[MissBlossom]

I am starting this thread in this forum because I believe that INTJs can provide reasonable answers without b.s.ing. Share your thoughts about this topic. The thing I am interested the most is why people convert to Islam. What kind of people are they and what are the reasons they choose Islam.
Anyway, we can talk about people converting to Judaism and Christianity as well.
Maybe you know some scientific research that was done or where I could find some serious material related with this topic?

[Still Standing]

People convert to another religion for many reasons. Often they do it out of "love" for another person of that religion. I think most do it because they idealize the other religion and don't realize that they'll just be moving from one dogmatic thought prison to another one.

[TylerRDA]

Well, theres always the possibility that the religion they join actually teaches something that's true.

[jerdol]

There are two primary types of conversion, what I shall dub as real and for convenience.
Real - they become persuaded by its teachings. In certain cases this is due to bona fide consideration and studying, in certain cases it's due to an internal straw man - the person was unsatisfied with his current faith, and had a spiritual void filled by the new religion. The latter are the most likely to become fanatical.
For convenience - this is mostly among the secular. A person doesn't consider religion an important part of his life, and seeks to be a part of the religious community (for instance, to marry a person of that religion). The person is usually okay with both religions, but is not attached to the first one.

Specifically in the case of Islam, it's in part because:
1) It's a beautiful and wonderful religion.
2) It has active and effective proselytizers.
3) Its structure is such that it fits very much the usual spiritual voids of our era.

[MissBlossom]

	Originally Posted by jerdol To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	3) Its structure is such that it fits very much the usual spiritual voids of our era.

Would you go into details on this one? Which things would that be?

[jerdol]

	Would you go into details on this one? Which things would that be?

I would rather not, as I'm utterly unqualified. My thoughts are along the lines of the fact that Islam tends to present a reasonably rigid dogma and clear answers, as it's very action-based; these are welcome in a world facing existential crisis, and contrasts with mainstream Christianity's more faith-based nature. Once again, however, I'm no expert, and speak out of ignorance based on stereotype and prejudice.

[Autumnleaf]

Originally Posted by MissBlossom To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I am starting this thread in this forum because I believe that INTJs can provide reasonable answers without b.s.ing. Share your thoughts about this topic. The thing I am interested the most is why people convert to Islam. What kind of people are they and what are the reasons they choose Islam. Anyway, we can talk about people converting to Judaism and Christianity as well. Maybe you know some scientific research that was done or where I could find some serious material related with this topic?

I've wondered this myself. The reasons I've come up with are:

1) People want morality like it was, 'in the old days' and since Christianity is no longer there they're left with Islam as the only religion left which holds the line on adultery and homosexuality being bad. Some may say its a form of bigotry but I think its a deep gut level rejection of the acceptance of morally 'bad' things that many people have.

2) Embracing Islam is a form of rejecting what many see as Christian hypocrisy, especially among Catholics. Awhile back I read Catholics are turning to Islam since many priests have been found to be morally questionable. Disillusionment with Christianity leads many people to find another religion with a strong moral code. In that Islam seems to stand alone.

I don't personally endorse any religion but I do believe in God and his providence.

[jerdol]

	Islam as the only religion left which holds the line on adultery and homosexuality being bad

Untrue. All Abrahamic religions are against adultery, Judaism and Catholicism against homosexuality; members of all three religions partake in both. Islam and Judaism, because they accept polygyny, are more accepting of the modern notion of adultery; in Judaism there is no inherent prohibition on a married man sleeping with an unmarried woman, though marriage should follow. (this is a convoluted law with no modern-day manifestations, so don't take it too far. It is worth pointing out, though.)

[TylerRDA]

Based on my experiences with Muslims and their faith, I agree with jeridol that Islam is more action-based than mainstream Christianity, meaning, they live their religion and all the implications of their convictions. Look at how they pray, fast, give alms, etc. vs. how mainstream Christians preach and argue about prayer, fasting, tithes, etc. The West may view the Islamic culture as backwards or ignorant, but I disagree: they live by their beliefs. Their beliefs carry weight. They don't bicker about it as a scholarly matter.

[Mogura]

	Originally Posted by Still Standing To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	People convert to another religion for many reasons. Often they do it out of "love" for another person of that religion. I think most do it because they idealize the other religion and don't realize that they'll just be moving from one dogmatic thought prison to another one.

This.

On the first point, if you wish to marry a person of a different religion or faith sometimes the rules of that religion or faith dictate conversion.

Now if only I could meet more Raëlian chicks, all my problems would be solved...

[Kisai]

Some ideas:

1) They are recruited by proseltyzers during trough periods in their life. As Dennis Miller eloquently put it: "No one discovers Jesus on prom night". Its when one's down and out without a support network that one will jump from one's worldview to another.

2) They are (consciously or unconsciously) pissing off their parents and the value systems of such. They are not happy at all by the way they have been raised and exercising their religious freedom is a slap in Mom and Dad's face. Its that their parent's world is perceived as so unsavory that the values that the parent's have been opposed against seem angelic by comparism.

3) They haven't found an identity that they can relate to within their own value/spiritual system and are reaching for another. Perhaps this other religion is from a distant land, and it seems exotic and intellectualized, or calls to the core values of the convert.

4) They have a genuine, inquiring mind.

[Autumnleaf]

Originally Posted by jerdol To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Untrue. All Abrahamic religions are against adultery, Judaism and Catholicism against homosexuality; members of all three religions partake in both. Islam and Judaism, because they accept polygyny, are more accepting of the modern notion of adultery; in Judaism there is no inherent prohibition on a married man sleeping with an unmarried woman, though marriage should follow. (this is a convoluted law with no modern-day manifestations, so don't take it too far. It is worth pointing out, though.)

The Jews aren't taking converts unless their momma's are Jews. The Catholics are dealing with the fallout of child molester priests. Your points are valid but...

[Hydro]

People convert to one or another cult because they are searching for the simple answers in life and especially for their (most times screwed-up) life.

It's so much easier to follow the herd and to do what others say than using your own head and find solutions the intellectual way. In my country many people who ended up with Islam or Scientology have a history of religious or esoteric cults they've joined earlier in their life and lots of confidence and self-respect issues.


I personally think Islam is so attractive to many people because:

- it is not only religion but also a governmental system
- it gives you very clear and simple rules of what and what not to do
- "it is all written" and therefore not to be discussed but to follow
- it is still kind of pure and not yet contaminated by political correctness

[Anhedonic Lake]

I believe it's a form of compartmentalisation. Some religions have more outlandish claims and have a more backwards sense of morality than others. Many people can't reconcile their rationality with such beliefs and ethics but they can't leave go of the comfort they get from religion-or how they were indoctrinated. So they go to a more enlightened faith so they can hang onto rationality and the comfort they derive from faith. Rational and intelligent people can't run forever though, I should know as I once did the above:

Catholicism-Buddhism-Deism-Agnosticism-Atheism.

[Haumea]

	The West may view the Islamic culture as backwards or ignorant, but I disagree: they live by their beliefs.

But that's not an argument that it's not backwards and ignorant; it's merely an assertion that they live in backwardness and ignorance.

The reason Islam - particularly the Wahhabi strain popular in the Middle East - is backwards and ignorant is quite mundane: it condones first cousin marriage, and the retarded fruit of such unions. It's not rocket science: you allow first cousin marriage, you will get many dumb, belligerent members.

There's nothing beautiful or wonderful about such a dysgenic religion in my view. Retarding the human race for the sake of some insane conquest drive is an unmitigated evil.

[Bluesea]

When travelling once, a man once told me that religions of a culture provide the skills and balance that a culture needs due to it's nature and the weaknesses inherent within it. If a culture lives by passions as genetically and socially it has predisposed that culture to this, the religion will inhibit these things to provide the necessary controls to manage this tendency. He said that by studying the very things a religion inhibits you can tell a lot about what that culture has excesses of.

I think spirituality is a very individual thing, a societies choice about a mainstream option does not suit everyone so people seek elsewhere until they feel satisfied, They choose something that for them speaks to the very elements they need to grow spiritually, they find accord with this philosophy, they find a path with which to walk when this door opens. This could be due to specific psychological realities of their life that leave them intuitively recognising a deficit in an area that a particular religion has a strength in or it reinforces values and principles that resolve certain key psychoemotional dilemmas or traumas of their lives in ways that allow them to find peace.

Let people be with the choices they make and trust they are right for them. It is their life after all.

[Alderamin]

I work with many Western converts to Islam and they seem to have felt very alienated from the world around them earlier on in their lives, whereas the apparent sense of community in Islam is something they were drawn to.

But the problem is that contemporary Muslim societies are often very tribal in mindset. Hence the cousin marriage (marriage within clans), high walls built all the way around houses, nationalistic hatred, and the like. And for a Westerner, this too is alienating.

So in some cases it is based on these unwarranted assumptions about Islam; positive instead of negative.

[N0c7urn3]

I personally know of people who convert to another religion to marry. Some of that is due to the religious requirement of one party (Islam has rules on this, as far as I can understand), or it might be for parental appeasement. How 'faithful' they are to the new religion, I do not know. It doesn't seem genuine most of the time.

Sometimes, they convert because they have friends who are of that faith, and over time, the idea spreads until they just 'feel' it: touched by an angel, or perhaps, touched in the head. Folie à deux.

[Swanee]

There is no one generic answer - The shifting beliefs and values of any individual will drive their decision making processes and subsequent actions.

[jerdol]

	I personally think Islam is so attractive to many people because: - it is not only religion but also a governmental system - it gives you very clear and simple rules of what and what not to do - "it is all written" and therefore not to be discussed but to follow - it is still kind of pure and not yet contaminated by political correctness

The rules are anything but "clear and simple," as the rich traditions of Islamic scholarship show. There is definitely much to be discussed; Islam does not seek sheep. It is very much contaminated by political correctness. What you are describing is nothing more than dogma, an important part of most religions.

The reason Islam - particularly the Wahhabi strain popular in the Middle East - is backwards and ignorant is quite mundane: it condones first cousin marriage, and the retarded fruit of such unions. It's not rocket science: you allow first cousin marriage, you will get many dumb, belligerent members. There's nothing beautiful or wonderful about such a dysgenic religion in my view. Retarding the human race for the sake of some insane conquest drive is an unmitigated evil.

1) The effect you're implying would require substantially more inbreeding of a substantially closer nature than cousins. I really don't think you can claim Islam is "retarding the human race." The irony is that we're discussing conversion, in which religion has no genetic component.
2) The insane conquest drive claim is false.

	But the problem is that contemporary Muslim societies are often very tribal in mindset.

A false generalization.

It would be helpful if the discussion on conversion could be separated from the various religious prejudices people here have.

[Alderamin]

Unfortunately it is quite accurate, most acutely in the Gulf states, North Africa, some of the Levant, and Afghanistan and Pakistan.

[PontifexAvis]

Originally Posted by MissBlossom To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I am starting this thread in this forum because I believe that INTJs can provide reasonable answers without b.s.ing. Share your thoughts about this topic. The thing I am interested the most is why people convert to Islam. What kind of people are they and what are the reasons they choose Islam. Anyway, we can talk about people converting to Judaism and Christianity as well. Maybe you know some scientific research that was done or where I could find some serious material related with this topic?

One thinker who I have much respect for (yet have not given their works the time they need) converted to Islam. He did so because it offered a clearer esoteric path than Catholicism did, in the form of Sufism. Islam is one of the major sources of Traditionalism in this world. It is just one of many reasons, I do not think there is a one size fits all answer to this question. Unless something big happens, I will not convert.

[Episthene]

I can only talk from my own experience, trying to generalize is pretty futile, there are so many doors and ways into religion that you could write a different story for everyone. Not only that, but I find it condescending for those who actually converted (I feel like that anyway), and that condescension comes from the outside as well as the inside of religion.

My case is peculiar, because my parents were atheists and they sent me to a Catholic school. So I learned quite young some basics of the Faith, but not the actual practical religion. But I even served the mass almost met JP II.

But when I stopped going to that school, I just drifted away, like a true introvert. It was not there anymore, so I just forgot about it.

But many years later, I had a big challenge in my life, a big depression that lasted one year. The only thing that was keeping me about strangely, was the thought that I would end it at a particular date. But when the time came, I chickened out, and I got a big dissociative event that some people call a revelation. It won't say what it was, because I think it is personal. But I had the impression that there was a force higher and stronger than myself that wanted me to live, and that I had to follow that force. I did not think that force was God though, I knew it was me, but an unconscious me.

But anyway, since I needed to live and I did not knew how (I was at that time totally empty and a complete nihilist), I just tried to find something with a structure that would accept me for who I was and not for what I can produce for them. And in a way, I did find that, and I stayed 5 years in the Church, in communities or working for the diocese.

Eventually, I could not tolerate the culture of abuse anymore, so I left. But I learned a lot there, because that culture is so rich from the past. Compared to the sterile and barren environment of secular life, it was worth it. I am not grateful to the Christians, many of them are just self-serving jerks and I gave them their due, although I did found some quite holy men. They are unfortunately so rare though, that those are almost miracles. They are holy despite the Church and not because of it.

[TylerRDA]

Originally Posted by Haumea To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

But that's not an argument that it's not backwards and ignorant; it's merely an assertion that they live in backwardness and ignorance. The reason Islam - particularly the Wahhabi strain popular in the Middle East - is backwards and ignorant is quite mundane: it condones first cousin marriage, and the retarded fruit of such unions. It's not rocket science: you allow first cousin marriage, you will get many dumb, belligerent members. There's nothing beautiful or wonderful about such a dysgenic religion in my view. Retarding the human race for the sake of some insane conquest drive is an unmitigated evil.

Yes. One group of people that happen to be Islamic happen to condone something that we know is a bad idea. Therefore all of Islam is backwards and barbaric. Pure logic.

Also, don't confuse their governmental system with their ideological system. Take a look at how frikkin corrupt and dysfunctional our governmental system is, plus we're looking from the inside so we're already viewing favorably due to familiarity. Every single Islamic person I've ever met is peaceful, accepting, and imparts of his means to the poor. And personally, I find a nation of young (and old) women that dress like whores more backwards than a nation of women that overdress.

And I haven't seen any "Insane conquest drive" in the Middle East that exceeds any other nation's drive to conquest.

[Zsych]

To people who think but nevertheless want to believe, some religions seem better or more sensible than others.

(And I have a very high opinion of Islam as a religion
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)

I think its also possible that they didn't really study their own religion so they associate their religion with their culture, then they end up studying another religion or some part of it speaks to them or makes them feel more comfortable/happier with their lives, and they convert.