[Kmal]

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	Tripoli, Libya (CNN) -- French fighter jets soared over Libya on Saturday to counter Moammar Gadhafi's military forces who were intent on destroying the opposition as they pushed into the rebel stronghold of Benghazi.

Interesting. What do you think the implications of this is?

[froyo]

Well, this is all has to do with the no-fly zone the UN just established over Libya. It's the next step in intervention. It's still a relatively mild form of intervention so I don't think the impact is going to be great. Any more extreme methods will have larger consequences.

[RBM]

Aljazeera is reporting a French fighter destroying it's target. 'Rules of Engagement' aren't apparently in the public domain, at this time.

[HAL 9000]

Reminds me of that old Saturday Night Live sketch with Horatio Sanz.

[Savagelight]

	Originally Posted by Kmal To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Interesting. What do you think the implications of this is?

Support President Obama. Oppose Gaddafi. Gaddafi must be stopped.

[JonD]

I think Gaddafi will get bombed to hell until he gives up. He simply doesn't have the firepower to match the UN. At the moment, I've only heard the French fighters are deployed, but if necessary the other countries who attended the summit today (Italy, Canada, USA) will start deploying too.

Right now they are focusing on Libya's armaments, specifically their air missile defense command. (I'm watching the live Pentagon press conference at the moment)

If Gaddafi is anything like Saddam in Gulf War I, he's a strong-armed dictator who will buckle when the world gets crossed at what he's doing.

[Feral]

And now we're shooting at them, too.

But hey, at least Obama is still... their son?!
Dun dun duuuuunnnn

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[SarcasticVlad]

So Gaddafi is the next Saddam. I don't believe any side of the story here. I don't believe the media when they say the situation in Libya is as bad as they claim and I don't believe Gaddafi when he says that it isn't. I am against the external aggression though. It's a civil war. Let them kill each other in peace. I doubt UN would interfere if something like this happened in, let's say Italy or some other developed European country. Maybe they would interfere, but they wouldn't support the rebels, they would support the government. Every country has the right to deal with rebels who threaten it's regime.

[JonD]

	Originally Posted by SarcasticVlad To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Every country has the right to deal with rebels who threaten it's regime.

I suppose by 'deal with', you mean ruthlessly massacre. I'm sure that kind of bluntness wouldn't help your argument, though.

[Commissar]

Originally Posted by SarcasticVlad To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

So Gaddafi is the next Saddam. I don't believe any side of the story here. I don't believe the media when they say the situation in Libya is as bad as they claim and I don't believe Gaddafi when he says that it isn't. I am against the external aggression though. It's a civil war. Let them kill each other in peace. I doubt UN would interfere if something like this happened in, let's say Italy or some other developed European country. Maybe they would interfere, but they wouldn't support the rebels, they would support the government. Every country has the right to deal with rebels who threaten it's regime.

It's not a civil war, it's genocide. The military is and has been killing unarmed civilians by the hundreds. Big difference there...

[SarcasticVlad]

	Originally Posted by JonD To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I suppose by 'deal with', you mean ruthlessly massacre. I'm sure that kind of bluntness wouldn't help your argument, though.

I don't care what they do if they do anything at all. I'm not taking sides. I don't care who wins, Gaddafi or the rebels. I'm just saying that it's their business. And if UN is involved you can bet your ass they have some kind of personal interest in all that. They aren't doing it for the rebels out of kindness of their hearts. And as soon as they accomplish what they really wanted they will leave those people to rot. They did a really good job in Rwanda didn't they?!

[Savagelight]

Originally Posted by JonD To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think Gaddafi will get bombed to hell until he gives up. He simply doesn't have the firepower to match the UN. At the moment, I've only heard the French fighters are deployed, but if necessary the other countries who attended the summit today (Italy, Canada, USA) will start deploying too. Right now they are focusing on Libya's armaments, specifically their air missile defense command. (I'm watching the live Pentagon press conference at the moment) If Gaddafi is anything like Saddam in Gulf War I, he's a strong-armed dictator who will buckle when the world gets crossed at what he's doing.

It's a war. And unlike Iraq it's actually a war that makes sense. Support the US effort to dethrone Gaddafi.

[Holiman]

Why? It is none of our business. The entire middle east should be left alone the US should never be an empire. We dont know who is doing what and who might replace the present regime. The US is further destablizing the middle east that they have already destablized into chaos.

How long till we realize we have no exit strategy for Libya ?

[IslandHead]

	Originally Posted by Holiman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why? It is none of our business. The entire middle east should be left alone the US should never be an empire. We dont know who is doing what and who might replace the present regime. The US is further destablizing the middle east that they have already destablized into chaos. How long till we realize we have no exit strategy for Libya ?

It was mandated action by the UN Security Council, this is different from Iraq and Afghanistan. The action is backed by France, China, US, Britain, and Russia, plus who ever is the temp. members... This is far less empire building than those endeavors. Plus, the Libyans don't want foreign troops, so nobody will need to exist cause they probably won't be any feet on the ground there.


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[HIDE="Important Parts"]“1. Demands the immediate establishment of a ceasefire and a complete end to violence and all attacks against, and abuses of, civilians;

“2. Stresses the need to intensify efforts to find a solution to the crisis which responds to the legitimate demands of the Libyan people and notes the decisions of the Secretary-General to send his Special Envoy to Libya and of the Peace and Security Council of the African Union to send its ad hoc High-Level Committee to Libya with the aim of facilitating dialogue to lead to the political reforms necessary to find a peaceful and sustainable solution;

“3. Demands that the Libyan authorities comply with their obligations under international law, including international humanitarian law, human rights and refugee law and take all measures to protect civilians and meet their basic needs, and to ensure the rapid and unimpeded passage of humanitarian assistance;

“Protection of civilians

“4. Authorizes Member States that have notified the Secretary-General, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, and acting in cooperation with the Secretary-General, to take all necessary measures, notwithstanding paragraph 9 of resolution 1970 (2011), to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory, and requests the Member States concerned to inform the Secretary-General immediately of the measures they take pursuant to the authorization conferred by this paragraph which shall be immediately reported to the Security Council;

“5. Recognizes the important role of the League of Arab States in matters relating to the maintenance of international peace and security in the region, and bearing in mind Chapter VIII of the Charter of the United Nations, requests the Member States of the League of Arab States to cooperate with other Member States in the implementation of paragraph 4;

“No-fly zone

“6. Decides to establish a ban on all flights in the airspace of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya in order to help protect civilians;

“7. Decides further that the ban imposed by paragraph 6 shall not apply to flights whose sole purpose is humanitarian, such as delivering or facilitating the delivery of assistance, including medical supplies, food, humanitarian workers and related assistance, or evacuating foreign nationals from the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, nor shall it apply to flights authorised by paragraphs 4 or 8, nor other flights which are deemed necessary by States acting under the authorization conferred in paragraph 8 to be for the benefit of the Libyan people, and that these flights shall be coordinated with any mechanism established under paragraph 8;

“8. Authorizes Member States that have notified the Secretary-General and the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, to take all necessary measures to enforce compliance with the ban on flights imposed by paragraph 6 above, as necessary, and requests the States concerned in cooperation with the League of Arab States to coordinate closely with the Secretary General on the measures they are taking to implement this ban, including by establishing an appropriate mechanism for implementing the provisions of paragraphs 6 and 7 above,

“9. Calls upon all Member States, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, to provide assistance, including any necessary overflight approvals, for the purposes of implementing paragraphs 4, 6, 7 and 8 above;

“10. Requests the Member States concerned to coordinate closely with each other and the Secretary-General on the measures they are taking to implement paragraphs 4, 6, 7 and 8 above, including practical measures for the monitoring and approval of authorised humanitarian or evacuation flights;

“11. Decides that the Member States concerned shall inform the Secretary-General and the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States immediately of measures taken in exercise of the authority conferred by paragraph 8 above, including to supply a concept of operations;

“12. Requests the Secretary-General to inform the Council immediately of any actions taken by the Member States concerned in exercise of the authority conferred by paragraph 8 above and to report to the Council within 7 days and every month thereafter on the implementation of this resolution, including information on any violations of the flight ban imposed by paragraph 6 above;

“Enforcement of the arms embargo

“13. Decides that paragraph 11 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall be replaced by the following paragraph : “Calls upon all Member States, in particular States of the region, acting nationally or through regional organisations or arrangements, in order to ensure strict implementation of the arms embargo established by paragraphs 9 and 10 of resolution 1970 (2011), to inspect in their territory, including seaports and airports, and on the high seas, vessels and aircraft bound to or from the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, if the State concerned has information that provides reasonable grounds to believe that the cargo contains items the supply, sale, transfer or export of which is prohibited by paragraphs 9 or 10 of resolution 1970 (2011) as modified by this resolution, including the provision of armed mercenary personnel, calls upon all flag States of such vessels and aircraft to cooperate with such inspections and authorises Member States to use all measures commensurate to the specific circumstances to carry out such inspections”;

“14. Requests Member States which are taking action under paragraph 13 above on the high seas to coordinate closely with each other and the Secretary-General and further requests the States concerned to inform the Secretary-General and the Committee established pursuant to paragraph 24 of resolution 1970 (2011) (“the Committee”) immediately of measures taken in the exercise of the authority conferred by paragraph 13 above;

“15. Requires any Member State whether acting nationally or through regional organisations or arrangements, when it undertakes an inspection pursuant to paragraph 13 above, to submit promptly an initial written report to the Committee containing, in particular, explanation of the grounds for the inspection, the results of such inspection, and whether or not cooperation was provided, and, if prohibited items for transfer are found, further requires such Member States to submit to the Committee, at a later stage, a subsequent written report containing relevant details on the inspection, seizure, and disposal, and relevant details of the transfer, including a description of the items, their origin and intended destination, if this information is not in the initial report;

“16. Deplores the continuing flows of mercenaries into the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya and calls upon all Member States to comply strictly with their obligations under paragraph 9 of resolution 1970 (2011) to prevent the provision of armed mercenary personnel to the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya;

“Ban on flights

“17. Decides that all States shall deny permission to any aircraft registered in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya or owned or operated by Libyan nationals or companies to take off from, land in or overfly their territory unless the particular flight has been approved in advance by the Committee, or in the case of an emergency landing;

“18. Decides that all States shall deny permission to any aircraft to take off from, land in or overfly their territory, if they have information that provides reasonable grounds to believe that the aircraft contains items the supply, sale, transfer, or export of which is prohibited by paragraphs 9 and 10 of resolution 1970 (2011) as modified by this resolution, including the provision of armed mercenary personnel, except in the case of an emergency landing;

“Asset freeze

“19. Decides that the asset freeze imposed by paragraph 17, 19, 20 and 21 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall apply to all funds, other financial assets and economic resources which are on their territories, which are owned or controlled, directly or indirectly, by the Libyan authorities, as designated by the Committee, or by individuals or entities acting on their behalf or at their direction, or by entities owned or controlled by them, as designated by the Committee, and decides further that all States shall ensure that any funds, financial assets or economic resources are prevented from being made available by their nationals or by any individuals or entities within their territories, to or for the benefit of the Libyan authorities, as designated by the Committee, or individuals or entities acting on their behalf or at their direction, or entities owned or controlled by them, as designated by the Committee, and directs the Committee to designate such Libyan authorities, individuals or entities within 30 days of the date of the adoption of this resolution and as appropriate thereafter;

“20. Affirms its determination to ensure that assets frozen pursuant to paragraph 17 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall, at a later stage, as soon as possible be made available to and for the benefit of the people of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya;

“21. Decides that all States shall require their nationals, persons subject to their jurisdiction and firms incorporated in their territory or subject to their jurisdiction to exercise vigilance when doing business with entities incorporated in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya or subject to its jurisdiction, and any individuals or entities acting on their behalf or at their direction, and entities owned or controlled by them, if the States have information that provides reasonable grounds to believe that such business could contribute to violence and use of force against civilians;

“Designations

“22. Decides that the individuals listed in Annex I shall be subject to the travel restrictions imposed in paragraphs 15 and 16 of resolution 1970 (2011), and decides further that the individuals and entities listed in Annex II shall be subject to the asset freeze imposed in paragraphs 17, 19, 20 and 21 of resolution 1970 (2011);

“23. Decides that the measures specified in paragraphs 15, 16, 17, 19, 20 and 21 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall apply also to individuals and entities determined by the Council or the Committee to have violated the provisions of resolution 1970 (2011), particularly paragraphs 9 and 10 thereof, or to have assisted others in doing so;

“Panel of Experts

“24. Requests the Secretary-General to create for an initial period of one year, in consultation with the Committee, a group of up to eight experts (“Panel of Experts”), under the direction of the Committee to carry out the following tasks:

(a) Assist the Committee in carrying out its mandate as specified in paragraph 24 of resolution 1970 (2011) and this resolution;

(b) Gather, examine and analyse information from States, relevant United Nations bodies, regional organisations and other interested parties regarding the implementation of the measures decided in resolution 1970 (2011) and this resolution, in particular incidents of non-compliance;

(c) Make recommendations on actions the Council, or the Committee or State, may consider to improve implementation of the relevant measures;

(d) Provide to the Council an interim report on its work no later than 90 days after the Panel’s appointment, and a final report to the Council no later than 30 days prior to the termination of its mandate with its findings and recommendations;

“25. Urges all States, relevant United Nations bodies and other interested parties, to cooperate fully with the Committee and the Panel of Experts, in particular by supplying any information at their disposal on the implementation of the measures decided in resolution 1970 (2011) and this resolution, in particular incidents of non-compliance;

“26. Decides that the mandate of the Committee as set out in paragraph 24 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall also apply to the measures decided in this resolution;

“27. Decides that all States, including the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, shall take the necessary measures to ensure that no claim shall lie at the instance of the Libyan authorities, or of any person or body in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, or of any person claiming through or for the benefit of any such person or body, in connection with any contract or other transaction where its performance was affected by reason of the measures taken by the Security Council in resolution 1970 (2011), this resolution and related resolutions;

“28. Reaffirms its intention to keep the actions of the Libyan authorities under continuous review and underlines its readiness to review at any time the measures imposed by this resolution and resolution 1970 (2011), including by strengthening, suspending or lifting those measures, as appropriate, based on compliance by the Libyan authorities with this resolution and resolution 1970 (2011);

“29. Decides to remain actively seized of the matter.”[/HIDE]

I also would like to add that I probably couldn't find a document in 30 seconds (on the day it was issued) on the internet to describe the objectives and limitations of Operation Iraqi Freedom or the War on Terror or what ever it was called.

[Holiman]

Ok lets pretend the UN isnt a rubber stamp to US interests, and lets pretend there were no UN resolutions in regards to Iraq and Afghanistan. France China Britain and Russia can handle this without the US. The US is nearing the brink of financial meltdown, we cannot afford a 3rd war at this time. Iraq started as a NO fly zone so lets not pretend we walk away after downing a plane or two.

Im not talking about politics this is simple common sense. Supporting the taliban against the USSR invasion was a bad idea, how many more can the US afford?

[IslandHead]

Originally Posted by Holiman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Ok lets pretend the UN isnt a rubber stamp to US interests, and lets pretend there were no UN resolutions in regards to Iraq and Afghanistan. France China Britain and Russia can handle this without the US. The US is nearing the brink of financial meltdown, we cannot afford a 3rd war at this time. Iraq started as a NO fly zone so lets not pretend we walk away after downing a plane or two. Im not talking about politics this is simple common sense. Supporting the taliban against the USSR invasion was a bad idea, how many more can the US afford?

The premise for entering Iraw was WMD. Those were never found, nor existed.
The premise for the no-fly zone is to protect civilians.

I do agree that it is foolish for the US to start a third war, and to have an expanded military presence in the world, for it it not sustainable. However, I think the UN and it's members should try to uphold international laws, and basic humans rights on a global scale. This shouldn't be a burden for the US alone, but something shared between UN members.



Also I would like to correct some of my facts. Russia and China abstained from voting, but weren't fully opposed.

[tp6626]

I guess when the US is in financial difficulties, TEAM AMERICA: WORLD POLICE decide to take a back seat!? :S

[Nemesis]

Granted, Ghaddafi needs to be ousted. No question there. I'm not sure having the western world ramming it's nose into the middle-east's business is a good idea, though. Historically, it's a terrible solution to getting rid of hostile dictators. That being said, somebody needs to stop this lunatic fast. It's unfortunate that the Libyan people were not able to muster up enough force to take Ghadaffi out (like the Egyptians just did). I'm curious to see how this all ends up playing out.

	Originally Posted by tp6626 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I guess when the US is in financial difficulties, TEAM AMERICA: WORLD POLICE decide to take a back seat!? :S

It's okay, everybody stand back, we got this one, eh! Just buy us a couple cases of beer and we're cool, k.


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---------- Post added 03-20-2011 at 02:53 AM ----------


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Diplomacy works quickly!

[HIDE="wow"]
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[/HIDE]

[Foxodi]

	Originally Posted by Holiman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ok lets pretend the UN isnt a rubber stamp to US interests

A rubber stamp where russia and china has veto powers? Thats a pretty faulty rubber stamp (though I get what you mean). I think its somewhat a miracle that russia and china didn't veto the resolution, but then I guess they'd be held responsible by the international community for the genocide in libya and that rep damage would outweigh any potential benefits from vetoing.

	Originally Posted by Holiman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	we cannot afford a 3rd war at this time.

which is the exact reason why the US is gonna shoot some missiles for a few days, then just provide logistics and let everyone else do the heavy lifting this time.

	Iraq started as a NO fly zone so lets not pretend we walk away after downing a plane or two.

No it didn't :/ if it did it would be because a noflyzone is the first step in the military handbook in how to win wars.

	Originally Posted by Nemesis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm not sure having the western world ramming it's nose into the middle-east's business is a good idea, though.

The US doesn't think its a good idea either (apparently they CAN learn from past mistakes), which is why they waited until the Arab League came out asking for this, so now they can spin an arab face to it (even though so far we've had no concrete offerings of military assistance from them...)

	It's unfortunate that the Libyan people were not able to muster up enough force to take Ghadaffi out (like the Egyptians just did).

Militaries tend to out-arm citizens... the Egyptians got lucky because the military ultimately caved into the demands instead of going the all-out crackdown approach. Granted having mandatory military service is a great way to ensure the military doesn't go on internal rampages.

[LaoTzu]

They keep pumping this "they're saving civillians" meme....

Civillians, (as I have traditionally thought of them); don't shoot at you with AK's and RPG's.

Picking sides in a "civil war" is a declaration of war, and I think I'll agree that this isn't a good idea. They claim broad international support, but you might dig deeper and find it's only 10 countries that are supporting this NATO operation.

If we remember Yugoslavia; it wasn't until NATO started bombing, that the ethnic cleansing began.......


I just watched an ABC news report titled "
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", and all it gave was a couple of names, but no background on even those names..... To me that sounds like a "the less you know" kind of thing....

[coupdhaha]

I wonder if the French, British, Americans, etc see this as all a big training exercise. I mean you can only do so much in war games.

[Holiman]

	Originally Posted by Foxodi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No it didn't :/ if it did it would be because a noflyzone is the first step in the military handbook in how to win wars.

Let me be honest, its not easy to say exactly when the conflict started with Iraq. I was speaking about the no fly zone we kept over iraq for 10 years after the Kuwait conflict and enforced until the invasion of Iraq. My point being we had no exit strategy then nor will we with Libya.

[SarcasticVlad]

	Originally Posted by LaoTzu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If we remember Yugoslavia; it wasn't until NATO started bombing, that the ethnic cleansing began.......

Remember how UN Security Council didn't actually give the permission for the attack on Yugoslavia? Does anyone think their permission matters at all? Does anyone actually think these countries wouldn't have attacked Libya if they didn't get a permission?

Powerful countries do what they want. Especially if they're backed by America.