Could you do immoral things to AI?

**Antares** · 12-22-2010, 08:23 PM

I was playing Sims 3 the other day and I noticed that it took me a long, long time to work around the mental inhibition to cheat on my wife, never mind that it was virtual reality. I sort of bought the game with half the intention that I would do shit that would never happen to me in real life, but there's still a moral inhibition, somehow. Are you comfortable with the idea of doing immoral things to people who aren't real?

**Zombicide** · 12-22-2010, 08:51 PM

When a game has delightful populace, I feel an obligation to be helpful with them but when it's populace is liken to the supposedly "real" general populace, it makes me want to go on killing sprees where I turn them into pin cushions using arrows and blast characters limbs off, it's relatively fun either way, not sure why I'm suppose to want to save the world in a game whose populace is like that of real so called people. I inevitably end up killing all my sims since they never live up to my expectations (just like everything else), preferably in what would be a painful way that is. Gradually it went from I want to eliminate the baddies to save the day, to I just want to kill all of these people painfully.

---------- Post added 12-22-2010 at 09:08 PM ----------

Actually I wish they'd allow me to do more supposedly immoral things to regular / evil people ... in video games.

**Myth** · 12-23-2010, 01:10 AM

I hope not, or else I'm really in trouble for my conduct in GTA.

**nolabel** · 12-23-2010, 01:36 AM

Yes, I can unless doing so won't allow me to acquire a rare item.

**Tactical Panda** · 12-23-2010, 04:15 AM

Aimlessly hackslashburn?
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Coordinate RTS massacres?
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Go on headshot sprees?
I guess the answer is yes, I could do immoral things to computer players.

Its hardly a fully functioning AI though. Completely different issue to me.
It doesn't think for itself or set its own priorities, goals and concerns.
That would be a trickier pickle.

MrFreakaficial · 12-23-2010, 04:45 AM

AI that serves the sole purpose of being defeated, like in video games? Sure, it's hardly smarter than a microwave.

As of yet non-existent AI in the form of robots that help with every day life and tend to your house (think WALL-E, but less anthropomorphised)? No, I'd feel bad.

Self-aware AI? Definitely not, it'd be "alive" by my standards.

**56 62 75 1** · 12-23-2010, 05:10 AM

morals are anything you want them to be
so yes;
if cheating on a virtual wife is against your morals then it would be possible to do something immoral to AI.

personally my morals don't include AI
but
i don't have many morals either so.....

**LaoTzu** · 12-23-2010, 06:11 AM

I usually act in a similar manner to how I conduct myself in RL. But Kant is my fave philosopher, so what else could I do....imperatives being what they are...
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Lucky for me, I have loose morals and swear like a Trucker... otherwise I might as well go to Church....

**Zsych** · 12-23-2010, 06:38 AM

GTA - destruction.
FPS - destruction.
Pleasant looking character that isn't harming me in some other game... it does tend to itch.

Like playing Fable, I never really ended up playing as an Evil character, even though I'd intend to try it.

**Spectrum** · 12-23-2010, 08:37 AM

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	GTA - destruction. FPS - destruction. Pleasant looking character that isn't harming me in some other game... it does tend to itch. Like playing Fable, I never really ended up playing as an Evil character, even though I'd intend to try it.

I know what you mean. Being evil in Fable III sucks anyhow. My brother enjoys killing people aimlessly, and I do it every now and then to put fear into the hearts of men. To answer the OP's question, I really only do it when it is beneficial for me in-game. Some people however, find pleasure in killing virtual carbon-based watersacks.

**Arkeph** · 12-23-2010, 10:21 AM

I've been thinking on this issue too, and it's a difficult ethical problem. One could reasonably say that nothing that isn't sufficiently sentient is worth moral consideration, and simulated persons are not sentient at all. However, the role of belief and intent as factors in moral judgment is also relevant.

It's taken for granted--rightly in my view--that if someone believes they're injuring a real person, they are morally culpable, regardless of the correctness of that belief. If they incorrectly disbelieve the reality of the person, they're also morally culpable, though typically less so. Otherwise, if their disbelief is correct, then they're not morally culpable.

Can that disbelief be maintained in the face of a perfectly accurate simulation? Certainly not. 99% accurate? 98%? How does the context of the situation affect that critical number, and how is it determined?

The problem I see is that belief is a bit vague. We see human traits in our pets and, to a lesser extent, in machines, regardless of the reality. We even assign human attributes to the abstract idea of life itself. Our perception sees humanity in degrees, not as a binary true or false attribute.

It seems reasonable to think that a sufficiently accurate simulation of a person simply can't be disbelieved enough to dispel all moral culpability. I don't think video games are anywhere near that level of sophistication, but it's nonetheless very possible that they might reach it someday.

**TobiasW** · 12-26-2010, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Antares
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I was playing Sims 3 the other day and I noticed that it took me a long, long time to work around the mental inhibition to cheat on my wife, never mind that it was virtual reality. I sort of bought the game with half the intention that I would do shit that would never happen to me in real life, but there's still a moral inhibition, somehow. Are you comfortable with the idea of doing immoral things to people who aren't real?

I have only played Sims 1, and I intentionally killed my mates by trapping them in a space without food for a while. I then married a new mate to get all her money. I repeated this pattern several times so that I could build a bigger house.

But I would treat any real self aware AI as a human. In the end, it is the intellect and ability to be aware of one self which is important; not the building materials being used to create the entity nor the process of evolving the machinery for that entity.

(A later found out that I made more money by making wooden elves, I thus stopped my killing mayhem to peruse that career.)

**Miryr** · 12-26-2010, 09:29 PM

I used to play the Sims when I was younger and I used to sell every single door in the house and light people on fire. Besides that, if I had to live with another person (there was a storyline in one of the Sims I had) I'd build a wall around them and put a telephone in their little cubicle. This way I'd always have a secretary who didn't make things dirty and didn't cost me a cent, he also couldn't die since he was a "plot essential character" so at most he'd whimper around all day and sleep in his own filth.

There's more for just about every video game I've played, but you get the idea. I'm about as immoral as you can get in video games and don't mind harming AI. I was also annoyed when I noticed that games like Fable or Fallout do not allow you to kill children (I even wrote
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on the subject).

Honestly, I can't understand what the big deal is. It's not as if you're actually harming anyone or anything.

---------- Post added 12-26-2010 at 09:32 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by TobiasW To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But I would treat any real self aware AI as a human. In the end, it is the intellect and ability to be aware of one self which is important; not the building materials being used to create the entity nor the process of evolving the machinery for that entity.

That's where the difference lies. When there's the technology to create such things I will be all for pushing legalization to stop people from abusing such technologies.

---------- Post added 12-26-2010 at 09:36 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Like playing Fable, I never really ended up playing as an Evil character, even though I'd intend to try it.

The only real difference in Fable if you were evil was that you could buy all houses (which I did) and you could gain some additional weapons. Besides that there wasn't any difference, but funnily enough I ended up with a "good" character because killing any sort of beast granted you good points.

**Eye on Earth** · 12-26-2010, 09:40 PM

I don't go out of my way to injure or kill AI's. If it happens, I think it is because I screwed up somehow.

When I played Sims a while back I started with a male character and I couldn't get him to hook up with anyone. I made him become friends with as many people as I could get to the house, but he would never do the deed with anyone. I'm not sure if the AI was messed up or if I was messing up somehow. Eventually that character burned up in an oven fire. I felt bad.

12-22-2010, 08:23 PM	#1
Antares Core Member [170%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 6,808	I was playing Sims 3 the other day and I noticed that it took me a long, long time to work around the mental inhibition to cheat on my wife, never mind that it was virtual reality. I sort of bought the game with half the intention that I would do shit that would never happen to me in real life, but there's still a moral inhibition, somehow. Are you comfortable with the idea of doing immoral things to people who aren't real?
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12-22-2010, 08:51 PM	#2
Zombicide Core Member [105%] MBTI: INTj Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 4,209	When a game has delightful populace, I feel an obligation to be helpful with them but when it's populace is liken to the supposedly "real" general populace, it makes me want to go on killing sprees where I turn them into pin cushions using arrows and blast characters limbs off, it's relatively fun either way, not sure why I'm suppose to want to save the world in a game whose populace is like that of real so called people. I inevitably end up killing all my sims since they never live up to my expectations (just like everything else), preferably in what would be a painful way that is. Gradually it went from I want to eliminate the baddies to save the day, to I just want to kill all of these people painfully. ---------- Post added 12-22-2010 at 09:08 PM ---------- Actually I wish they'd allow me to do more supposedly immoral things to regular / evil people ... in video games. Last edited by Zombicide; 12-23-2010 at 02:12 AM.
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12-23-2010, 01:10 AM	#3
Myth Member [04%] MBTI: xxxx Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 187	I hope not, or else I'm really in trouble for my conduct in GTA.
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12-23-2010, 01:36 AM	#4
nolabel Member [06%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 279	Yes, I can unless doing so won't allow me to acquire a rare item.
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12-23-2010, 04:15 AM	#5
Tactical Panda Core Member [133%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,328	Aimlessly hackslashburn? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Coordinate RTS massacres? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Go on headshot sprees? I guess the answer is yes, I could do immoral things to computer players. Its hardly a fully functioning AI though. Completely different issue to me. It doesn't think for itself or set its own priorities, goals and concerns. That would be a trickier pickle.
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12-23-2010, 04:45 AM	#6
MrFreakaficial Core Member [221%] MBTI: INFJ Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 8,847	AI that serves the sole purpose of being defeated, like in video games? Sure, it's hardly smarter than a microwave. As of yet non-existent AI in the form of robots that help with every day life and tend to your house (think WALL-E, but less anthropomorphised)? No, I'd feel bad. Self-aware AI? Definitely not, it'd be "alive" by my standards.
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12-23-2010, 05:10 AM	#7
56 62 75 1 Banned MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 60	morals are anything you want them to be so yes; if cheating on a virtual wife is against your morals then it would be possible to do something immoral to AI. personally my morals don't include AI but i don't have many morals either so.....
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12-23-2010, 06:11 AM	#8
LaoTzu Core Member [106%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 4,263	I usually act in a similar manner to how I conduct myself in RL. But Kant is my fave philosopher, so what else could I do....imperatives being what they are... To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Lucky for me, I have loose morals and swear like a Trucker... otherwise I might as well go to Church....
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12-23-2010, 06:38 AM	#9
Zsych Core Member [309%] MBTI: XNTX Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 12,366	GTA - destruction. FPS - destruction. Pleasant looking character that isn't harming me in some other game... it does tend to itch. Like playing Fable, I never really ended up playing as an Evil character, even though I'd intend to try it.
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12-23-2010, 10:21 AM	#11
Arkeph Member [20%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 818	I've been thinking on this issue too, and it's a difficult ethical problem. One could reasonably say that nothing that isn't sufficiently sentient is worth moral consideration, and simulated persons are not sentient at all. However, the role of belief and intent as factors in moral judgment is also relevant. It's taken for granted--rightly in my view--that if someone believes they're injuring a real person, they are morally culpable, regardless of the correctness of that belief. If they incorrectly disbelieve the reality of the person, they're also morally culpable, though typically less so. Otherwise, if their disbelief is correct, then they're not morally culpable. Can that disbelief be maintained in the face of a perfectly accurate simulation? Certainly not. 99% accurate? 98%? How does the context of the situation affect that critical number, and how is it determined? The problem I see is that belief is a bit vague. We see human traits in our pets and, to a lesser extent, in machines, regardless of the reality. We even assign human attributes to the abstract idea of life itself. Our perception sees humanity in degrees, not as a binary true or false attribute. It seems reasonable to think that a sufficiently accurate simulation of a person simply can't be disbelieved enough to dispel all moral culpability. I don't think video games are anywhere near that level of sophistication, but it's nonetheless very possible that they might reach it someday.
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12-26-2010, 09:40 PM	#14
Eye on Earth Core Member [334%] MBTI: XNTX Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 13,371	I don't go out of my way to injure or kill AI's. If it happens, I think it is because I screwed up somehow. When I played Sims a while back I started with a male character and I couldn't get him to hook up with anyone. I made him become friends with as many people as I could get to the house, but he would never do the deed with anyone. I'm not sure if the AI was messed up or if I was messing up somehow. Eventually that character burned up in an oven fire. I felt bad.
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