggested I should figure out what I am really good at and hinted I should take small and narrow roles as an IC. He was not happy to hear that I know what I would like to do (I have it all planned out) in the longer term and keeps on mixing talk with advice and passive-aggressive jabs, such as the one noted above.

I have told him I am a friendly chap but usually do not talk about my private life (I have been managing teams for 5 years) and still able to build solid relationships over time based on respect and high ideals. I certainly do not trust this person who has gone around badmouthing me just because I would not kowtow more than once a month and do not wish to self-disclose much lest it be used against me since he seems to have a visceral discomfort with me. We are both highly educated persons working in a large and respected company, and I find it surprising that competence and professionalism are not enough!

Anyone else have that experience? Coping mechanisms?

[Autumnleaf]

Mirror him and tell him what he wants to hear. Try using reflective listening.

[PrometheusENTJ]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Mirror him and tell him what he wants to hear. Try using reflective listening.

Thank you for your input. Mirroring is certainly not a good idea in this situation as the said person is cagey, stiff and smiles only with his mouth not with his eyes. I have tried reflective listening for three weeks in a row but it has not accomplished anything except mild frustration in him ("[PrometheusENTJ] is defensive, talks so he does not have to listen"). I am getting a feeling this person wants me to leave given his myriad references to my competence not being good enough and a loner as in more than a year I have heard nothing positive about myself from this person.

[RBM]

Are you in an environment in which Documentation would be accumulated in the process you are going through ?

Do you have access to that documentation ?

If not, a strategy might be to nail down some specific expectations versus your record ("I have been managing teams for 5 years").

It seems that there is a lot more to what's going on than what's specified in the thread.

[Autumnleaf]

Originally Posted by PrometheusENTJ To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Thank you for your input. Mirroring is certainly not a good idea in this situation as the said person is cagey, stiff and smiles only with his mouth not with his eyes. I have tried reflective listening for three weeks in a row but it has not accomplished anything except mild frustration in him ("[PrometheusENTJ] is defensive, talks so he does not have to listen"). I am getting a feeling this person wants me to leave given his myriad references to my competence not being good enough and a loner as in more than a year I have heard nothing positive about myself from this person.

Frustration in someone who is trying to get rid of you isn't great but it can be good. Pretend to be a team player and ask them for how they would handle x, y or z situation. Act like you just love working there and are happy they are your boss. After each talk you'll probably want to brush your teeth and gargle with mouthwash but it should keep it hard for them to get a handle on you.

[Mateo1041]

I'd agree. Put on the proverbial INTJ happy mask. That generally works pretty well for me. I view it as just another weapon in the career arsenal. In my case, I'd probably get fired if I didn't put it on as my natural side would love to tell things as they are.

[Monte314]

This fellow has an opportunity to improve his skills. The OP demonstrates pretty clearly that he has misintrepreted the situation; rather than take advantage of his employer's manifest interest in helping him grow professionally, he's decided to piss into the wind.

The answer is not to put on a mask and hide what he is. The answer is to put a little faith in the professional assessment of those older and wiser who are prepared to stick with him while he gets past his limitations.

Unless he is able to humble up and get serious about this, he'll be out of there in a month or two, on his way to reliving the same scenario at his next employment port-of-call. Will anything have changed? Only the address...

[Arcanist]

I've had similar issues at work and started a thread about it months ago. Unfortunately, you have to play the game. However, you can make it kind of fun. Fabricate stories about your outside life and see how well you can sell them. Oh, and double entendres! A couple of months ago I got away with saying that a coworker's peasant blouse certainly suited her, right before a meeting. Delivered with the most delightful and innocent smile, she could say nothing but a timid "thank you." A couple of other people chuckled. In fact, I'm still laughing about it.

I originally got in trouble at work for my charming insouciance. That's mainly because the people I work with have queer little ideas regarding respect and relationships. If I don't show interest and act like I like them, then in their minds I must hate them. If I employ my own judgement, then I must be disrespecting them by not seeking guidance. They pay me to work, not to fucking stroke their egos. And I do my job well.

I hold the opinion that most people are childlike. Be the bigger person. Play along and soothe their petulance. Doesn't mean you can't have some fun along the way, just be subtle.

[PrometheusENTJ]

	Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Are you in an environment in which Documentation would be accumulated in the process you are going through ? Do you have access to that documentation ? If not, a strategy might be to nail down some specific expectations versus your record ("I have been managing teams for 5 years"). It seems that there is a lot more to what's going on than what's specified in the thread.

RBM, you are absolutely right (awesome acuity!). Another colleague of mine (along with me) are being pushed to say how we wanted to report to this person. There has been nothing to report -- in fact, my performance has been praised profusely and officially in the recent performance review. This is just unofficial, done in the hope that we'll voluntarily move under this stonewaller who holds grudges.

---------- Post added 03-30-2011 at 06:20 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Monte314 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This fellow has an opportunity to improve his skills. The OP demonstrates pretty clearly that he has misintrepreted the situation; rather than take advantage of his employer's manifest interest in helping him grow professionally, he's decided to piss into the wind. The answer is not to put on a mask and hide what he is. The answer is to put a little faith in the professional assessment of those older and wiser who are prepared to stick with him while he gets past his limitations. Unless he is able to humble up and get serious about this, he'll be out of there in a month or two, on his way to reliving the same scenario at his next employment port-of-call. Will anything have changed? Only the address...

Monte, you are wildly presumptuous! At 36, I am in senior management trying to break into executive levels of a large company.

I am not "putting a mask and hiding what I am", it is one person's perception. Similarly "wiser" is merely a presumption on your part as is your bold prediction! If the assessment of these "older" people was "professional" we would have seen it in a performance review.
Where in the OP did you find evidence for "pissing into the wind"?

And from where comes the "Unless he is able to humble up and get serious about this, he'll be out of there in a month or two"? Seriously, termination for not ingratiating and not brown-nosing enough in a large public company?

When I said I listened to this person reflectively, it means I listened and paraphrased, and I know I did it accurately. Given that, his "frustration" is merely a ploy to look sophisticated. I have asked him for guidance and he has none to offer. Of course I play the game, look happy, busy, make small talk at the water cooler and help others on a daily basis.

---------- Post added 03-30-2011 at 06:28 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Arcanist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I've had similar issues at work and started a thread about it months ago. Unfortunately, you have to play the game. However, you can make it kind of fun. Fabricate stories about your outside life and see how well you can sell them. Oh, and double entendres! A couple of months ago I got away with saying that a coworker's peasant blouse certainly suited her, right before a meeting. Delivered with the most delightful and innocent smile, she could say nothing but a timid "thank you." A couple of other people chuckled. In fact, I'm still laughing about it. I originally got in trouble at work for my charming insouciance. That's mainly because the people I work with have queer little ideas regarding respect and relationships. If I don't show interest and act like I like them, then in their minds I must hate them. If I employ my own judgement, then I must be disrespecting them by not seeking guidance. They pay me to work, not to fucking stroke their egos. And I do my job well. I hold the opinion that most people are childlike. Be the bigger person. Play along and soothe their petulance. Doesn't mean you can't have some fun along the way, just be subtle.

This is a good post. I love the phrase "charming insouciance" -- I've had it since grade school. You've hit upon the key theme of "respect" here. I'm a polymath and avoid talking about my interests lest it discomfits them, but do interject stories about my children and pets and wife regularly. Smiling and making small talk has not worked with this person because he's a known asshole whose supervisor loves him (they are alike).

[Arcanist]

How well do you know the person in question? Enough to know about his hobbies and interests?

Here's something I tried on my boss and it seemed to work. He lightened up a bit while we were talking about the topic. My boss is an avid hunter, but I certainly am not. However, my good friend is a hunter and I hit him up for a couple of his hunting stories. Then, I just replaced one of his hunting friends with myself and retold one of the stories to my boss when he mentioned the topic. Then I claimed something like "I never have much luck. Didn't get anything this year" and he proceeded to give me a series of tips for 10 minutes and seemed happy to do so.

This kind of stuff gets tedious sometimes. I've never understood why people treat work as some sort of supplemental social outlet. They don't seem to understand that the only reason I even bother talking to them is because I'm paid for it.

[Autumnleaf]

One thing I did is ask my boss how I can help her to succeed because I know that is in my best interest. After that she seemed happy with me for awhile. You don't really have to kiss ass so much as let the boss know you want them to succeed.

[SShack]

Let me ask you a completely different question: Based on the way you talk about the folks you work with, why do you want to be a leader in the first place?

[Haumea]

Lie. This is one of those situations where lying is completely acceptable (people prying into that which is none of their business.)

[Monte314]

	Originally Posted by PrometheusENTJ To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Monte, you are wildly presumptuous!

Based upon the additional information you have provided, I must agree. I am the one who misinterpreted the situation. I apologize.

[Arcanist]

I get the sense the OP just wants to do his job and not be roped into fulfilling the inappropriate emotional needs of his coworkers.

[SShack]

	Originally Posted by Arcanist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I get the sense the OP just wants to do his job and not be roped into fulfilling the inappropriate emotional needs of his coworkers.

He wants to be promoted into a position of greater leadership. Not unusual for an ENTJ, of course.

I think the issue here is a misunderstanding caused by a preference for Fi over Fe (and weak Fi as it is). You think people want you to be "like them." That's not really the case. They want you to be able to relate to them, really. They want to know that you grasp their concerns and stresses that affect their lives. To somebody with a preference for introverted feeling, this may seem like they're trying to "change" you. As much as it may drive an XNTJ crazy, morale management is an integral part of leadership.

Arcanist is kind of proposing a "fake it 'til you make it" approach. It works for ENTPs because we're better able to pick up the cues thanks to Ne and Fe.

[RBM]

Originally Posted by SShack

I think the issue here is a misunderstanding caused by a preference for Fi over Fe (and weak Fi as it is). You think people want you to be "like them." That's not really the case. They want you to be able to relate to them, really. They want to know that you grasp their concerns and stresses that affect their lives. To somebody with a preference for introverted feeling, this may seem like they're trying to "change" you. As much as it may drive an XNTJ crazy, morale management is an integral part of leadership.

Since I'm weak in MBTI-speak can this be translated as an analysis that says the OP has 'misconstrued' the actual agenda ?

Thanks for the translation services ;-)

[SShack]

	Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Since I'm weak in MBTI-speak can this be translated as an analysis that says the OP has 'misconstrued' the actual agenda ? Thanks for the translation services ;-)

He doesn't understand/relate to OP, therefore assumes OP doesn't understand others. This may be playing out elsewhere in the company as well. I'm not sure OP understands him either. He does sound passive-aggressive based on OP posts, but information is so vague. In my experience XNTJ are quick to ascribe motives to workplace behavior that aren't nearly as sinister as they assume.

It's easy to dismiss annoying people at work as assholes, but those labels actually prevent getting past the problem. God knows I do it, too.

[RBM]

	Originally Posted by "SShack"...
	In my experience XNTJ are quick to ascribe motives to workplace behavior that aren't nearly as sinister as they assume. It's easy to dismiss annoying people at work as assholes, but those labels actually prevent getting past the problem. God knows I do it, too.

Ok, yes the 'ascribing' of motives versus the actual 'understanding' of motives.

My first reply was related to Documentation acquisition of the process he's going through in a hope to better 'ascribe' motivation of the antagonist.

[PrometheusENTJ]

	Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ok, yes the 'ascribing' of motives versus the actual 'understanding' of motives. My first reply was related to Documentation acquisition of the process he's going through in a hope to better 'ascribe' motivation of the antagonist.

I sincerely appreciate the thought and time you all invested in your replies. Some excellent points were raised and I realize I have been gingerly with context and information.

I'm in a group that is strongly personality-based. Let me explain. Those who are "in" can do whatever they please. Even mathematical proofs are ignored if they do not fit in with the plan. The unit is struggling, of course. And I have been told that my productivity needs to come down by 80% as it is making others look bad.

SShack, it's a matter of fragile egos. People get lazy over time and their brain is dulled. It is not me misrepresenting this person's attitude. Other data has been collated in my mind which I do not feel comfortable sharing. His agenda is simple: pure submission from my part, even on areas that he knows nothing about or has any experience in. Suffice it to say that it is all "confirmation bias". I am a leader by how others congregate to me as they feel they can learn from me.

My supervisor is incompetent and has to work 12 hours a day just to stay where he is, and he feels threatened by me (as evinced by his randomly appropriating my presentations and eliminating me from meetings), so that's another blind alley. In fact much of it is his doing -- he told me to just "f*^# others" if they disagree with my agenda and he'll watch my behind. Of course he didn't, instead he's making it look like all his incompetence stems from my bad relationships!
I just need to leave this group (got 3 approaches in the past two days). It is a curse to be bright in most places, until you can reach the executive level!

[SShack]

Originally Posted by PrometheusENTJ To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I sincerely appreciate the thought and time you all invested in your replies. Some excellent points were raised and I realize I have been gingerly with context and information. I'm in a group that is strongly personality-based. Let me explain. Those who are "in" can do whatever they please. Even mathematical proofs are ignored if they do not fit in with the plan. The unit is struggling, of course. And I have been told that my productivity needs to come down by 80% as it is making others look bad. SShack, it's a matter of fragile egos. People get lazy over time and their brain is dulled. It is not me misrepresenting this person's attitude. Other data has been collated in my mind which I do not feel comfortable sharing. His agenda is simple: pure submission from my part, even on areas that he knows nothing about or has any experience in. Suffice it to say that it is all "confirmation bias". I am a leader by how others congregate to me as they feel they can learn from me. My supervisor is incompetent and has to work 12 hours a day just to stay where he is, and he feels threatened by me (as evinced by his randomly appropriating my presentations and eliminating me from meetings), so that's another blind alley. In fact much of it is his doing -- he told me to just "f*^# others" if they disagree with my agenda and he'll watch my behind. Of course he didn't, instead he's making it look like all his incompetence stems from my bad relationships! I just need to leave this group (got 3 approaches in the past two days). It is a curse to be bright in most places, until you can reach the executive level!

If you have the opportunity to maybe switch to a different work group, I would take it. Regardless of who is responsible, your relationship seems pretty poisoned beyond repair.

Something to keep in mind though: People tend to assume that guys up the ladder don't realize the incompetence/worthlessness of some of the managers they deal with. I felt this way as I was struggling with a peer-level manager I have very little confidence in. I wondered for about two years how she was managing to fool people into thinking she knew what she was doing.

It turned out she hadn't. She is not well-respected by other managers. She has pretty much Peter Principled herself as far as she's going to get. My own boss mentioned to me a few times that he wished we had a better relationship. Because he tends to be fairly supportive of my ideas and level of commitment, I began to realize the subtext: He was hoping that working with me would result in her improving or growing in some fashion.

Unfortunately that's not the case. She's too defensive and passive-aggressive. She tries to deflect away attention of her problems by meddling in other departments. I have nothing to "teach" her if she can't even acknowledge her own problems. (Even worse, her employees are learning from her behavior and are doing the same thing, which, hysterically, is a source of frustration for her. She doesn't realize they're doing the same thing she does).

And you may ask "Why don't they just replace her"? I certainly do. Business environment inertia is actually more to blame than office politics. The sunken cost fallacy becomes a huge issue as you go up the personnel food chain: "We've invested so much money in this manager. If we replace them, that's even more money. Is there some way to make them work?" Of course, they don't ever really analyze what money they're losing by this manager's inefficiency, particularly if they're on salary. It's often hard to know.

In addition, given the state of the economy here, I have no doubt that there's a fear that if we remove a manager from certain positions, we won't be permitted to replace him or her in order to save money. So you end up with mediocrity, or worse, for fear of having nothing at all.

There is a possibility that somebody out there is hoping that you can make this group functional in order to save them from the burden of having to dig in and make costly changes. If people on your level are congregating to you for leadership, I have no doubt that folks above your group's pay grade are noticing.

[vertex]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Mirror him and tell him what he wants to hear. Try using reflective listening.

bingo.

read up about NLP, ask people about their hobbies and mirror them. People just want confirmation that their ideas are good. easy.

My best trick is to ask people what they want in life, then keep asking why until they finally expose the reason for WHY they want to be/have something. Then tell them they can achieve that with some insights that are vague, cult like. Never fails
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[PrometheusENTJ]

Originally Posted by SShack To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If you have the opportunity to maybe switch to a different work group, I would take it. Regardless of who is responsible, your relationship seems pretty poisoned beyond repair. Something to keep in mind though: People tend to assume that guys up the ladder don't realize the incompetence/worthlessness of some of the managers they deal with. I felt this way as I was struggling with a peer-level manager I have very little confidence in. I wondered for about two years how she was managing to fool people into thinking she knew what she was doing. It turned out she hadn't. She is not well-respected by other managers. She has pretty much Peter Principled herself as far as she's going to get. My own boss mentioned to me a few times that he wished we had a better relationship. Because he tends to be fairly supportive of my ideas and level of commitment, I began to realize the subtext: He was hoping that working with me would result in her improving or growing in some fashion. Unfortunately that's not the case. She's too defensive and passive-aggressive. She tries to deflect away attention of her problems by meddling in other departments. I have nothing to "teach" her if she can't even acknowledge her own problems. (Even worse, her employees are learning from her behavior and are doing the same thing, which, hysterically, is a source of frustration for her. She doesn't realize they're doing the same thing she does). And you may ask "Why don't they just replace her"? I certainly do. Business environment inertia is actually more to blame than office politics. The sunken cost fallacy becomes a huge issue as you go up the personnel food chain: "We've invested so much money in this manager. If we replace them, that's even more money. Is there some way to make them work?" Of course, they don't ever really analyze what money they're losing by this manager's inefficiency, particularly if they're on salary. It's often hard to know. In addition, given the state of the economy here, I have no doubt that there's a fear that if we remove a manager from certain positions, we won't be permitted to replace him or her in order to save money. So you end up with mediocrity, or worse, for fear of having nothing at all. There is a possibility that somebody out there is hoping that you can make this group functional in order to save them from the burden of having to dig in and make costly changes. If people on your level are congregating to you for leadership, I have no doubt that folks above your group's pay grade are noticing.

Thank you SShack for your very thoughtful and insightful response, much appreciated! In my experience, it takes two or three consecutive years with poor 360 feedback, talent attrition and weak (measurable such as revenue or profit margin) performance -- all three of them -- for any action to take place. Personal relationships, association and apathy are also factors.

[peppersasen]

*sniffle, sniffle* Do I smell the stench of office politics?
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Hm. I do.

I don't actually have advice (as in a solution) for you. But I can tell what I think about your situation: Honestly, I doubt there's a real problem with your personality. I think whoever came up with this idea and initiated the "mentoring" in the first place is simply trying to put you in a bad light. I mean you sound pretty competent to me, so your performance doesn't seem to be the problem. Plus you don't talk about your personal life with your coworkers, so they have no dirt on you. So I wouldn't be surprised if PrometheusENTJ's "personality issues" were fictional.

Disclaimer: I know this may be just my N seeing way too far through the surface. I am way more paranoid than the average person when it comes to these matters because I've seen some pretty messed up stuff in my lifetime. Things as absurd as an office bully who desperately tries to play victim by "going on leave" because she was distressed and needed to take a break from being around an intern she perceived to be "annoying".

To be fair, based on what I've also seen, being very open about your personal life seems to be able to get people places. I once worked in the same office with this man (I didn't actually directly work with him, though because he was my boss' boss' boss' boss) and he would talk about how "his spouse would phone his coworker's spouse" in an informal meeting where the entire office of around 100-ish workers were present. Plus, if you Google this man's name, you'll find a public profile where he tells bits and pieces of details of his personal life (everything from his family to how he spends his spare time). It made me shudder. I would feel violated if that sort of information was posted on a corporate website (it's nothing like blogging/tweeting anonymously). But judging from his position at that time (pretty much the highest ranking person in the office), it seems that reveling information about your personal life and what you do outside the office can "get you places". I "can" [help]. But I don't believe it should be "necessary".

	Originally Posted by Arcanist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I get the sense the OP just wants to do his job and not be roped into fulfilling the inappropriate emotional needs of his coworkers.

I also agree. But I think the inappropriate "emotional needs" aren't needs at all. To me it seems they're just making it up because he's so competent and professional, it's impossible for them to find a flaw to exploit.

---------- Post added 04-05-2011 at 11:05 AM ----------

Since you mentioned that "the mentor has given me no food for thought" during these sessions, I thought I should add that office politics and psychological warfare are pretty much the same thing. These people are trying to make you and others believe something's wrong with you. Don't fall for it.

[Asinine]

I beg the pardon of the forum, for I fear I may be waxing too dark on this one, but:

From your description, I'd say they want to know why they don't see you playing The Game. And, I would say you have likely made it up pretty far up the food chain if you are encountering this.

Like you? I believe the colloquial term is "frenemy." They are interpreting you not opening up with your exploits as a sign that you are holding out on them. Basically, that you are trying to win one at their expense, or so that you can avoid paying "proper respect" to the other players. Failing that, they would at least like to have some dirt to nail you with if you ever become too much of a nuisance.

If you don't "wise up" you run the risk of being patsied and sidelined for "just not getting it." Call it a hunch.