[parasquid]

Hello everyone, been browsing through the forums for quite some time now and just decided to register (both to start contributing as well as getting some help).

So there's this ENTP that caught my fancy and, being out of a relationship for almost a year now, decided that I should really get myself back into dating. I initially guessed she was an ENTP, and had it confirmed when I got her to take an MBTI test (the one from human metrics - not sure if that generates accurate results).

I finally got the courage to ask her out on a Michael Buble concert (I know she likes Michael Buble) but when I asked her, she initially refused, asking me why I had to do it as the tickets were very expensive (converted into USD, it's around $100 which is somewhat luxurious in this country). I answered, "it's a Michael Buble concert. You don't ask why, you just go." This apparently closed the deal as I said it's getting late and I really have to go, and it's been almost a week since that time, and no refusals from her. Admittedly, I haven't confirmed if the concert was a go (or if she even thinks if it's a date).

I think I might have gone overboard with this first date (we've known each other as acquaintances for about two months now). Do you suppose she might think I'm trying to "buy" her company? Would she feel "obligated" in return because I paid for the concert tickets? I know she wouldn't be able to afford the ticket, so going dutch isn't really possible.

We meet each other about twice to three times a week in Salsa class (she's the salsa instructor, I'm the student, but I'm older than her by about 4 years) so no problems with keeping connections there (except that sometimes I really have to try and keep the atmosphere professional, because I think some of my classmates might get leery if I start flirting with her during class). We do "hang-out" with her close friends after class for snacks and some talk, but it hasn't been that often that I talk with her alone (only the times when I'm in her car when she's driving me to the taxi stand - I know, embarassing, but I'm an expat and hasn't yet bought a car nor have a license; this country drives on the wrong side of the road unlike the more rational ones that drive on the left
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)

I'm assuming that the first date will be good; I have no problems with holding a witty, funny and spontaneous conversation. My real concern is going for that second date and if she would be amenable to it.

Thanks for reading through my wall of text
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[Zilal]

Heh... what can we tell you but ask her and see?

I'm happy for you, though. It sounds like there's some potential.

[marlique]

Yeah, she might be intimidated by the cost of the tickets. I don't really know what to suggest except to say you saw he was in town, and you immediately thought of her because you know she likes him, and you couldn't resist because, hey, you only have one life to live. Right? ENTPs love having fun, they understand the concept of going with the flow and enjoying life very well. I'm sure this could be enough to convince her.

[SShack]

ENTPs have an independent streak pretty much like other NTs so there is probably a bit of an issue that she wants to be on even footing with you. If the first date goes well, maybe encourage her to arrange the second date to something more of her fiscal speed so she doesn't feel like she's being wooed like some princess from a movie (which she probably wouldn't like).

EDIT: It's important NOT to tell her that you want to do this because she doesn't have money because it will put her on the defensive. The idea here is to give her some control and make it feel like an "even" thing. ENTPs look for partners in the dating pool, not unlike INTJs.

[parasquid]

Funny you mention about getting wooed. During one of the hang-outs after class, the topic went into dating and relationships, and the question on the table was on what modern dating has evolved to. The married guy said that nowadays, it's perfectly alright for women to ask out men, but she then replies that it still feels good to have the man make the first move.

Just recently she called and told me she's considering me to be part of her performing group. I'm guessing she's trying to get "even" with me by offering me a spot (I'm a beginner at salsa, but spent many years as a ballroom dancer so I guess the skillsets transfer).

The concert will be in two weeks' time, so I'm a bit concerned with how to spend the time intervening. I've already got some leads open (like helping her setup her studio's website).

I definitely won't tell her that I'm doing this because she doesn't have money (not my intention at all) but thanks for reminding me that I might need to make that a bit clearer. But how do I encourage her to arrange the second date? Do I frame it as some sort of a challenge (hey, now it's your turn to take me somewhere interesting)? Won't that make her try and "top" my initial offer?

Again, I apologize if I have too many questions. Haven't really been dating in the last year, and everything's really rusty. Plus my tendency to get everything according to plan (even contingencies) sometimes get the better of me. Won't it be dandy if you can have all the answers beforehand? Boring I know, but it also takes away the anxiety of uncertainty.

[SShack]

	But how do I encourage her to arrange the second date? Do I frame it as some sort of a challenge (hey, now it's your turn to take me somewhere interesting)? Won't that make her try and "top" my initial offer?

Yes, you will, but that's not necessarily a bad thing to do to an ENTP. There are other ways to "top" a date besides a cost-comparison. ENTPs love a good challenge, usually. She might surprise you with a date that puts yours to shame but costs half as much.

[parasquid]

I guess my only problem now is to make the first date so awesome she'd be likely to suggest another one.

[Elfrun]

I find generally when a bright young INTJ is amour'd with an ENTP, they turn out to have snagged an ENFP... so don't get caught up on type
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[parasquid]

Well, the ENTP just rejected me.

She told me about the tickets, and said she's been thinking about it, and she had to refuse. She says that she's sure I can find someone else to bring to the concert.

Then she retracts her offer to add me as part of the performing team.

Then she hands me back my umbrella (which for the last few weeks she had allowed me to keep inside the studio).

Then when I was leaving she gave me back the book I lent her.

All this at the day when my class enrollment tuition ends. It's like her telling me subtly "I don't want to see you in my studio ever again."

True to the INTJ fashion, I'm still mulling over whatever I did that was wrong, or whatever did I miss. I _thought_ all the buying signals were there - the eye contact, accidental finger and leg brushings (and keeping them in contact for more than 15 secs), laughing at jokes, etc. And though my "F" is not that high, I actually _felt_ there was something going on.

Yet another proof that women are very hard to understand.

I'm not one to play games, so after I left I just sms'd her that I'm sorry it didn't work out between the two of us, that she was a great person, and that I'm saying goodbye. No replies yet, and I'm not expecting any anyway.

I'm writing this one off as a lesson to learn; in my experience there have always been other people to fancy after a rejection and that you never really look at that person the same way after a few months (what in her did I ever get attracted to?) but still, that's in the future and the pangs of the present are still painful.

So, any suggestions how to proceed?

[OJIScudbone]

Live and forget. There are thousands of other women that you can be compatible with, that are worth the time and effort.

Maybe she thought you came on too strong. You said you haven't had any real alone time with her, and a concert is similar to a movie date. It's not personal.

[AnaK]

I'm sorry things didn't work out. Is it possible you were reading the signs correctly and she was interested, but something changed her mind? Or maybe, since she is the dance instructor, she has to be very friendly as part of her job?

[parasquid]

Oh, she is _really_ friendly, almost as if feeding on the attention people give her.

Which is why I thought we had chemistry, because she doesn't do her normal "act" around me. There's more eye contact, more smiling, more body alignment, more time spent in a "bubble" conversation (as if other people don't exist). Plus, whenever she "shows off" we'd make eye-contact; and I know it was more frequently me than others coz I tried to be sensitive about that (INTJ observation skills can come in pretty handy).

I thought the concert was personal - Buble was one of her favorite singers after all. And I chose that so that it won't come on too strong, since the last time I subtly asked her if we can meet up for lunch to discuss some idea of mine, she mentioned "I'm not too sure about meeting up." We did get into a 30 minute phone conversation the next day though.

Another thing, she kept mentioning she was single and that, like I mentioned, would prefer that the guy make the first move. I kept thinking these were hints to me to make _my_ move, since there wasn't really anyone else in those conversations that were applicable (either too old, or already married).

I'm still thinking where did everything go so horribly wrong.

[AnaK]

I think something may have changed her mind. Did her behavior change abruptly at a certain point? Was it when you asked her out? I can see why you'd want to understand what happened, it helps with closure.

I know, I can seem to change abruptly, but usually something has been building and I'm just keeping it to myself. About giving the book and umbrella back, maybe she wasn't sure if you would sign up for another class or ever want to see her again. I think it is natural for her to give your stuff back at the end of the class. Also, I've frozen up when things have moved too fast before.

[catzmeow]

	Originally Posted by parasquid To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	True to the INTJ fashion, I'm still mulling over whatever I did that was wrong, or whatever did I miss. I _thought_ all the buying signals were there - the eye contact, accidental finger and leg brushings (and keeping them in contact for more than 15 secs), laughing at jokes, etc. And though my "F" is not that high, I actually _felt_ there was something going on.

There may well have been something going on. It's very likely that this had nothing, at all, to do with you. She may have been dating someone else, maybe she reconnected with a former boyfriend, maybe she had something happen in real life. Not everything is about something you did or didn't do. It is entirely likely that this had something to do with other factors in her life.

IN other words, don't take it personally, and move on. And no, I would not go so far as interpreting it as, "I don't want you in my studio." Just take it for what it was (a refusal to date you) and don't extrapolate from the data you have without facts.

[parasquid]

I feel more like she's actually prepared the whole thing before hand.

I can't say if her behavior changed at some point. The last time we met was two days ago during a farewell party for one of her friends. I felt there was connection there as well, as I couldn't count the number of times we locked eyes together, as if she were searching for me.

I don't think she wasn't sure that I would see her again, since she did invite me before to her performing group, even if I were just a beginner. I actually thought that was a subtle hint for me that she's manufacturing circumstances where we'd naturally see each other (or maybe it's just me and my imaginative mind; I'd totally do stuff like that if the roles were reversed).

Thanks for the input (I'm guessing you're a woman?) I never thought about "moving too fast" before. It could be that; I asked her out last week. I probably gave her too much time to think about things (or maybe that's fortunate, since if she didn't really think of me like that, the date would have been disastrous).

If something did change her mind, I'd love to know about it. Unfortunately I think I've cut off any possible friendly communications with her with my last sms (still pounding myself for not having told her the message directly in person - ah well, you live and learn). Which is why I really appreciate your input
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[roninpro]

Originally Posted by parasquid To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Oh, she is _really_ friendly, almost as if feeding on the attention people give her. Which is why I thought we had chemistry, because she doesn't do her normal "act" around me. There's more eye contact, more smiling, more body alignment, more time spent in a "bubble" conversation (as if other people don't exist). Plus, whenever she "shows off" we'd make eye-contact; and I know it was more frequently me than others coz I tried to be sensitive about that (INTJ observation skills can come in pretty handy). I thought the concert was personal - Buble was one of her favorite singers after all. And I chose that so that it won't come on too strong, since the last time I subtly asked her if we can meet up for lunch to discuss some idea of mine, she mentioned "I'm not too sure about meeting up." We did get into a 30 minute phone conversation the next day though. Another thing, she kept mentioning she was single and that, like I mentioned, would prefer that the guy make the first move. I kept thinking these were hints to me to make _my_ move, since there wasn't really anyone else in those conversations that were applicable (either too old, or already married).

I think that I could have taken the situation the same way as you. But maybe I've gotten very pessimistic these days - whenever I meet such a person, I just write off her behaviour and assume that she is just being very friendly. I really can't understand these things.

[SShack]

Sorry it didn't work out, bud. It does seem a bit odd. Maybe she changed her mind, or maybe your intuition led you astray, overanalyzing her behavior.

[parasquid]

Originally Posted by catzmeow To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

There may well have been something going on. It's very likely that this had nothing, at all, to do with you. She may have been dating someone else, maybe she reconnected with a former boyfriend, maybe she had something happen in real life. Not everything is about something you did or didn't do. It is entirely likely that this had something to do with other factors in her life. IN other words, don't take it personally, and move on. And no, I would not go so far as interpreting it as, "I don't want you in my studio." Just take it for what it was (a refusal to date you) and don't extrapolate from the data you have without facts.

Thanks
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I need to get reminded sometimes that the world does not spin at my behest.

It's just that whenever I am invested in something (a possible relationship, my work, a project) the outcome will always be a reflection of my efforts, no matter how many external and uncontrollable variables there may be. The fact that I undertook it means I was confident I can get a success out of it. It's that high expectations that cause me to sometimes get really disenchanted.

Even with prior experience with moving on (and knowing that it happens eventually), making myself do it at this point in time is really difficult. So I'm spending time here trying to squeeze out every bit of learning I can from this
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---------- Post added 03-01-2011 at 01:09 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by SShack To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Sorry it didn't work out, bud. It does seem a bit odd. Maybe she changed her mind, or maybe your intuition led you astray, overanalyzing her behavior.

Over-analyzing, I am guilty of, but if her behavior fit past concrete and theorized patterns that say "I like you too," how could have it led me astray?

I did feel it was a bit odd. She probably did just change her mind (although as to why, I probably would never know). The ball's in her court now; I'm not expecting her to explain anything, but I'm open for a conversation if she ever decides she was mistaken.

[AnaK]

At work, after we finish a project, most companies will require you do a "lessons learned" analysis, even on successful projects. I think taking a few days to understand the situation could be a good thing. I think she was either carelessly flirting and didn't realize she had gotten carried away, or something changed her mind. I recently had a crush on a guy, but it ended somewhat abruptly. I stopped seeing him a kind and supportive and started seeing him as cold and distant and too much work. You clearly weren't cold, but maybe something changed her mind? Or like Catzmeow said, she got in touch with an old boyfriend or met someone else.

[parasquid]

I probably were cold, now that I think about it. We first met 10 weeks ago, and I somewhat can feel that she's a bit interested (holding my gaze a lot longer, placing her cellphone on top of mine when there's a lot of other places she can put it on, asking for my number). I kinda wrote her off as just being friendly and just ... waited for a good opportunity. That's definitely a lesson learned - no such thing as waiting for an opportunity, only wasting an opportunity.

I'd have to admit that the salsa lessons I enrolled in were of two-fold purpose: I really wanted to learn salsa, and I thought it was time for me to start dating again and she really did catch my fancy (I'm a sucker for dancers). I still keep thinking, what if I'd asked her out earlier?

I don't like nor play games, but I can see that my uncertainty during this time might have caused her to think, rethink, and perhaps write me off.

[AnaK]

I could be wrong, and I don't want to generalize, but it seems to me that INTJs do the easing into relationships in their head. Some people slowly go from being friendly to maybe going for coffee, then lunch, then something in the evening in a gradual process. I wonder if some INTJs do all of this observing in their heads, and then dive head first into a relationship. They went through a gradual process, in their head. They observed and got to know the person and decided to go for it. But, they didn't give the other person anything to observe, so the other person is not ready to dive in head first, they want to go for coffee.

[parasquid]

Originally Posted by AnaK To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I could be wrong, and I don't want to generalize, but it seems to me that INTJs do the easing into relationships in their head. Some people slowly go from being friendly to maybe going for coffee, then lunch, then something in the evening in a gradual process. I wonder if some INTJs do all of this observing in their heads, and then dive head first into a relationship. They went through a gradual process, in their head. They observed and got to know the person and decided to go for it. But, they didn't give the other person anything to observe, so the other person is not ready to dive in head first, they want to go for coffee.

You are most probably correct here, at least in my case; I actually had a whole map/schedule of a possible relationship in my head (next up was to be a Bruno Mars concert, then a wakeboarding date).

Thanks for the insight. I thought we already got to know each other during the after class talks and intermittent get-together parties. Nothing one-on-one though. I'll keep that in mind for next time.

---------- Post added 03-02-2011 at 12:13 AM ----------

Got a reply from her through sms. She said she read my message and "gave it a deep thought" (again, that "thinking" word of hers I kept noticing she used a lot when she told me she doesn't want to go to the concert). She says she didn't want to lose me as a student and that there is so much potential in me, and not in such a trivial matter.

I was kinda offended by her telling me it was a trivial matter (for her maybe, but not for me as it is a very calculated risk I took).

I'm not a masochist and I know it will only be painful and awkward for me if I continue attending her classes, so I politely declined and said that if she ever changes her mind, just call me and we can talk over coffee.

Looks like I just completely misread her. Didn't realize I was _just_ a student with potential for her (I already knew I had potential; there are very few things I do that I'm not good at). But I guess this is as definitive as it gets with rejections isn't it.