[cdbrow1]

Has anybody read those Venus and Mars books that were the big rage a few years ago? I got talked into reading one and was actually surprised at how helpful it was in understanding all those "feeling" people out there. It really was all basic advise that I should have known anyway, but it sort of put it all together for me.
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Discuss.....

[Double Victory]

I did read it, and made a lot of sense. Actually, I quite frequently think about things that I read in that book when I'm talking to people of the opposite gender, and they usually turn out to be quite true. Such as the part where when women complain of a problem a lot of the time they want moral support, and when men complain of a problem a lot of the time they want solutions.

[vkut79]

"Such as the part where when women complain of a problem a lot of the time they want moral support"

You mean emotional support?

God I like being independent.

[Double Victory]

	Originally Posted by vkut79 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	"Such as the part where when women complain of a problem a lot of the time they want moral support" You mean emotional support?

That too.

EDIT:
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[Blendy]

Maybe the Mars-Venus books represent the majority of people out there, but I remember reading them and identifying more with the male perspective (I am a female), and finding them neither applicable nor useful to me, personally. The best "relationship books" I've come across are:

The Seven Principles of Making Marriage Work by John Gottman (an evidence-based perspective)
Anything by Harriet Lerner

[RoyalINTJ]

Venus and Mars is this book about male to female relationships?!... if so i wouldnt trust much on that material... its most of the time just theoretical bs...
The key point to understand male to female dynamics is to realize that both men and woman make the same mistake of thinking that the opposite sex is thinking and viewing life just like them.. This leads to many misdirections... like a lot of men think that their looks are so important to woman (they judge woman mostly about looks) and then we go to woman.. a lot of them are hoping men are interested in their personalities (because woman value good personality more than good looks) when in fact they never are and never will be...

[azelismia]

Originally Posted by RoyalINTJ To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Venus and Mars is this book about male to female relationships?!... if so i wouldnt trust much on that material... its most of the time just theoretical bs... The key point to understand male to female dynamics is to realize that both men and woman make the same mistake of thinking that the opposite sex is thinking and viewing life just like them.. This leads to many misdirections... like a lot of men think that their looks are so important to woman (they judge woman mostly about looks) and then we go to woman.. a lot of them are hoping men are interested in their personalities (because woman value good personality more than good looks) when in fact they never are and never will be...

Theoretical SJ bs. I think it's a case of what came first the book or the person. It seems like people read these things then act them out with self fulfililng prophecy rather than that is because how they actually are. I think these books cause more harm than they do good.

[ShaiGar]

I've never liked books that tried to give advice based who has a Y chromosome. I've known for years that men and women are different, but that's largely based on genitalia than the mind. Men and Men are far more different than me (male) and some women. The exception disproves the rule, and generalities tend towards being wrong.

It's much easier, if you want to understand someone, to understand the Keirsey sorter, and then apply using an understanding of sociology.

RoyalINTJ: I'm much more interested in personality than looks. Admittedly looks is high on my scale as well, but Personality is the decider. Also, a lot of women do base their decision on looks.

[cdbrow1]

I don't think of these books as having any "answers," but they do help me see things in a different way - I think that different view has been helpful to me. In particular how to relate to what women (in general) want (they don't want you to fix thier problems - just to listen to them) was useful. My nature was to try and fix my partners problems and they always backfired.....

[RoyalINTJ]

ShaiGar you are trying to cripple my idea here... there is big diffrence between what you think attracts you and what really do... men judge woman by looks.. its how things work.. sure for some men looks is all they care.. hey if a girl is not gf material you can just have a great night and say bye and its fine by me... but if you wanna build some deep relationships it would be logic that you want her to have a) looks that you find attractive b) personality you would enjoy and would want to get to know better....

But personality is never a decider really... put on a line 5 ugly/fat girls and choose after their personality.. would you choose the less ugly one or less fat one huh? i bet you wouldnt make any choice (i wouldnt) when if you turn this around and there are 5 good looking girls with poor personality you would probably have a decent choice

So in the end for men dominat factor is looks for woman its personality...

[ShaiGar]

	Originally Posted by RoyalINTJ To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	ShaiGar you are trying to cripple my idea here...

Yes I am.

	Originally Posted by RoyalINTJ To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But personality is never a decider really... put on a line 5 ugly/fat girls and choose after their personality.. would you choose the less ugly one or less fat one huh? i bet you wouldnt make any choice (i wouldnt) when if you turn this around and there are 5 good looking girls with poor personality you would probably have a decent choice

Personality is the decider, looks is still a very very big decider.

In Order.

1. Personality
2. Looks
3. Taste and Style
4. Sense of Humour
5. Neurosis's
6. Home/Family Stability

Looks are what I'm first drawn to since that's what I see first, but after a conversation I can be completely turned off.

	Originally Posted by RoyalINTJ To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So in the end for men dominant factor is looks for woman its personality...

Not true for women. I know several women who quite honestly state that for them it's looks, they don't care a whit about personality. Of course, these girls desire only ephemeral relationships. But the exception disproves the rule, particularly in blanket statements.

[RoyalINTJ]

	Originally Posted by cdbrow1 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't think of these books as having any "answers," but they do help me see things in a different way - I think that different view has been helpful to me. In particular how to relate to what women (in general) want (they don't want you to fix thier problems - just to listen to them) was useful. My nature was to try and fix my partners problems and they always backfired.....

well there are books with quite reasonable and advanced answers for human realtionship dynamics from how to get laid to how to have a loving family

but speaking of people unwillingness to solve their problems.. well its a common among whole human race... i mean if somebody would be telling me and great way of solving something i am having difficultties with (not that i need it but its still great to hear a reasonable opinion about something) why wouldnt i want to listen and consider.... if the other person is smarter in some area.. why wouldnt i want to hear what he has to say... its for my own good...





RoyalINTJ added to this post, 31 minutes and 41 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by ShaiGar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Not true for women. I know several women who quite honestly state that for them it's looks, they don't care a whit about personality. Of course, these girls desire only ephemeral relationships. But the exception disproves the rule, particularly in blanket statements.

Thing you should be thinking about is that most woman dont have a logic explanation why they find some men attractive... they think that its their looks when in fact its is what they represent with their looks... the looks project some certain qualities which woman find attractive so its not about looks really its about qualities woman find attractive not even knowing about it....

	Originally Posted by ShaiGar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In Order. 1. Personality 2. Looks 3. Taste and Style 4. Sense of Humour 5. Neurosis's 6. Home/Family Stability

I believe that Taste,Style,Humour and everything else is based from personality so in reality there are 1. Personality 2. Looks
So the ultimate choice is between looks and personality.. tho they are both important and in best case scenario you want a girl who is having great looks and great personality... looks will always come first tho making it more important than personality (personality is still a factor dont get me wrong)

So yeah... i guess i wont prove my point here unless you want to look and understand some different view here about male to female dynamics which would be closer to real world... just sharing and thinking it might help somebody to view things in a more effective way..

[ShaiGar]

no, i'd never accept a girl who had great looks and a terrible personality, though i might accept a girl with a great personality and not so great looks. as long as i wear a blindfold

[schwartzie]

	Originally Posted by RoyalINTJ To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	.... most woman dont have a logic explanation why they find some men attractive... they think that its their looks when in fact its is what they represent with their looks... the looks project some certain qualities which woman find attractive so its not about looks really its about qualities woman find attractive not even knowing about it....

wtf, mate?
This is way off base....

[ShaiGar]

Aye. That's why I love my little quote "The exception disproves the rule". Blanket statements are retarded, as long as ONE exception can be found, the person who didn't bother to add clauses, or specify his statement is proven wrong.

[azelismia]

	Originally Posted by ShaiGar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Aye. That's why I love my little quote "The exception disproves the rule". Blanket statements are retarded, as long as ONE exception can be found, the person who didn't bother to add clauses, or specify his statement is proven wrong.

well, I don't even think it's a case of a lone exception. all the world is exception. these books are meaningless clap trap. They give many different stereotypes that have nothing to do with the individual. at least with mbti it IS based on the individual.

[ShaiGar]

I KNOW it's not a case of the lone exception. However one exception proves it to be nonsense. It's a pity they don't bring out books based on the keirsey sorter... but it's easier to be ignorant, so pop psychologists don't bother thinking.

[Antares]

I must admit I've never read this book, although I know it's devastatingly famous. I never locate myself near that section (the Relationship section in the bookstores). I'm not sure I really want to be seen there, especially by my parents. They would never let me forget it; they love teasing me, and I don't want to give people the wrong impression. I'm not that interested in romantic love, but for the sake of psychology, maybe I should get over myself. It'd do wonders to my reputation if my friends find it on my shelves... It'd ruin my image of a stoic, sarcastic, snarky, sex-condemning (yes, I'm trying alliteration), sagely (ok. I think I'm out of words) critic.

[ShaiGar]

if you want to do that, buy a copy of the kama sutras

[RoyalINTJ]

	Originally Posted by ShaiGar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Aye. That's why I love my little quote "The exception disproves the rule". Blanket statements are retarded, as long as ONE exception can be found, the person who didn't bother to add clauses, or specify his statement is proven wrong.

ohhh my... who cares about exceptions anyway... i assume its obvious there are some people so called "exceptions" and i dont bother talking about them because its basicly useless... if you wanna get some result you have to understand how most people think/act so it would be easy for you to adjust your expressions and end up with what you want...
So anyway i usually say what i mean so it might sound aggressive or something but i am not really trying to offend anyone here... just try to think open minded here... hey most woman to what i wrote gonna say hey you are wrong.. its not like that when the matter of fact is they dont know really how this whole thing work for them... (some do.. some girls more or less realize how things work and can accept that most of their actions in relationships are without any logic at all... which is not a bad thing... logic have its advantage and feelings/emotions has their advantages.... fair game)

[schwartzie]

	Originally Posted by Antares To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It'd ruin my image of a stoic, sarcastic, snarky, sex-condemning (yes, I'm trying alliteration), sagely (ok. I think I'm out of words) critic.

umm...maybe try the public library first, so you don't waste your money on a gimmicky thing that might leave you labelled: spendthrift, silly, supercilious, sophomoric, spineless, slave-to-fashion, soap-opratic, sexist, stoopit....
(sry, I think that while big happy books like this may cast a shadow, the general shape of which looks right, when applied in any actual real circumstance, the generalizations distort more than clarify reality.)

I'll venture a recommendation for Mary Roach's Bonk: The Curious Coupling of Science and Sex.

[ShaiGar]

	Originally Posted by RoyalINTJ To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	ohhh my... who cares about exceptions anyway... i assume its obvious there are some people so called "exceptions" and i dont bother talking about them because its basicly useless... if you wanna get some result you have to understand how most people think/act so it would be easy for you to adjust your expressions and end up with what you want...

You made a blanket statement. If you want to be right you do NOT make generalisations.

[ShaiGar]

	Originally Posted by RoyalINTJ To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	pfff ShaiGar you make no sense at all.... whats your problem?! who cares if i make generalisations or not... its not about who is right or wrong here or is it? i am just saying how things work.. thats all.... ohh wow you are an ENTP... thought its INTJ only forums... no wonder you are trying to object me so much....

Yes, I am an ENTP. No this is not an INTJ-Only forum. Else the NFs, SJs, and other members of the NT subgroup would not be here.

I don't care if you make generalisations. But be prepared to back up your words unless they are a joke. Generalisations are rarely if ever made by academics because the academic community is much like the INTJforum community, ready to knock your argument to pieces if you're wrong.

I have no problem with you, but perhaps being less emotional might be a good starting point for you to get this conversation back onto a point where you stand a chance of winning.

"It's not about who is right or wrong, I'm just saying how things work" Well obviously it's about who is right or wrong when you are trying to state something as a matter of Fact. Facts are Right. Always. If facts are not right, then they are wrong, and they are not facts.

[RoyalINTJ]

Well thing is i dont need to back up my words or win something here... i know what i know... so if you are not willing to see my point here well then its you who is missing information.. i am good.. i know all this and by sharing what i know i am just trying to help others... thats all ... you win

[ShaiGar]

Right... Because personalities and choices are based on what we have between our legs. good going.