INTJ: Theory vs. Practice

**Equinox** · 03-22-2011, 05:27 AM

I've recently been thinking about something that happens a lot in my life and probably for others as well. Since we're INTJs, we tend to see the world from a cold, rational perspective and make plans according to our views. For instance, I've often convinced myself in the past that in the popular hypothetical where you pass by a pool that has a "no swimming" sign near it and see a person in it shouting for help and drowning, I would pass by because the sign clearly said "no swimming" and the person got in at their own risk. However, I think that despite my rationalizations, if I actually came across this situation, I would immediately help the person without even thinking about it. In a lot of other situations, I've "convinced" myself that I would act a certain way, but when it actually comes to pass, I do something altruistic or kind instead of cold and legalistic, and without thinking about what I've done until later. On the other hand, I also have the ability to convince myself to act a certain way in certain situations (generally not giving in to pressure or not doing something I shouldn't) and my conviction functions the way I want it to, producing the outcome I planned for. Can anyone give insight into this? Do you feel the same way--that the way we theorize about the world and our actions doesn't necessarily reflect how we act when push comes to shove? Do we do the "right thing" despite convincing ourselves that another way is more rational and correct?

---------- Post added 03-22-2011 at 08:30 AM ----------

I should add that the thing that prompted this happened yesterday. A good friend of mine informed me that his girlfriend had just passed away suddenly. He had planned to propose to her on Friday evening, but she got sick and was going to wait until she got better, but he never had the chance to tell her. I had told myself on past occasions that it was pointless to cry about situations that 1) don't involve me and 2) are beyond my control, but much to my surprise, I started tearing up after reading his message to me.

**coupdhaha** · 03-22-2011, 08:01 AM

As they say, we've all got a heart underneath that steely exterior.

I think for the most part you wouldn't be one of the sobs crying about anything and everything, but in this case, you really cared about your friend and his situation. For the select few INTJs care for, they care for dearly.

**Reddkatz** · 03-22-2011, 08:17 AM

I am sympathetic to my very close friends. I also am sympathetic to other things as well such as the Tsunami that happened in Japan. I usually do my part in helping like donating money to those disasters; or donating blood regularly things like that.

I try to sympathize with other things as well, but as you said if there was a person drowning when there was a no swimming sign, I would say it was the person's fault. I am also this way when there are hikers that take paths that are clearly marked dangerous and then have to get rescued because they didn't pay attention to the signs. My home state started charging hikers that did that, which is a smart move.

**Equinox** · 03-22-2011, 08:21 AM

OK, so you would say it's the person's fault...but (putting faith in rationalization aside) would you still help them if you could?

**Reddkatz** · 03-22-2011, 08:24 AM

	Originally Posted by Equinox To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	OK, so you would say it's the person's fault...but (putting faith in rationalization aside) would you still help them if you could?

I would, but I would keep saying my head "why are you so stupid??"

**Ultimawepun** · 03-22-2011, 08:27 AM

Ever thought that you're deceiving yourself?

It's nice to have integrity but don't just conclude on anything just for the sake of it. It's important to know what you truly want.

I think your "theory" is premature really. I have been there.

**coupdhaha** · 03-22-2011, 08:33 AM

I wouldn't say his theory is premature. I would say he didn't realize that all theories have exceptions.

**Equinox** · 03-22-2011, 09:13 AM

If you mean the part about making up my mind and sticking with it, then the reason why I do that is because I want to. I wouldn't call it deceiving myself, simply making up my mind so that I'll hopefully do what I think is best without having reality intrude on my decision. It's kind of like making dinner on Sunday night and putting it on the freezer to reheat on Monday, rather than rushing to make dinner Monday night because you need to be somewhere in the near future. Isn't it better to make up your mind (more or less) in advance instead of being paralyzed by the urgency of a situation? If you tell yourself something enough, and want to believe it, you WILL believe it. Trust me, I've had a lot of success repressing aspects of myself that I don't like.

**childofprodigy** · 03-22-2011, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by Equinox
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For instance, I've often convinced myself in the past that in the popular hypothetical where you pass by a pool that has a "no swimming" sign near it and see a person in it shouting for help and drowning, I would pass by because the sign clearly said "no swimming" and the person got in at their own risk. However, I think that despite my rationalizations, if I actually came across this situation, I would immediately help the person without even thinking about it.

What if the no swimming sign is there for a reason and you end up drowning as well in the process of helping this person

**Taryuna** · 03-22-2011, 09:55 AM

And here I thought S-types were the ones who obeyed laws and rules no matter if they make sense or not
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Why in the world should a "No swimming" sign stop me in that situation, unless it continues with "Piranhas!" or "Toxic!"?
Please, those signs are only guidelines anyways.

If you look at it from the "But it's his own fault!"-side, the sign has no bearing whatsoever. If you can't swim well enough, you shouldn't go swimming alone, no matter where.
If the person can swim well enough, but some property of the pool makes swimming dangerous, you shouldn't jump in to help him, because chances are you'd drown both. Or get eaten by piranhas.
Perhaps it was an accident and he isn't even at fault, so if you can help without putting yourself in unreasonable danger, you should, even if you assume there should be a death sentece for stupidity. You could always determine the grade of his responsibility afterwards and kill him, if necessary, right?

Also, stereotypes be damned, we aren't robots. This is really sad. I feel sad when I hear about this, even though I don't even know the people in question. Granted, I feel more sorry about the dramatic situation in abstract than about the concrete situation involving concrete people I do neither know nor particularly care about, but that's Fi for you...


	Do you feel the same way--that the way we theorize about the world and our actions doesn't necessarily reflect how we act when push comes to shove? Do we do the "right thing" despite convincing ourselves that another way is more rational and correct?

...More often than not, I'm convinced that doing the right thing isn't particularly irrational. And occasionally, I actually am irrational, I guess. Seems to be one of those side effects of being human.

**Ultimawepun** · 03-22-2011, 10:06 AM

	Originally Posted by Equinox To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If you mean the part about making up my mind and sticking with it, then the reason why I do that is because I want to.

No, there is nothing wrong with that.


	Since we're INTJs, we tend to see the world from a cold, rational perspective and make plans according to our views.

I think your view in general is premature because you overlooked the possibility that you actually care, maybe because you want to maintain the image you mentioned in the quote above.

The thing is, certain people care too much about their image, that they may have overlooked the possibility that they want something else.

There is nothing irrational about sympathy. It's human instinct. EDIT: Or at least as irrational as selfishness.

**Muse** · 03-22-2011, 10:47 AM

Being an INTJ doesn't mean we let people drown in swimming pools. Especially not for some reasoning like 'its the rules'. Like i care.

I wouldn't even think about the sign in a legalistic sense. The most i would consider about it, is that it could mean theres some sort of shock chemicals in the pool for maintenance, perhaps causing the swimmer to drown. Which would mean that i should save them with a pool skimming rod rather than jumping in too. It sounds like fun in a weird kind of way, fishing for people
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As for why someone is in there, who really cares? Its not like the reason changes whats actually going on.

People of skill do what is needed, not what is expected. Hear the call and answer loudly, thats how i live. I have been known to jump out of my car to pry people out of a wrecked vehicle, or help someone in a wheelchair who got stuck. Why? Well, why not?

**Equinox** · 03-22-2011, 12:29 PM

The reason why I follow all the rules put in front of me (unless they directly contradict my moral or religious beliefs) is because I decided long ago that it's easier to follow rules that you either agree with or feel neutral about rather than just "doing whatever" and hoping for the best. I made a commitment to upholding social order because I get a lot of personal gain from doing so, and having made that decision I intend to stick with it. I don't like society necessarily, but at least I can deal with following its rules so I get substantial benefits from it. It's not about an image, because I care less about how people think of me; what I'm concerned about is being consistent.

**Daes** · 03-22-2011, 02:33 PM

I used to rationalize my decisions, but I've found that its effort wasted.

Now I do just because I can, not because I have any other extraneous reasoning which says I should.

**rbc** · 03-22-2011, 02:57 PM

	Originally Posted by coupdhaha To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	in this case, you really cared about your friend and his situation. For the select few INTJs care for, they care for dearly.

This is my feeling exactly. Given the choice, and a random stranger, I would rather push them in than save them. Certainly I will in no way risk myself unless I have a pre-existing investment in the person which is worth more to me than the risk I would undertake in such a rescue. Feeling sad for a good friend's loss is nothing remotely like taking a risk (or even merely exerting effort) for a total stranger. In fact, it makes a hell of a lot more sense.

	Originally Posted by Reddkatz To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I am sympathetic to my very close friends. I also am sympathetic to other things as well such as the Tsunami that happened in Japan.

I am only sympathetic to my very close friends. The suffering of strangers means absolutely nothing to me. I have trouble understanding how it can bother anyone.

	Originally Posted by Equinox To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I had told myself on past occasions that it was pointless to cry about situations that 1) don't involve me and 2) are beyond my control, but much to my surprise, I started tearing up after reading his message to me.

You are absolutely correct! The cause of the surprise is just that you failed to realize in advance that something which deeply involves someone you care about does involve you after all, albeit not as deeply.

**Reddkatz** · 03-22-2011, 02:58 PM

Well some rules are made to be broken; but other rules in regards to your safety I do follow. If there is a sign blocking a path because there is a cliff to fall from that says "do not enter" I'm not going there. But there are some people who are eternal risk takers. I will still call them stupid however.

**Shadizar** · 03-22-2011, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Equinox
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For instance, I've often convinced myself in the past that in the popular hypothetical where you pass by a pool that has a "no swimming" sign near it and see a person in it shouting for help and drowning, I would pass by because the sign clearly said "no swimming" and the person got in at their own risk. However, I think that despite my rationalizations, if I actually came across this situation, I would immediately help the person without even thinking about it.

I'd crouch by the pool near him and ask "if you can't swim, why are you in there with no lifeguard?" I figure, if he can carry a conversation, he doesn't need my help. If he truly is in trouble I'd try first to find a pole of some sort, so I can whack him one while I rescue him, the dumb shit. If there isn't one, I'll tell him to calm down so I can help him. If he doesn't calm down, I'll wait until he drowns, then go fish him out, and perform AR on him.

**manutdman** · 03-24-2011, 05:09 AM

We are not bloody robots devoid of emotion and human caring.

**Equinox** · 03-24-2011, 05:23 AM

	Originally Posted by manutdman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	We are not bloody robots devoid of emotion and human caring.

Maybe you don't feel that way, but I do
:O
And when I don't, I usually wish I did.

**Ultimawepun** · 03-24-2011, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by Equinox
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The reason why I follow all the rules put in front of me (unless they directly contradict my moral or religious beliefs) is because I decided long ago that it's easier to follow rules that you either agree with or feel neutral about rather than just "doing whatever" and hoping for the best. I made a commitment to upholding social order because I get a lot of personal gain from doing so, and having made that decision I intend to stick with it. I don't like society necessarily, but at least I can deal with following its rules so I get substantial benefits from it. It's not about an image, because I care less about how people think of me; what I'm concerned about is being consistent.

You never considered that you might actually care? I take back a bit about what I said on prematurity and now agree with coupdhaha; I think you're looking too narrowly here. You never thought that there might be exceptions?

	Originally Posted by Equinox To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Maybe you don't feel that way, but I do :O And when I don't, I usually wish I did.

Why? So you can make decisions more rationally? For personal gain?

**Uriel** · 03-24-2011, 06:59 AM

The reason why your Theory disagrees with Practice is because your theory did not properly factor in emotion. During a pensive/apathetic emotional state your actions would weigh heavily on logic. During an Urgent! Death! Help! emotional state your actions would lead towards altruism.

THEORY = Circumstance + Givens = Action

PRACTICE = Emotion(Circumstance + Givens) = Action

	Originally Posted by manutdman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	We are not bloody robots devoid of emotion and human caring.

	Originally Posted by Taryuna To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Seems to be one of those side effects of being human.

**Equinox** · 03-24-2011, 07:48 AM

	Originally Posted by Ultimawepun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You never considered that you might actually care?

No, and if I did consider that I might care I did my best to ignore it.


	Why? So you can make decisions more rationally? For personal gain?

Because I don't want to be influenced by emotion.

	Originally Posted by Uriel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The reason why your Theory disagrees with Practice is because your theory did not properly factor in emotion. During a pensive/apathetic emotional state your actions would weigh heavily on logic. During an Urgent! Death! Help! emotional state your actions would lead towards altruism.

That's pretty much how things work out for me in reality.

	Originally Posted by Taryuna To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Also, stereotypes be damned, we aren't robots.


	And occasionally, I actually am irrational, I guess. Seems to be one of those side effects of being human.

Which is why I hate being human. I'd rather be a robot and not be influenced by emotions.

**Ultimawepun** · 03-24-2011, 08:11 AM

	Originally Posted by Equinox To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Because I don't want to be influenced by emotion.

Just because of that? No personal gain whatsoever? Nothing behind it?

	Originally Posted by Equinox To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Which is why I hate being human. I'd rather be a robot and not be influenced by emotions.

You do realize that all motivations are instinctive? Logic alone is stagnant. It's literally like being a computer.

I'm getting confused. I thought at first you were a cynic having trouble handling his sympathy, which I'm absolutely okay with as I'm a cynic myself, but now, you're a human wishing to be a robot? Unless of course you're messing with me. Please let me be wrong.

**Equinox** · 03-24-2011, 08:53 AM

	Originally Posted by Ultimawepun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You do realize that all motivations are instinctive? Logic alone is stagnant. It's literally like being a computer. I'm getting confused. I thought at first you were a cynic having trouble handling his sympathy, which I'm absolutely okay with as I'm a cynic myself, but now, you're a human wishing to be a robot? Unless of course you're messing with me. Please let me be wrong.

No, you're right; I honestly wish I didn't have to be influenced by emotions. In my opinion, emotion is what sets us apart from all other life on the planet, but it's also what holds us back from attaining perfection. As long as we have emotions, we'll always do things that are less than optimal and be held back from perfect order and efficiency. I think that emotion (at least harmful or useless emotion) is an effect of original sin, in that it's what prevents humanity from transcending its current state and becoming something greater.

Also, I never mess with people, so unless I clearly indicate otherwise, I'm always serious about what I say. Unlike most INTJs I don't understand sarcasm, so if something I say seems sarcastic and doesn't have an emoticon next to it, take it as literally as possible.

**Autumnleaf** · 03-24-2011, 09:02 AM

I don't always follow rules, so a sign saying don't swim here may or may not keep me out depending on what I was up to. Even the best swimmers can get a cramp or have a heart attack or get bit by a snake so I would try to help.

I think since I've become cognizant of my quirks I've become more forgiving of those in others.

It is natural to feel sad about such a loss as your friend experienced.

03-22-2011, 05:27 AM	#1
Equinox Veteran Member [63%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 2,537	I've recently been thinking about something that happens a lot in my life and probably for others as well. Since we're INTJs, we tend to see the world from a cold, rational perspective and make plans according to our views. For instance, I've often convinced myself in the past that in the popular hypothetical where you pass by a pool that has a "no swimming" sign near it and see a person in it shouting for help and drowning, I would pass by because the sign clearly said "no swimming" and the person got in at their own risk. However, I think that despite my rationalizations, if I actually came across this situation, I would immediately help the person without even thinking about it. In a lot of other situations, I've "convinced" myself that I would act a certain way, but when it actually comes to pass, I do something altruistic or kind instead of cold and legalistic, and without thinking about what I've done until later. On the other hand, I also have the ability to convince myself to act a certain way in certain situations (generally not giving in to pressure or not doing something I shouldn't) and my conviction functions the way I want it to, producing the outcome I planned for. Can anyone give insight into this? Do you feel the same way--that the way we theorize about the world and our actions doesn't necessarily reflect how we act when push comes to shove? Do we do the "right thing" despite convincing ourselves that another way is more rational and correct? ---------- Post added 03-22-2011 at 08:30 AM ---------- I should add that the thing that prompted this happened yesterday. A good friend of mine informed me that his girlfriend had just passed away suddenly. He had planned to propose to her on Friday evening, but she got sick and was going to wait until she got better, but he never had the chance to tell her. I had told myself on past occasions that it was pointless to cry about situations that 1) don't involve me and 2) are beyond my control, but much to my surprise, I started tearing up after reading his message to me.
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03-22-2011, 08:01 AM	#2
coupdhaha Member [03%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 126	As they say, we've all got a heart underneath that steely exterior. I think for the most part you wouldn't be one of the sobs crying about anything and everything, but in this case, you really cared about your friend and his situation. For the select few INTJs care for, they care for dearly.
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03-22-2011, 08:17 AM	#3
Reddkatz Core Member [184%] MBTI: InTJ Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 7,385	I am sympathetic to my very close friends. I also am sympathetic to other things as well such as the Tsunami that happened in Japan. I usually do my part in helping like donating money to those disasters; or donating blood regularly things like that. I try to sympathize with other things as well, but as you said if there was a person drowning when there was a no swimming sign, I would say it was the person's fault. I am also this way when there are hikers that take paths that are clearly marked dangerous and then have to get rescued because they didn't pay attention to the signs. My home state started charging hikers that did that, which is a smart move.
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03-22-2011, 08:21 AM	#4
Equinox Veteran Member [63%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 2,537	OK, so you would say it's the person's fault...but (putting faith in rationalization aside) would you still help them if you could?
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03-22-2011, 08:27 AM	#6
Ultimawepun Member [06%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 265	Ever thought that you're deceiving yourself? It's nice to have integrity but don't just conclude on anything just for the sake of it. It's important to know what you truly want. I think your "theory" is premature really. I have been there.
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03-22-2011, 08:33 AM	#7
coupdhaha Member [03%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 126	I wouldn't say his theory is premature. I would say he didn't realize that all theories have exceptions.
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03-22-2011, 09:13 AM	#8
Equinox Veteran Member [63%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 2,537	If you mean the part about making up my mind and sticking with it, then the reason why I do that is because I want to. I wouldn't call it deceiving myself, simply making up my mind so that I'll hopefully do what I think is best without having reality intrude on my decision. It's kind of like making dinner on Sunday night and putting it on the freezer to reheat on Monday, rather than rushing to make dinner Monday night because you need to be somewhere in the near future. Isn't it better to make up your mind (more or less) in advance instead of being paralyzed by the urgency of a situation? If you tell yourself something enough, and want to believe it, you WILL believe it. Trust me, I've had a lot of success repressing aspects of myself that I don't like.
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03-22-2011, 10:47 AM	#12
Muse Veteran Member [84%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 3,392	Being an INTJ doesn't mean we let people drown in swimming pools. Especially not for some reasoning like 'its the rules'. Like i care. I wouldn't even think about the sign in a legalistic sense. The most i would consider about it, is that it could mean theres some sort of shock chemicals in the pool for maintenance, perhaps causing the swimmer to drown. Which would mean that i should save them with a pool skimming rod rather than jumping in too. It sounds like fun in a weird kind of way, fishing for people To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. As for why someone is in there, who really cares? Its not like the reason changes whats actually going on. People of skill do what is needed, not what is expected. Hear the call and answer loudly, thats how i live. I have been known to jump out of my car to pry people out of a wrecked vehicle, or help someone in a wheelchair who got stuck. Why? Well, why not?
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03-22-2011, 12:29 PM	#13
Equinox Veteran Member [63%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 2,537	The reason why I follow all the rules put in front of me (unless they directly contradict my moral or religious beliefs) is because I decided long ago that it's easier to follow rules that you either agree with or feel neutral about rather than just "doing whatever" and hoping for the best. I made a commitment to upholding social order because I get a lot of personal gain from doing so, and having made that decision I intend to stick with it. I don't like society necessarily, but at least I can deal with following its rules so I get substantial benefits from it. It's not about an image, because I care less about how people think of me; what I'm concerned about is being consistent.
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03-22-2011, 02:33 PM	#14
Daes Member [05%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 216	I used to rationalize my decisions, but I've found that its effort wasted. Now I do just because I can, not because I have any other extraneous reasoning which says I should.
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03-22-2011, 02:58 PM	#16
Reddkatz Core Member [184%] MBTI: InTJ Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 7,385	Well some rules are made to be broken; but other rules in regards to your safety I do follow. If there is a sign blocking a path because there is a cliff to fall from that says "do not enter" I'm not going there. But there are some people who are eternal risk takers. I will still call them stupid however.
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03-24-2011, 05:09 AM	#18
manutdman Member [02%] MBTI: IxTJ Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 107	We are not bloody robots devoid of emotion and human caring.
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03-24-2011, 09:02 AM	#25
Autumnleaf Core Member [227%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 9,097	I don't always follow rules, so a sign saying don't swim here may or may not keep me out depending on what I was up to. Even the best swimmers can get a cramp or have a heart attack or get bit by a snake so I would try to help. I think since I've become cognizant of my quirks I've become more forgiving of those in others. It is natural to feel sad about such a loss as your friend experienced.
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