[envirodude]

I used to be a separatist, or more precisely, a provincialist, meaning I thought QC could be its own country, the Maritimes, ON, the Prairies and BC all on their own. Then I thought about what a drag it would be changing money all the time, and how inefficient the armed forces would be, so it would make sense to share some of those features between the newly formed countries. I thought the model would be like the mythical "sovereignty association" from Rene Levesque's referendum.

Then (of course) it dawned on me that that's basically what Canadian federalism is anyways, so now I'm a federalist. Mon Canada inclut le Quebec!

[Fishism]

	Originally Posted by envirodude To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Then (of course) it dawned on me that that's basically what Canadian federalism is anyways, so now I'm a federalist. Mon Canada inclut le Quebec!

Moi aussi!!

We've made it work up to this point. Why mess with it now? Besides, I live in the Atlantic Provinces and I REALLY don't want to be an American. I prefer to have people from other countries like me!

[Trevor]

I think it's safe to say you are safe from American assimilation. We have enough problems keeping the liberals we have from driving this country into the poor house.

[LaoTzu]

It wasn't the Liberals who put you in the poorhouse, that's just the popular mythology.

I seem to recall somewhat smooth sailing through the global recession here.
Something about that nutty socialist idea of regulating the banking system... but what do we know...



Were QC to separate; I would be on the side of refusing sovereignty association. Even if it hurt Canada to do so.
Fuck 'em. Bon Voyage mes Habitants! :'(
As it is, I would hate for them to leave; and I think it's a silly notion... they do get a lot out of this partnership; and the Federal Gov't isn't interfering with their racist language laws.... I think it's a political football over there more than anything. Nobody's telling QC what to do.



I went to the NDP rally in my city the other day. I'd never gone to one of these things, and went to check it out. It was interesting. One promise is to give tax breaks to business'es that hire new employees; and I think that's a good way to go. Rather than the American way of giving tax-breaks to Corp's; and praying that they'll reciprocate with jobs.

[Trevor]

	Originally Posted by LaoTzu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It wasn't the Liberals who put you in the poorhouse, that's just the popular mythology.

I am referring to a liberal mentality. I have a more broad definition of liberal in that it applies to anyone who supports large government.

	I seem to recall somewhat smooth sailing through the global recession here. Something about that nutty socialist idea of regulating the banking system... but what do we know...

Regulating the banks isn't really a socialist notion. Using tax payer money to bail them out and reward incompetence is. Where are you from?

Were QC to separate; I would be on the side of refusing sovereignty association. Even if it hurt Canada to do so. Fuck 'em. Bon Voyage mes Habitants! :'( As it is, I would hate for them to leave; and I think it's a silly notion... they do get a lot out of this partnership; and the Federal Gov't isn't interfering with their racist language laws.... I think it's a political football over there more than anything. Nobody's telling QC what to do.

Quebec is a strange place. They are like a square peg in a round Canadian hole. I'm all for a people being able to decide what language they're going to speak but when you're part of a primarily English speaking nation, local laws restricting the use of English seem out of place.

	I went to the NDP rally in my city the other day. I'd never gone to one of these things, and went to check it out. It was interesting. One promise is to give tax breaks to business'es that hire new employees; and I think that's a good way to go. Rather than the American way of giving tax-breaks to Corp's; and praying that they'll reciprocate with jobs.

In the US we have a disproportionately high corporate tax rate compared to other parts of the world. When it's cheaper for a company to relocate and outsource than to produce locally maybe there is a problem with the tax burden. The size of government spending and complicated tax code are the real problems.

[JTG]

	Originally Posted by Trevor To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I am referring to a liberal mentality. I have a more broad definition of liberal in that it applies to anyone who supports large government.

Then:
1) Your definition of liberalism is not broad; it's incorrect.
2) The US government grew at the largest rate in history under G.W. Bush and a republican-led congress.
3) His point about Canadia sailing through the recession is a valid one. People (mostly conservatives) here in the US bitch about "those damn liberal socialists" trying to move us closer to a system like our northern neighbors have, but the fact is that while our economies are closely tied, they barely felt the crash that almost sent us into a second depression.

	Originally Posted by Trevor To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Regulating the banks isn't really a socialist notion. Using tax payer money to bail them out and reward incompetence is. Where are you from?

4) That is not what socialism is about. You seem to be wrong again. I'm guessing somebody told you that's what socialism is, and you just believed them. Protip: conservative talking points in the US are rarely based on fact so much as fear mongering and reactionary spin.
5) The person you're addressing is from Canada. I thought that was clear from the context.

	Originally Posted by Trevor To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In the US we have a disproportionately high corporate tax rate compared to other parts of the world. When it's cheaper for a company to relocate and outsource than to produce locally maybe there is a problem with the tax burden. The size of government spending and complicated tax code are the real problems.

I'm all for cutting corporate tax rates if we also cut their ability to evade taxes AND still receive tax refunds. If we cut our 35% corporate tax down to 30% tax, we're still getting $0 out of it, because companies can just evade taxes and get away with it.

	Originally Posted by http://djangomango.tumblr.com/post/4257505873/ten-giant-u-s-companies-avoiding-income-taxes-sen
	1) Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings.

It's just a blog, i know, but the facts are taken straight from a senator's speech on the floor, so i'm guessing they're reliable enough.

[Trevor]

	Originally Posted by JTG To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Then: 2) The US government grew at the largest rate in history under G.W. Bush and a republican-led congress.

No argument here. They're all big government liberals. I've always said Republicans and Democrats are the same. The only way to differentiate the two is by their campaign promises.

	3) His point about Canadia sailing through the recession is a valid one. People (mostly conservatives) here in the US bitch about "those damn liberal socialists" trying to move us closer to a system like our northern neighbors have, but the fact is that while our economies are closely tied, they barely felt the crash that almost sent us into a second depression.

I don't know a lot about Canadian economics but the people I do know up there are just as fearful about losing their jobs as many Americans are. In addition to that they pay more in taxes, have no right to bear arms, and have a really shitty health care system. Unlike most Americans I've actually spent some time there and know quite a few people there.

	4) That is not what socialism is about. You seem to be wrong again.

I suppose you're right. It's worse than socialism. The people fund the corporations without any control. My apologies.

	I'm guessing somebody told you that's what socialism is, and you just believed them.

Is that really necessary?

	Protip: conservative talking points in the US are rarely based on fact so much as fear mongering and reactionary spin

No shit, really? I had no idea.
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	5) The person you're addressing is from Canada. I thought that was clear from the context.

Duh. I was curious about which part.

	I'm all for cutting corporate tax rates if we also cut their ability to evade taxes AND still receive tax refunds. If we cut our 35% corporate tax down to 30% tax, we're still getting $0 out of it, because companies can just evade taxes and get away with it.

I'm happy to see that you at least agree that the tax codes need to be changed but why do you ignore the need to dramatically slash government spending?

If you want to discuss how to fix what is wrong with the USA or how stupid the average American is I'd be happy to do it in another thread rather than hijacking this thread with a pissing match.

[JTG]

My point was that Canada is doing alright for itself. No country is perfect, but what Canada may lack in excellence compared to the US (it has "lower peaks" so to speak) it makes up for in greater stability (less harsh valleys, if you will). In many ways, i think this is a superior approach. Criticize their "socialist inefficiency" all you want, but they have a higher median household income, as well as higher rates of homeownership and their human development index is higher when adjusted for inequality. (This means that the US may be richer as a whole, but Canadians in general have better lives)

[Trevor]

I'm curious to see how long that can be maintained.

[mormeguil]

	Quebec is a strange place. They are like a square peg in a round Canadian hole. I'm all for a people being able to decide what language they're going to speak but when you're part of a primarily English speaking nation, local laws restricting the use of English seem out of place.

Then again if you look at the history of french canadian they come from a completly different background and it's quite natural to be fearfull of external control since the tranquil revolution.

Also, if you look at any election you can see a very differnt voting pattern un Quebec then the rest of Canada. It does make since to consider separation on such ground. Personally I do not believe this is viable right now but maybe someday...

	I don't know a lot about Canadian economics but the people I do know up there are just as fearful about losing their jobs as many Americans are. In addition to that they pay more in taxes, have no right to bear arms, and have a really shitty health care system. Unlike most Americans I've actually spent some time there and know quite a few people there.

I haven't heard anyone being fearfull of losing jobs. The job market was not impacted much by the economic crisis. The city are overall quite safe place so not much need for handguns (altought you do have a lot of hunting rifle) and healthcare is not that bad. Waits are long but the quality of the care themself are very good and nobody lives in fear of not being able to pay hospitals bills. Overall I have to wonder what kind of canadian you have seen.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by mormeguil To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I haven't heard anyone being fearfull of losing jobs. The job market was not impacted much by the economic crisis. The city are overall quite safe place so not much need for handguns (altought you do have a lot of hunting rifle) and healthcare is not that bad. Waits are long but the quality of the care themself are very good and nobody lives in fear of not being able to pay hospitals bills. Overall I have to wonder what kind of canadian you have seen.

My wife and her family are French Canadian. A friend of mine also moved to Montreal from the US. My elderly inlaws do not get timely or adequate health care. Most of my inlaws are entrepreneurs but the few who are employed by others have seen some instability. My friend who moved there is quite anxious to come back, which I find funny. He is extremely liberal by American standards but you guys may just have broken him of that habit, lol. Too many taxes, too much government, and all the extra French bullshit on top of all that. I tried to warn him, hahahaha.

You know, one thing I want to bring back from Canada is the "burn out". You guys have it made alright. You go to the doctor, tell him you're stressed out, and you get several months off work with pay. That shit is priceless.

[Grimace]

Originally Posted by JTG To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Then: 1) Your definition of liberalism is not broad; it's incorrect. 2) The US government grew at the largest rate in history under G.W. Bush and a republican-led congress. 3) His point about Canadia sailing through the recession is a valid one. People (mostly conservatives) here in the US bitch about "those damn liberal socialists" trying to move us closer to a system like our northern neighbors have, but the fact is that while our economies are closely tied, they barely felt the crash that almost sent us into a second depression. 4) That is not what socialism is about. You seem to be wrong again. I'm guessing somebody told you that's what socialism is, and you just believed them. Protip: conservative talking points in the US are rarely based on fact so much as fear mongering and reactionary spin. 5) The person you're addressing is from Canada. I thought that was clear from the context. I'm all for cutting corporate tax rates if we also cut their ability to evade taxes AND still receive tax refunds. If we cut our 35% corporate tax down to 30% tax, we're still getting $0 out of it, because companies can just evade taxes and get away with it. It's just a blog, i know, but the facts are taken straight from a senator's speech on the floor, so i'm guessing they're reliable enough.

I think the biggest reason Canada did so well during then recession falls on the Banks. Canada has "The Big Five" banks (RBC, Scotia, BMO, TD, CIBC) whereas the US had around 10 000 I think, many of them local, or very regional, and completely unable to absorb and/or regulate that degree of economic backlash.

---------- Post added 04-09-2011 at 12:58 PM ----------

Harper riding around on ATV's, and wearing cowboy hats, and trying to be the "everyman" for his alberta voters is almost unwatchable in its awkwardness. I mean, do people believe he isn't the pencil pusher, introvert, emotionless, spiteful, policy geek? I do not.


If Harper wasn't so hell bent on denying reality, I might be more supportive of him. I mean, the amount of hypocrisy he exhibits on every piece of policy, every gaff in his caucus, every attack ad, just baffles.

I think Rick Mercer says it best:

"The government was defeated on confidence motion because they were in contempt of the Canadian Parliament--a vote Stephen Harper immediately claimed did not occur. He didn't argue about the semantics of the vote; he simply denied it happened at all, preferring instead to believe his government was defeated on the budget. There is evidence to the contrary: he was there and it was on TV, but still, as far as he is concerned it didn't happen. Some people might consider this inability to understand or admit to what is happening in one's immediate surroundings systematic of a small stroke or a severe concussion, but in Ottawa it's just a symptom of spending too much time around people in the PMO."

[Huruma]

If I vote, I think it will be for the NDP.

[RedOrange823]

If you're unsure about what party to vote for, the CBC website has a
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you can take, which supposedly helps.

I took it and scored roughly in between Liberals and NDPs. I'll probably go Liberal, though.

[envirodude]

I'm in a known "safe" conservative riding - the kind that voted Reform rather than Progressive Conservative. So my vote will inevitably be a protest of some sort - so what should an INTJ do in such a situation?

a) vote conscience (Green)
b) vote for "mainstream" party closest to views (NDP)
c) vote for "mainstream" party most likely to form opposition (Liberal)
d) joke vote for Rhinoceros (not sure if they are running in my riding)
e) not vote.

[mormeguil]

	I'm in a known "safe" conservative riding - the kind that voted Reform rather than Progressive Conservative. So my vote will inevitably be a protest of some sort - so what should an INTJ do in such a situation?

This may sound crazy, but I firmly believe people should always vote for whoever they want to be elected. Voting with some sort of strategy muckles up things especially in long term and stop new party from showing quickly.

[envirodude]

You're right - that sounds crazy.
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I've previously bemoaned the lack of proportional rep in Canada, but until we get with the program, strategic voting is essential to maximising your vote's effect. Regarding new parties, I have the same comment - until we get proportional rep, new parties do not seem advantageous. If anything, as long as "coalition" is synonymous with communism (to misquote Harper only slightly), I would suggest we have too many political parties.

[SmilesnKisses]

I think the Canadian model IS broken. We should vote for the green party to break into a new era.

[LaoTzu]

NDP to win today. A Victory for Socialism in North America proper!


(Tomorrow a coalition of Liberal/Conservatives to wrestle power away from the NDP... :P )

[Vermillion]

So is weed going to get legalized in Canada now?
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[Alanas]

Originally Posted by Trevor To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Having spent a good bit of time in Canada I've come to the following conclusions. 1. Your politicians are pretty much like ours. They're assholes. 2. Your conservatives seem to be more liberal than our democrats and your liberals make Karl Marx look like Charles Krauthammer. 3. I'd go ahead and cut Quebec loose if I were you. 3. You guys have a real talent for growing pot. Legalize it already. 4. I'll take my broken political system over your broken political system any day, thank you.

The numbering of yours has two 3's.


Also, NDP FTW!

[envirodude]

Not just legalised weed, "massages" too. Nothing better after a hard day than a doob and some loving attention. But that's only if we surf the orange wave with Jack!

This election reminds me a lot of when Bob Rae swept to power in Ontario - it wasn't supposed to happen, but something weird was in the air...

This from wikipedia:

Peterson called a snap election for 1990. The NDP entered the campaign with low expectations, as the Liberals still held a significant lead in opinion polls and all signs indicated that they would win another majority government. Rae later acknowledged that he did not expect to win the election, and planned to leave electoral politics at some point in the next sitting of the legislature. A number of prominent MPPs, ..., chose not to seek re-election. ...

Contrary to expectations, the Liberal Party's support base declined significantly in mid-campaign. The snap election was interpreted by many voters as a sign of arrogance, while lingering effects from an earlier scandal involving Liberal fundraiser Patti Starr undermined public confidence in the government. Also, while Peterson and Rae both supported the Meech Lake Accord for constitutional reform, which became unpopular in Ontario, Peterson's prominent role in drafting the accord proved a particular liability. There were also signs of an economic downturn by this time and some believed that Peterson had called the snap election to avoid its full impact. The Progressive Conservatives were led by the inexperienced Mike Harris, who ran a narrow campaign focused on tax issues and was unable to capitalize on the Liberal slide. As such, Rae's NDP was the primary beneficiary. Rae himself was more confident than in the 1985 and 1987 campaigns, and took a more aggressive stance against the Peterson government. A poll taken late in the campaign showed the NDP holding a slight lead over the Liberals.

The election results were nonetheless a surprise to political observers across the province, even to longtime NDP supporters. The NDP was elected to a strong majority government with 74 seats. The popular vote was very close, with the NDP outpolling the Liberals 37% to 34%. Several ridings were won by narrow margins. However, the NDP managed to take many seats from the Liberals in the Greater Toronto Area, and also did better than ever before (or in some cases, since) in many other cities and rural areas. Due to the nature of the first-past-the-post electoral system, which ignores the popular vote and only awards power based on the number of ridings won, this decimated the Liberal caucus.

[OneHertz]

And the conservatives win majority. Thank god!

[RedOrange823]

Booooo.

Oh well, I did my part and voted (not Conservative), but this result was pretty predictable regardless.

I really didn't believe that the NDP actually did have this much new support; I thought the polls were somehow unintentionally biased in some way, but it'll be interesting to see how this develops in the future...and especially how the Liberal party reacts.

[Silverity]

	Originally Posted by RedOrange823 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Booooo. Oh well, I did my part and voted (not Conservative), but this result was pretty predictable regardless. I really didn't believe that the NDP actually did have this much new support; I thought the polls were somehow unintentionally biased in some way, but it'll be interesting to see how this develops in the future...and especially how the Liberal party reacts.

I feel almost sick with dread. A dictator with majority
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I'm glad the NDP got such a rush of support though. Maybe the four years will pass swiftly and our freedoms won't be too stifled under the religious "tradition" Harper loves so much. It will be interesting to see if he shuts down parliament again and for how long... and how badly our health system will be shattered with lack of funding.

Still. If we can hire the guy who offed Osama he has some work for him north of the border.