[The Habitat Dr]

Specific to the United States, why is it considered borderline illegal to burn the American flag, which is protected by the First Amendment, while an obese man walking on a beach wearing an American flag speedo is viewed as patriotic?

[sircockburn]

It's good advertising.

"God Bless America, for our people are well fed"

[Asocialkat]

One is an adjective; one is a noun.

[Warrior]

Technically, wearing the flag as an article of clothing is illegal. Unfortunately this part of the flag code is pretty much ignored. I don't find anything patriotic in wearing the flag as a speedo. Also, burning a flag that is tattered and no longer in good condition is the generally accepted proper method of retirement.

[Robot]

I wasn't aware they made american flag speedos for obese people. I didn't think they made speedos for obese people in general. If there's a problem that needs to be addressed, this is it.

To answer your question though, the likelihood of something flag-related being offensive or not is generally reliant on intent. If the intent is to say "fuck america," then patriotic people might not be totally cool with it. If you're simply displaying your love of america, albeit in a disgusting, tasteless manner, you're going to be perceived differently.

Really though, I don't see that much respect for the flag where I live. I could go outside and burn one on the street and people would be mad at me because I'm setting things on fire, but that's probably it.

[Zsych]

I'd consider the speedo in bad taste. Hot women in flag bikinis are being patriotic.

Anyway, you shouldn't be insulting a symbol of what we (should) believe in.

[Robot]

Personally, I find patriotism itself to be in bad taste.

[Oblivious]

Reminds me of something that happened at work a long time ago.

This guy had an American flag bandana in his back pocket. It wasn't an actual flag. It just had the colors. It didn't even have the flag pattern.

We were non-union workers in a union environment, so they already didn't like us.

One of these union workers came up to the guy and said something along the lines of "There are a few of us here that are veterans, and we are offended that you carry an American flag in your back pocket."

He pulls the bandana out of his back pocket, holds it up, and says rather loudly "This isn't a flag. It's a snot rag!"

The union worker turned around and stormed off.

I thought it was funny.

The union guy actually went and filed a complaint about it. Our boss (A Private contractor not really affiliated with the place we were working) called us into the office to talk to us about it. He asked what happened. We told him. Then he said "Well, when he said that did you tell him to kiss you ass?"

It was funny before, but that made my day.

I'm proud of my country and all, but some people take that stuff overboard.

---------- Post added 02-06-2011 at 12:10 PM ----------

I do think that if someone burns the flag, they should kick their ass out of the country where they don't have to worry about it anymore though.

I don't really find flag clothing or designs offensive in any way.

[Beric]

	Originally Posted by Robot To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Personally, I find patriotism itself to be in bad taste.

Personally, I find that a country without patriotism is doomed to fall from within. Some of us may not need it, but for the masses, patriotism may be why people keep supporting the country, joining the military, or deciding to live another day. People who disdain patriotism, IMO, aren't being realistic. Since when has a country without patriotism survived? Or is that your intention? Realize that if the Utopian country you live in doesn't have patriotism, it will quickly be taken over by the lesser nations that do.

Patriotism is basically the idea that you believe your country is better than another. Irrational, perhaps. But if you don't, why should you defend yourself from invaders?

[The Habitat Dr]

	Originally Posted by Robot To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I wasn't aware they made american flag speedos for obese people. I didn't think they made speedos for obese people in general. If there's a problem that needs to be addressed, this is it.

Speedos come in all sizes. Even if it doesn't fit, we're Americans, we'll make it fit lol.

[zergonipal]

Patriotism is just tribalism - a sense of togetherness, of saying 'we don't always agree, but we're on the same team, so we'll be loyal to each other'. Unlike tribalism, patriotism allows you to feel a connection to people you've never even met. It became necessary once tribes became cities, and cities became nation states, and people started having a vested interest in the safety and success of other people they'd never even met. Together with the cultural adhesive that is religion, patriotism allows the formation of stable groups of very large numbers of people, something unknown to us in our 'natural' state.

But re the original question - to burn the flag is to reject the group, to disrespect its symbols, and to mark yourself a defector. Since it hits us in our instincts, people tend to have a knee-jerk emotional reaction to it.

Not sure about the speedos...

[The Habitat Dr]

	Originally Posted by Beric To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Patriotism is basically the idea that you believe your country is better than another. Irrational, perhaps. But if you don't, why should you defend yourself from invaders?

In the event that we are moving into a utopian society, your point verifies that the transition can't/won't be a quick one, but still, IMO, sense of/responsibility to community > patriotism, especially considering what we've done to those who aren't considered "patriotic" within our own country in times of war.

---------- Post added 02-06-2011 at 01:23 PM ----------

Originally Posted by zergonipal To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Patriotism is just tribalism - a sense of togetherness, of saying 'we don't always agree, but we're on the same team, so we'll be loyal to each other'. Unlike tribalism, patriotism allows you to feel a connection to people you've never even met. It became necessary once tribes became cities, and cities became nation states, and people started having a vested interest in the safety and success of other people they'd never even met. Together with the cultural adhesive that is religion, patriotism allows the formation of stable groups of very large numbers of people, something unknown to us in our 'natural' state.

To me, (within the U.S. at least) patriotism is restricted to a belief of country-scale superiority, not regional, state, or local superiority, which are, IMO, a more acceptable form of tribalism, a different degree.

---------- Post added 02-06-2011 at 01:28 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'd consider the speedo in bad taste. Hot women in flag bikinis are being patriotic. Anyway, you shouldn't be insulting a symbol of what we (should) believe in.

I think in this case the obscenity of being obese > the obscenity of wearing the stars and stripes around one's sweaty genitalia. Two competing obscenities earning a single detraction.

[Robot]

	Originally Posted by Beric To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Patriotism is basically the idea that you believe your country is better than another. Irrational, perhaps. But if you don't, why should you defend yourself from invaders?

It is irrational. Patriots are often the least likely to think critically of their own governments and societies, and thus have a diminished chance of improving the world around them. Patriotism often devolves into baseless xenophobia and unwarranted self satisfaction.

In the case of invasion, I will fight for myself and the people I love. Those people don't have a flag that tells me to respect them, I respect them and love them through what they have and would do for me. I don't know America, and America doesn't know me, so whatever. I welcome our chinese usurpers.

[aristos achaion]

	Originally Posted by Warrior To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Technically, wearing the flag as an article of clothing is illegal. Unfortunately this part of the flag code is pretty much ignored. I don't find anything patriotic in wearing the flag as a speedo. Also, burning a flag that is tattered and no longer in good condition is the generally accepted proper method of retirement.

Well, it's not so much that the flag code is ignored as that enforcing punative damages for violating it would violate the First Amendment, per the Supreme Court. And flag-burning is the correct way to dispose of a flag, but it's a pretty involved process that only certain groups are supposed to do...you don't just chuck the old flag on the brush heap.

The distinction probably comes with the distinction between "us" and "them"...people who don't like us tend to burn our flag, and, instead of viewing that as their right to free speech, we want an excuse to punish them. However, we get so into declaring our "us"-ness, that we forget there're limits set down by taste.

[Warrior]

	Originally Posted by aristos achaion To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well, it's not so much that the flag code is ignored as that enforcing punative damages for violating it would violate the First Amendment, per the Supreme Court. And flag-burning is the correct way to dispose of a flag, but it's a pretty involved process that only certain groups are supposed to do...you don't just chuck the old flag on the brush heap.

I'd say it is ignored. There aren't any penalties to enforce at all, but that doesn't prevent someone from abiding by the law. Although, I don't think a lot of people even know some of the details of the flag code such as this.

[True Rune]

Originally Posted by Beric To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Personally, I find that a country without patriotism is doomed to fall from within. Some of us may not need it, but for the masses, patriotism may be why people keep supporting the country, joining the military, or deciding to live another day. People who disdain patriotism, IMO, aren't being realistic. Since when has a country without patriotism survived? Or is that your intention? Realize that if the Utopian country you live in doesn't have patriotism, it will quickly be taken over by the lesser nations that do. Patriotism is basically the idea that you believe your country is better than another. Irrational, perhaps. But if you don't, why should you defend yourself from invaders?

There was life before the nation-state..

[aristos achaion]

	Originally Posted by Warrior To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'd say it is ignored. There aren't any penalties to enforce at all, but that doesn't prevent someone from abiding by the law. Although, I don't think a lot of people even know some of the details of the flag code such as this.

Oh, yes, I don't disagree. I was a Scout back in the day, and people ignoring basic flag-code stuff drives me nuts. My graddad was a veteran, and the flag on his coffin was folded incorrectly (bits of red showing). Drove me nuts, and everyone else's response was "it doesn't really matter". Grr...could we get a little respect?

[Paul Siraisi]

Intent.

[Integxx]

Freedom of speech is being pushed to the limit in today's media for one reason.... to diminish it. The burning of the quaran, protesters out side of a funeral, etc.. is all being used to exaggerate the use of the first amendment and put restrictions wherever possible by our government

[Commissar]

Since when is it illegal to burn a flag in the US?

[Anhedonic Lake]

	Originally Posted by The Habitat Dr To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Specific to the United States, why is it considered borderline illegal to burn the American flag, which is protected by the First Amendment, while an obese man walking on a beach wearing an American flag speedo is viewed as patriotic?

Would it be anyless patriotic if were like this?

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[Warrior]

	Originally Posted by Anhedonic Lake To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Would it be anyless patriotic if were like this? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

People in the US generally don't fly the Union Jack as a symbol of their patriotism.
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[Blackwark]

Being proud of your country is fine.
Doing stupid things to show you patriotism tells me something about you. You're compensating for something, or being oddly competitive about it. Both are odd and tasteless unless you're having some fun, international sporting competition. Then it's just showing support.

And burning a flag is fine. Just means you're unsatisfied with the way the country currently is. Giving it attention, when you should be secure in your quiet pride in your country, is the problem.

However, that's just, like, my opinion, man.

[Antares]

I hate patriotism. But then this is coming from someone who thinks she doesn't have one because her roots are all over the place. Liking your country is fine, serving your country is fine, but don't you get superior about it.

[Geise]

	Originally Posted by Beric To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Realize that if the Utopian country you live in doesn't have patriotism, it will quickly be taken over by the lesser nations that do.

That's precisely why some people think patriotism is in bad taste. It promotes that kind of thinking.