[ALAMGIR]

It could be said that the more human you appear, the more vulnerable you appear. Do you feel as if when others first meet you, as INTJs tend to not convey human emotions and presence, people(perhaps more so those of the opposite sex) perceive you as invulnerable, at least in most regards? How does this affect your subsequent interactions with this person? Does their attitude towards you change after they get to know you better? I normally like to give some example to contextualize my question but I''l hold off this time and wait for your responses, so as not to convolute the objective nature of the question.

[iamhuman]

I have absolutely had to deal with this sort of perception by others about me.

They tend to view me as very strong and invulnerable to hurt. This has the effect of causing them to do one of several things. They may decide that others need to be protected from me. They may decide that they can treat me disrespectfully or without the usual regard to feelings. They may decide to challenge me. They may decide to avoid me.

[Wilson]

This is a constant battle for me. Everyone around me, even those close to me, think that I am invincible. Always have everything under control. Even when I'm falling apart (or feel like I am).

I also seem to lack the ability to effectively communicate emotions. I once had a friend who was being hurtful throughout a conversation. I repeatedly told her "stop talking like that you are going to make me cry." When I finally did cry she was flabbergasted. I said "I told you you were going to make me cry." She said (I kid you not) "I guess I didn't believe you, you were so matter-of-fact about it."

I think there is a bit of a handicap that comes with being an INTJ that makes it difficult for others to read our emotions. But just because someone can't "read" them it doesn't mean they're not there.

[Anreader]

Other people think I'm invulnerable, but, honestly, I am practically invulnerable. People who insult me are stupid, so I think. People who praise me are silly. I am vulnerable only to my own thoughts. On rare occasions people who are very close to me were able to affect me, but those occasions were very rare.

The result of this is usually that people who are emotionally labile are attracted to me, socially and sometimes romantically. They seem to want to lean on me, use me, or borrow my strength. Ironically, I feel more insulted by this behavior than by any other thing. If changing would help, I'd be willing to change, but I don't know how.

[ALAMGIR]

Originally Posted by iamhuman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I have absolutely had to deal with this sort of perception by others about me. They tend to view me as very strong and invulnerable to hurt. This has the effect of causing them to do one of several things. They may decide that others need to be protected from me. They may decide that they can treat me disrespectfully or without the usual regard to feelings. They may decide to challenge me. They may decide to avoid me.

I think this effect has three main reactions;
1. After getting that vibe, they will ignore you or seem to ignore you or be very clipped with you. I have experienced this more so with women but with men also (such as employees working at stores, unless they are zealous in making a sale),
2.They will embrace you as an enigma, or someone with a magnetic personality. They usually will start talking to you to allay their suspicions (it may require subsequent encounters) and voila, you have either a fan or maybe some one can come close to being your peer (I'm not sure if INTjs can really be able to have non-INTJ peers
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.")
3.They will challenge you either verbally or even physically. Of course I've only experienced this physical confrontation with men. It seems with me atleast that ESFP (or those similar to them) types are the ones I've encountered this with more so. I remember once in high school I was sitting in detention (I was the record holder there) and this kid, who I'm sure was an ESFP came in and sat down and glanced at me. The moment he did that I felt he would be one to test me. As we were both serving a two-week's in-school suspension, only a day or two passed and this kid was trying everything to push my buttons (trying to get me to appear human), when I just tried to ignore him. He made a few comments that I thought I was too smart or some pusillanimous crap like that. Eventually, we got into a fight, and I guess I came out looking vulnerable, even though I got the better of him; I showed my anger and frustration. This reaction is the most dangerous one to that invulnerable perception we give off. If you look mentally invulnerable, some will look for vulnerabilities in other areas or try to bring them out anyway they can.
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Be careful.

Originally Posted by Wilson To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This is a constant battle for me. Everyone around me, even those close to me, think that I am invincible. Always have everything under control. Even when I'm falling apart (or feel like I am). I also seem to lack the ability to effectively communicate emotions. I once had a friend who was being hurtful throughout a conversation. I repeatedly told her "stop talking like that you are going to make me cry." When I finally did cry she was flabbergasted. I said "I told you you were going to make me cry." She said (I kid you not) "I guess I didn't believe you, you were so matter-of-fact about it." I think there is a bit of a handicap that comes with being an INTJ that makes it difficult for others to read our emotions. But just because someone can't "read" them it doesn't mean they're not there.

I would imagine INTJ women have a very hard time with the way others view their lack of emotions. They do come off as very intimidating. Look at Hillary Clinton, they (fox news) made her into a cold cruel monster, when she (I would hope so) has feelings and emotions underneath like any other woman. Too bad people tend to see only the surface.

---------- Post added 12-19-2010 at 04:26 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Anreader To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Other people think I'm invulnerable, but, honestly, I am practically invulnerable. People who insult me are stupid, so I think. People who praise me are silly. I am vulnerable only to my own thoughts. On rare occasions people who are very close to me were able to affect me, but those occasions were very rare. The result of this is usually that people who are emotionally labile are attracted to me, socially and sometimes romantically. They seem to want to lean on me, use me, or borrow my strength. Ironically, I feel more insulted by this behavior than by any other thing. If changing would help, I'd be willing to change, but I don't know how.

Maybe you have to allow others to adapt to you. Those who can't hop on board likely were not qualified enough to be of any use to you or you to them. This perception of Invulnerability may serve as a excellent filter. What do you think?

[masterpeach]

	Originally Posted by Anreader To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The result of this is usually that people who are emotionally labile are attracted to me, socially and sometimes romantically. They seem to want to lean on me, use me, or borrow my strength. Ironically, I feel more insulted by this behavior than by any other thing.

This happens to me as well. Especially men think they can do what they want with me because I seem to be invincible. I remember a classmate saying to others "She doesn't take it that hard" while I was really hurt by what she did.

But when I show my vulnerability, I am regarded as "weak, insecure and unattractive", so I decided to switch back to the other mode.

[AinSoph]

Usually people tend to view me as pretty grounded. Upon first meeting someone, it's quite rare, I think, that they have ever perceived me as being vulnerable. I tend to keep my problems, feelings, emotions, to myself and rarely do I like to actually discuss them with others. Instead, I see these things as my own repertoire of issues to deal with, alone. Generally, I think people pick up on this fact quickly. In some cases my lack of 'vulnerability' makes people intrigued by my presence (at times, making them more apt to engage with me and even more enthusiastic about doing so). Other times my nature probably does the exact opposite---pushes people away because of either their own anxiety at my lack of openness (yet assertive style of speech and behavior)or possibly because of some kind of unconscious resentment they harbor at my ability to isolate myself from the norm, and stick out, so to speak.

[Anreader]

	I would imagine INTJ women have a very hard time with the way others view their lack of emotions. They do come off as very intimidating. Look at Hillary Clinton, they (fox news) made her into a cold cruel monster, when she (I would hope so) has feelings and emotions underneath like any other woman. Too bad people tend to see only the surface.

Yes, and emotions are seen as vital to being a woman, making it very hard to exist in society when you (apparently) have none. I've been sexually harassed, questioned about my sexuality (even by my mother), and told I'm too "hard," off and on since childhood.

	Maybe you have to allow others to adapt to you. Those who can't hop on board likely were not qualified enough to be of any use to you or you to them. This perception of Invulnerability may serve as a excellent filter. What do you think?

I don't understand what you were meaning by most of this. However, I would say that it helps me filter out the neediest, clingiest people from my inner circle.

	But when I show my vulnerability, I am regarded as "weak, insecure and unattractive", so I decided to switch back to the other mode.

I Really hate being seen as Weak. Really.

[ALAMGIR]

Originally Posted by AinSoph To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Usually people tend to view me as pretty grounded. Upon first meeting someone, it's quite rare, I think, that they have ever perceived me as being vulnerable. I tend to keep my problems, feelings, emotions, to myself and rarely do I like to actually discuss them with others. Instead, I see these things as my own repertoire of issues to deal with, alone. Generally, I think people pick up on this fact quickly. In some cases my lack of 'vulnerability' makes people intrigued by my presence (at times, making them more apt to engage with me and even more enthusiastic about doing so). Other times my nature probably does the exact opposite---pushes people away because of either their own anxiety at my lack of openness (yet assertive style of speech and behavior)or possibly because of some kind of unconscious resentment they harbor at my ability to isolate myself from the norm, and stick out, so to speak.

This all seems to be a leitmotif. So I suppose the next question is what if anything should we do to handle these reactions? As I've stated before this initial impression of invulnerability can have all too serious consequences. Not everyone will just ignore you or remain intimated by the vibe you give off. You can and will be despised and malice may be directed towards yourself.

	Originally Posted by Anreader To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't understand what you were meaning by most of this. However, I would say that it helps me filter out the neediest, clingiest people from my inner circle. I Really hate being seen as Weak. Really.

I meant that you may be not be able to do much about this invulnerable impression you give off, and if you can it may not be wise for you to do so, especially as you are a woman, and most men (notwithstanding INTJ & INFJ men) would very much like to disprove your lack of vulnerability. So those who cannot adapt themselves to your personality, then it is maybe for all the best that these men are not needed in your life. I'm sure you will be able to show your feminine side and still not show your weaknesses, albeit you may be find very few men who will be able to weather this dynamic. It may be parallel in the case of the INTJ male as well, as I think most women cannot deal with such a uncapitulating personality since normal (i.e. average) relationships require give and take.

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[AinSoph]

Hey alamgir. How to handle the reactions? Simple, just engage respectfully with people when necessary, and if they do not want to engage well.... is that really your problem? Also, I don't plan on changing the way I come across or my stature in a room, as it were. Instead, I am who I am, and I'll deal with those who respect me, handle any conflict with poise, and simply not bother trying to change others who feel the need to hate for no good reason. Again... sometimes it's a matter of maturity---like being able to accept the lack of maturity in others, without compromising your own personality and confidence.

[ALAMGIR]

Impressive response and I think very true. I'm glad you said it. I often use (especially when I was a teenager) to try to accommodate others' personalities and then would come off as lacking confidence and not being "real" and people used to see me as weak as vulnerable. Now it seems to be going the other way. I just hadn't realize that most people are lacking the maturity and solid character to deal with my nascent confident, assertive personality. I imagine this holds true for a great deal INTJs who are maturing.

[vulcanhuman]

People are always astonished to find out that I have *Gasp* emotions?!?! I think people confuse me not being a sensitive person with me not having emotions at all. No I am not sensitive, my feelings are not easily hurt. However, that doesn't mean that I don't have feelings. I am just better about guarding them and not taking things personally than the average person.

[Nemesis]

I have the same problem. I've done pretty well for myself in my field, so even my closest friends seem to think it has come easy or that I just have some kind of innate talent or something. Truth is, none of them really see the struggle that goes on behind the scenes or the sacrifices I make to succeed. Nothing I have accomplished has come easy, and it's all taken it's toll. I have this relentless persistence when I pursue a goal... sometimes I don't know where to draw the line.

There's been times where I've been really (like dangerously) stressed out and not doing so well emotionally... and it's a massive struggle to actually convince people I'm really hurting pretty bad some times. I get a lot of "Oh, c'mon... of course things are fine... you're always fine" or just stunned reactions when they finally clue in that I'm in pain. I always appear level-headed and in control. Over the past while, I've been putting more effort into letting those close to me see my emotional side (for better or worse). It's still awkward for me to open up, but it has been like putting down a lot of weight from my shoulders.

[Anreader]

	I meant that you may be not be able to do much about this invulnerable impression you give off, and if you can it may not be wise for you to do so, especially as you are a woman, and most men (notwithstanding INTJ & INFJ men) would very much like to disprove your lack of vulnerability.

Are you saying that appearing more vulnerable would limit my mating pool because men are provoked by stoic women? Or that by being more vulnerable, I would attract more men that would be unsuitable? Or that more violent types are attracted to vulnerable women, and appearing more vulnerable would literally be dangerous?

	So those who cannot adapt themselves to your personality, then it is maybe for all the best that these men are not needed in your life.

So... submissive/ subordinate males?

	I'm sure you will be able to show your feminine side and still not show your weaknesses, albeit you may be find very few men who will be able to weather this dynamic.

Maybe the problem is that I'm a tad misogynistic. In my own head female seems to equal weak, although, I'm not certain there is a cure for that, unless its hypnotherapy or EST. Also, I have no desire to be the dominant partner, I want an equal relationship. In real life I think that equates to sometimes I'm the boss, sometimes he is.

[Wilson]

I have a hunch that this whole "invulnerable" thing is more of a burden for female INTJs than male. In my experience many men have a tough time being around a completely independent, self-sufficient woman who doesn't seem to need anything. Lots of weaker men are looking to "be the man" by simply showing up. You have to do more than just show up to "be the man" with me.

It is much more socially acceptable for a man to seem invulnerable. The whole "strong silent type" thing.

I'm not saying that there aren't men out there who can hack it. Just they seem to be few and far between. Would be curious if other women INTJs have that experience, or if it's just me.

[teri]

for a first impression, people generally think that I am very vulnerable. After they slightly get to know me, they then think that I have no emotions (and are surprised when they discover that I do). I, too have been repeatedly called "cold", "dyke bitch" , "lesbian", etc. People treat me alot better, now that I have closed the business that I ran for 13yrs. Working at a more "feminine" job has people treating me alot better. Unfortunately, I just took a new job helping a guy start a business that is very similiar to the one I used to own- I am having alot of problems with the older guys now (not the younger ones, though, they are just flirting with me and don't have an attitude at all). The problems started when I fixed all the walk-in cooler boxes, adjusted the temps, and siliconed the leaks (that the fridge-guy said couldn't be fixed). Also I am organizing the chaos, fixing mistakes (like how to figure out the correct mark-up percentages). Once I was praised as the one having the most "business sense", the older guys are just tearing in to me-filthy talking, screaming at me just to make themselves feel better, horrible attitudes. As soon as the place is up and running-I am out. I would much rather be paid to put on a fake smile, pose for pictures and superficially talk to people. Luckily everyone is not this way-I have already been offered 3 partnerships/jobs. I don't want to take them though. Unfortunately, I am a girl, and do have emotions (just not as emotional as most girls)

[iamhuman]

Originally Posted by ALAMGIR To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think this effect has three main reactions; 1. After getting that vibe, they will ignore you or seem to ignore you or be very clipped with you. I have experienced this more so with women but with men also (such as employees working at stores, unless they are zealous in making a sale), 2.They will embrace you as an enigma, or someone with a magnetic personality. They usually will start talking to you to allay their suspicions (it may require subsequent encounters) and voila, you have either a fan or maybe some one can come close to being your peer (I'm not sure if INTjs can really be able to have non-INTJ peers To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. .") 3.They will challenge you either verbally or even physically. Of course I've only experienced this physical confrontation with men. It seems with me atleast that ESFP (or those similar to them) types are the ones I've encountered this with more so. I remember once in high school I was sitting in detention (I was the record holder there) and this kid, who I'm sure was an ESFP came in and sat down and glanced at me. The moment he did that I felt he would be one to test me. As we were both serving a two-week's in-school suspension, only a day or two passed and this kid was trying everything to push my buttons (trying to get me to appear human), when I just tried to ignore him. He made a few comments that I thought I was too smart or some pusillanimous crap like that. Eventually, we got into a fight, and I guess I came out looking vulnerable, even though I got the better of him; I showed my anger and frustration. This reaction is the most dangerous one to that invulnerable perception we give off. If you look mentally invulnerable, some will look for vulnerabilities in other areas or try to bring them out anyway they can. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Be careful. I would imagine INTJ women have a very hard time with the way others view their lack of emotions. They do come off as very intimidating. Look at Hillary Clinton, they (fox news) made her into a cold cruel monster, when she (I would hope so) has feelings and emotions underneath like any other woman. Too bad people tend to see only the surface. ---------- Post added 12-19-2010 at 04:26 PM ---------- Maybe you have to allow others to adapt to you. Those who can't hop on board likely were not qualified enough to be of any use to you or you to them. This perception of Invulnerability may serve as a excellent filter. What do you think?

I actually find that this perception of invulnerability is a two-edged sword. I like it as far as dealing with people out in the world, but I find that it is much more detrimental when dealing with intimates and family members.

[ALAMGIR]

I feel the same way.Many family members and many of those of the opposite sex that pique my interest often find my vibe unpleasant or only pleasant in a perfunctory fashion. Oh well. I've notice in certain situations (like church- I don't actually believe in it, or some job where I CANNOT dress snazzy) or after I've been drinking a little (not drunk, and only some sort of brown liquor) my vibe is less pronounced and peoples reactions are less (usually) cold. I guess that Ni is not as strong then (in the case of alcohol)

[iamhuman]

Originally Posted by ALAMGIR To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I feel the same way.Many family members and many of those of the opposite sex that pique my interest often find my vibe unpleasant or only pleasant in a perfunctory fashion. Oh well. I've notice in certain situations (like church- I don't actually believe in it, or some job where I CANNOT dress snazzy) or after I've been drinking a little (not drunk, and only some sort of brown liquor) my vibe is less pronounced and peoples reactions are less (usually) cold. I guess that Ni is not as strong then (in the case of alcohol)

With the general public I prefer to keep my distance, so their reactions to me usually help to achieve this goal. But, I must say that I do care very much about what my family and partner think of me and how I make them feel. Because of this caring on my part and because of my 'very different personality' I find that I am beginning to employ the same distancing tactics with a few family members in order to avoid their dissapproval and subsequent mistreatment of me.

[JCrow]

I can definitely relate to this thread. I am not a very emotional person in general, and also rarely share my true feelings with others(a lot of the time I'm not really even aware of my feelings unless I really reflect on them). As a result, I think a lot of people, even if they've known me for a long time, feel like they don't really know me. I know I come across as distant and emotionless and invulnerable. And those things are all kind of true. The reality is, it is REALLY hard to hurt my feelings or offend me, damn near impossible, so the perception is close to accurate.

Over the past 6 months or so, I've been trying to share more with other people about my past, things that I've gone through, my feelings etc, and I've gotten a really positive reaction. I think people like me a lot more for showing my humanity. Even one of my close friends says my 'vibe' is different.

Maybe its a good exercise for an INTJ to just share with others, its good for you and its good for the person listening. You don't have to share your deepest feelings, but showing something makes people relate to you more and see you as a real person, not a robot.

[irini]

With me happens exactly the opposite. People usually think I'm quite vulnerable (which is of course not true at all). I'm a warm person-that I can identify quite well my feelings and other people's feelings -which helps me to attune myself to them if I want to. It is very surprising for people to realize how easy is for me to keep under control not only my own feelings but also other people's feelings (Of course I'm not an INTJ - I'm more or less quite the opposite- an ENFP)

[MrFlaneur]

No, the total opposite. Pity them.

[56 62 75 1]

i'v had GFs tell me that i seem invunerable.
wut has happened in the past is the gf gets mad and wants me to feel bad but i dnt so she tries to figure out ways to hurt me to get me to feel bad
wut usually happens is she finds sumthin to piss me off and i guess their usually happy wit that

i think they jus want to c sum type of negativ emotion instead of my usual contentment

[Vega]

Originally Posted by ALAMGIR To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It could be said that the more human you appear, the more vulnerable you appear. Do you feel as if when others first meet you, as INTJs tend to not convey human emotions and presence, people(perhaps more so those of the opposite sex) perceive you as invulnerable, at least in most regards? How does this affect your subsequent interactions with this person? Does their attitude towards you change after they get to know you better? I normally like to give some example to contextualize my question but I''l hold off this time and wait for your responses, so as not to convolute the objective nature of the question.

Yes I can fully understand that. My own brother told me that. And apparently it was very intimidating.

[56 62 75 1]

Originally Posted by JCrow To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I can definitely relate to this thread. I am not a very emotional person in general, and also rarely share my true feelings with others(a lot of the time I'm not really even aware of my feelings unless I really reflect on them). As a result, I think a lot of people, even if they've known me for a long time, feel like they don't really know me. I know I come across as distant and emotionless and invulnerable. And those things are all kind of true. The reality is, it is REALLY hard to hurt my feelings or offend me, damn near impossible, so the perception is close to accurate. Over the past 6 months or so, I've been trying to share more with other people about my past, things that I've gone through, my feelings etc, and I've gotten a really positive reaction. I think people like me a lot more for showing my humanity. Even one of my close friends says my 'vibe' is different. Maybe its a good exercise for an INTJ to just share with others, its good for you and its good for the person listening. You don't have to share your deepest feelings, but showing something makes people relate to you more and see you as a real person, not a robot.

man! i can so relate to this.
my prob is that bcuz ppl view me as this rock and bcuz i dnt show a lot of emotion
when sumthin really is botherin me and i express it they dnt take me seriously
they think i'm tryin to manipulate them
it is very frustrating and feels really defeating
u would think that since i dnt cry often the time i do cry would make it that more poingnant.
*shrugs*