[guitarguy]

About a year and a half ago, I (INTJ) met an ENFP girl in one of my college classes. Back then I wasn't really interested in dating but this girl really intrigued me, due to her ease of expressing her feelings which I found interesting. But after a month or two, we just hung out a lot, studied together and did all nighters. I guess you could say she really enjoyed being with me, and helping me. It was so weird how I connected so well with a girl for the first time, but it happened. But yeah, after classes she would wait outside for me with another friend and we would go out for some coffee or lunch. As the quarter ended, I went to study abroad and she followed along because her family lived there. During my 2 months there, I studied there and we just hung out a lot there. Long story short, there was this one night where I was feeling a little emotional and I wanted to express somethings with her. At this night, I wanted to set what our "relationship" was because during our time there, we've held hands and what not and just setting what things are, I feel like I'd be more comfortable with what boundaries I can pass. But yeah we decided to just stay as friends that not because I was just so confused about my feelings, as I didn't know what they were and if I really liked her or not. It's one of those things where it's like it doesn't reach that mark or being in a relationship or being just friends, it's like in between. But we decided to stay as friends, and she got emotional...going to the bathroom 2 times. (In my assumption to let out her tears and emotions which seemed somewhat obvious) That night I just felt so lonely and empty.....

But 2 days later, she calls me...drunk...it's kind of a habit for her to drink to let our her feelings and to give her courage. But yeah she just let out all her emotions on me and we then decided to go out.

We went our for 3 months, but we broke up because my feelings were just so confused. She broke up with me and I was sort of fine with it because I felt like it wouldn't do much for me. But she wanted to cut it short before things would get worse in the future. After a couple days though I asked her out again because loneliness started to kick in, but I said some stuff about her not having to hang out with certain guys (because during our relationship she would hang out one on one with another guy and it bothered me) but she didn't like that topic being brought up so it just ended short.

It's been a year since then, but still my feelings linger, confused and I HATE it so much because I can't make a decision about things. I've actually tried dealing things with her with maybe things working out again but she would just get emotional and very exaggerative about things, making things almost impossible for things to work out. But as I withdraw, she would come back to me in a way. Being around me or what not, talking to my friends. (What I'm thinking what she really wanted was for me to beg....but..I just can't do that) Anyways for the past year, she changed towards going to my church, and she talks with all of the girl friends that I have. Even when I hung out with one of her girlfriends, she told her that she should've told my ex that she was with me. Just stuff that I hear still keeps my mind that shes still interested in me, and that she just follows me around.

It really was special...but at the time I was so naive and I took the friendship for granted. Since then I've had many depressive moments that I wish that I will NEVER go through again, which is another reason with why I'm afraid to commit to her again. But people talk about us about how it looked so good, and the church knows about us. It's just so awkward now...you know with INTJ's and awkwardness, it's just not worth it on my part if we can't communicate. But still my feelings linger and I don't know what to do, but I'm afraid of the outcome.

I can't initiate with much, it's hard coming up with stuff to talk about but I wish things were easier. She never initiates to me which makes it even more harder because she was usually the one talking, but now were just awkward. I guess my question is that could things be better in the future? How do I deal with this ENFP? Shes just always around me and it's hard of getting over her when she's always there.

[Sarcast]

Wow it appeared as if you had everything in your hands. As in some random girl showing interest without you looking(that is always the best). I would say it really depends on how you two currently feel about the situation and in what direction you two which to take it. I do get the feeling though that this person was indeed "special". Just the fact that she followed you abroad. I'm with you with the whole" not begging", I rather be miserable than beg, but hey, whatever makes you feel good right?

All in all it seems both parties appeared slow to react on how they felt, and spent more energy interpreting what they believe they felt. Similar to a situation I had in the past which is why I am fairly confident in my deduction.

[esperanza]

You sound a bit confused, OP...

	Originally Posted by guitarguy
	I guess my question is that could things be better in the future? How do I deal with this ENFP? Shes just always around me and it's hard of getting over her when she's always there.

What do you want? From her? For yourself?

I'd hazard a guess that she can read you pretty well, and she can tell where you're at. She hangs around because she's still interested, and she can sense that there's something between you worth exploring. She doesn't initiate because she can tell your feelings are unresolved and doesn't want to put pressure on you. She also probably doesn't want to push you, but wants to make it obvious to you that she's quite open to the idea of working things out with you, one way or another. Put simply, I don't think you'll need to beg. I'd put money on it. She keeps some distance out of respect, I think. There's probably also the fact that any real resolution is impossible until you sort out your feelings - that seems to be where the relationship is falling down...so she may feel that there is little else she can do, but is letting you know that when/if you do sort your feelings out, she's still around.

Some questions: What are you afraid of? Why can't you make a decision about things? What things are you trying to make a decision about? What do you mean by "she gets emotional and exaggerative about things" when you try to work them out? Why do you think she gets like this?

[guitarguy]

Thanks for the response
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Much appreciated.

Well what I wanted at first from the beginning was that we maybe start out as friends. And maybe from our friendship, work towards a relationship. I just want her to open to the idea and I've asked her before about 7 months ago if she still had feelings for me. But she responded that her feelings were gone and that she wanted me to lose hope in the relationship. Hearing this though, gave me an emotional response, feeling lost and hopeless about my feelings. From this she responded with sympathy saying that we should be friends. From this we tried talking to each other at church but we just couldn't meet up....awkward moments would come up. In the end it just makes me feel like things are pointless because why work towards a relationship knowing how hard things are. We can't talk anymore as we used to, so if we can't talk and have conversations, whats the point? I asked her one day about starting as friends, but she didn't want anything and that there's nothing for us to work on and that "time and prayer will heal everything." I just can't commit towards moving on to a relationship because it's been so long since I've been with her. I guess you could say that I felt that this was a stepping stone to maybe getting there, but she wouldn't accept any of it.

I feel like I just have all this baggage of pain that I carry now...So many times I've told myself that I will forget about this and I have to accept the way things are, but still nights come up when I feel lonely and she comes up in my mind, wishing that somehow things could get better.

What are you afraid of?
I'm afraid of being rejected again...and again. Ever since we broke up, she hasn't initiated once and I've tried talking with her, but she doesn't accept my advance. It's only recently that we've talked because she wanted to talk to me about something. After she said she wanted to, she backs off, which honestly kind of pissed me off. I thought maybe she was playing games with me, playing hard to get with me. But I'm really not here to play games with her anymore because it is so emotionally draining. And if it did work out, can it still work out? I just can't give her the right responses all the time....because she needs certain things at certain times, I just can't read her and act how to act in the situations. My timing is so bad...

Why can't you make a decision about things?
My feelings are confused..."do i like her?" "is this love? if so why is that I've never felt happiness and it's been so negative thus far?" we can't talk straight anymore. Plus her decisions are so flaky...she keeps on changing her mind about how things should be. When I've wanted to reconcile with her, she didn't want to. But when she wanted to work certain things with me (recently wanted to talk to me about not speaking about our relationship with other people) she comes to me. She said to me there's nothing for us to cooperate, but when we talked, she said she doesn't remember ever saying that, which is a lie.

I'm just so confused with what to do. My feelings are hard to keep in and it wears me out having to get out there over and over putting on my poker face, acting as if nothings okay. But my friends can tell that I'm still not okay with it...they won't even believe me when I say that I'm over it. It's even hard to trust my friends because I feel like there working around our relationship, working with her. So many people just know about us, it makes me uncomfortable.

[Sarcast]

	Originally Posted by guitarguy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Thanks for the response To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Much appreciated. I am confused.

I will be frank, I would be too and I would be posting for help as well.

[freeeekyyy]

Showing some concern and love for the other person can go a long way towards restoring a relationship, especially with an ENFP. Spend some time with her. Inititiate the contact, don't expect her to. Show her that you really do care about her and aren't just "using" her, and that can have a dramatic impact. I say this from experience.

That is, if you are indeed interested. You need to determine that. Do you love her?

[yisit]

Originally Posted by guitarguy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm afraid of being rejected again...and again. Ever since we broke up, she hasn't initiated once and I've tried talking with her, but she doesn't accept my advance. It's only recently that we've talked because she wanted to talk to me about something. After she said she wanted to, she backs off, which honestly kind of pissed me off. I thought maybe she was playing games with me, playing hard to get with me. But I'm really not here to play games with her anymore because it is so emotionally draining. And if it did work out, can it still work out? I just can't give her the right responses all the time....because she needs certain things at certain times, I just can't read her and act how to act in the situations. My timing is so bad...

I'm an ENFP...I suspect this girl fears the same thing you do...rejection. ENFP's hate rejection almost more than anything else in the world...

Originally Posted by guitarguy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My feelings are confused..."do i like her?" "is this love? if so why is that I've never felt happiness and it's been so negative thus far?" we can't talk straight anymore. Plus her decisions are so flaky...she keeps on changing her mind about how things should be. When I've wanted to reconcile with her, she didn't want to. But when she wanted to work certain things with me (recently wanted to talk to me about not speaking about our relationship with other people) she comes to me. She said to me there's nothing for us to cooperate, but when we talked, she said she doesn't remember ever saying that, which is a lie.

Your ENFP is probably changing her mind because she is also confused; she's probably finding you difficult, if not impossible, to read and so she's making up all sorts of things in her head...and probably jumping to negative conclusions...without any feedback from you, she'll be filling in the gaps herself...it's a form of self-protection.

	Originally Posted by guitarguy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm just so confused with what to do. My feelings are hard to keep in.

Just tell her how you feel. You'll find you won't be confused anymore - once you articulate your feelings to her, you'll find it's all pretty cut and dried.

You're just afraid of being rejected, but even if she does reject you, that has to be better than continuing on for months, maybe years, wondering...expressing your feelings is the only way to move forward in a situation like this.

All the best...ENFP's are generally very forgiving when people talk to us and tell us how they really feel...we live for people to tell us stuff like this...x

[guitarguy]

I tried talking with her today asking if she could help me out with something, she responds asking what it is I need help for. I respond asking if she could help me sort out my feelings. She doesn't respond back to me. I then backlash saying stuff about she needs to be more direct with me and her having to always leave open questions in the air is bothering me. This isn't the first time she's just stopped in the middle of things, leaving open questions. It's as if she wants to go on knowing that there are no answers to anything, but then I'd figure that if she was over with things, that she'd be able to cooperate well with me, maybe help me out or support me. But she's being questionable about everything, giving a little and taking back. It's like as if she's playing a game with me.

Anyways I've decided that I'm not going to deal with this anymore. Whenever she becomes cold, I become emotional and I try to get her approval and end up HAVING to submit to her. It's like as if she tests me to see how far I would go for her. But then when I go cold, she starts crawling back, hanging out with the people I'm up and initiating. I can't deal with this anymore and it's done...it's going to be my decision and I'm cutting the line. Our relationship just won't go anywhere...

[Sarcast]

smart man. No one did say you had to learn the language of "women". I'd personally had gave up still hoping about the whole thing, but at the same time regretting my choice.

[ricearoni]

	Originally Posted by guitarguy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I respond asking if she could help me sort out my feelings..

Huh?

	I then backlash saying stuff about she needs to be more direct with me and her having to always leave open questions in the air is bothering me.

Whaaat???

First off, why are you asking her to sort out your feelings? Considering your past history with her, this is kind of awkward. She doesn't know if you're asking about the two of you, you and some other girl or just feelings in general. Second, why in the world are you flipping out on her like that? I understand that it's awkward to ask for help and then be left hanging, but flipping out on the person you want help from...isn't going to yield results.

I think you need to clarify on your own what you want from the girl. If you want to be with her, then I recommend apologizing for your behavior and let her know that you were feeling kind of vulnerable and when she dropped off like that, it made you feel like crap (if that was the case, i'm just assuming that's what you were feeling based on the way you reacted).

As for the relationship talk...I'd wait a little while for her to get over you flipping out on her.

[esperanza]

guitarguy, I know you guys aren't the same type, but how would you feel if you were in her position? I mean in relation to the whole saga, not just your last conversation with her - but that too.

When I am trying to figure someone out, I tend to start by putting myself in their shoes. Then I think about what they might see differently from me, due to personality differences etc.

[guitarguy]

Ok...backlash is a hard word I used...let me rephrase with what happened. When it comes down to sorting out my feelings, I wanted to ask her if she could help ease my anxiety when I'm around her. Maybe talk about my feelings towards her and see how she feels about it. I can't talk about love with her or anything because it's been so long since we've talked, face to face. We can only like chat or text, but we cannot see each other face to face because she avoids the situation, especially on one on one confrontation. I wanted to make things easier for us because were around each other a lot and we hang around the same friends. I said I wanted to sort out my feelings because I felt that if I were to put myself on the lower level, it will give her more self confidence. I didn't want to in any way give her any vulnerability by talking about her, I wanted to simply rationalize and take things slowly about dealing with my feelings and perhaps making things easier for us. And this girl is purposefully NOT wanting to bring understanding with us. By saying this, I always have to be on the under hand of having to submit to her, go along with her ambiguity, and just say "ok" or "yes" to her. But when I ask for her understanding, she just bashes on my character leaving me to only hurt my integrity and say that "i was wrong." I do understand where this girl is coming from but she is not understanding me. Keep in mind that when I backlashed, I did it in a very caring, slow, and directive manner. I am not controlling her, I was just asking her what she could do better to help making communication better for us because of our differences, for instance, being more direct with me.

[OJIScudbone]

Just act like she doesn't exist if you and her aren't willing to compromise on how to interact with one another. Why do you even want to have any type of relationship with her? You shouldn't have any expectations of her, since your only relationship is through mutual friends.

You missed the chance when she came abroad with you. You seem to have some insecurities about yourself that you need to work on, or find a partner that you can trust.

Confronting her about hanging out with other guys after you already broke up was a big mistake. This created an image in her mind that you are "needy". Which is most likely why she wants you to "beg and submit".

[Sarcast]

Give up, pull away, regroup, confront at a later time when you guys are willing to laugh at this.

[guitarguy]

I have never confronted her about seeing other guys, in fact shes now friends with all my guy and girl friends. I was insecure about it though before we break-up but after we broke up, she started hanging out with 2 of my best guy friends right after. Of course I found this questionable but I didn't do anything about it. Recently I was actually studying with some of her girl friends (which they aren't even close friends) and heard that my ex talked with them about how they should've told her that they were studying with me. And the whole begging thing, I think it's for the sake of her pride and her security in the relationship. Plus she never initiates to me, just works around me with her friends and her presence.

I'm not perfect, neither is she, perhaps our compatibility just isn't matching. Or not the right time....but I'm going to give a lot of it. She's still going to be hanging around...might as well deal with it.

[freeeekyyy]

Originally Posted by guitarguy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I have never confronted her about seeing other guys, in fact shes now friends with all my guy and girl friends. I was insecure about it though before we break-up but after we broke up, she started hanging out with 2 of my best guy friends right after. Of course I found this questionable but I didn't do anything about it. Recently I was actually studying with some of her girl friends (which they aren't even close friends) and heard that my ex talked with them about how they should've told her that they were studying with me. And the whole begging thing, I think it's for the sake of her pride and her security in the relationship. Plus she never initiates to me, just works around me with her friends and her presence. I'm not perfect, neither is she, perhaps our compatibility just isn't matching. Or not the right time....but I'm going to give a lot of it. She's still going to be hanging around...might as well deal with it.

You need to back off from her. If she actually is still interested in you, which it sounds like she may be, it'll help to make her realize, which should hopefully lead to change.

[Brion]

Invite her to read this forum post.... I think she will be receptive... There is great chemistry between the types and I think you both should give it a true good shot and see... nothing ventured nothing gained...

[intjdude]

Yeah, I say let it go. Your situation isn't working here and she doesn't seem all that keen. Find someone else.

[guitarguy]

Time has passed since my last endeavor with this girl...
I feel like were at this point where were just...awkward now. I figured not talking to her simply really clears a lot of problems with her and with me not interacting with her anymore = no more problems. We work in seperate in ministrys at our church but there have been events recently due to Christmas and new years coming up where our ministries will be be joint. Through those times she hasn't been coming out, although her best friend has been coming out. I figured she kind of figured things out with whats going on and is perhaps keeping distance from me now. This is my simple response but too much time and stuff has passed by and really this is something that I will live with, despite even with all the relationships she has made around my community. Things have calmed down around here....

But still feelings still come up. Feelings of hurt, confusion, and helplessness with dealing with this issue, because I can't do anything about it besides give it time and space. But in the end I think to myself, will it all really fade away? I don't know how much time we'll need til things will all be forgotten and forgiven. I can tell when she is hurting as well because I am 'receptive' to others feelings. She told me before that when things are going well and she isn't stressing out, she doesn't get sick, and especially during our time together she was fine, but after our break up...she has consistenly been sick. This is from hearing from other people. I've been seeing a lot of other people as well so as far as me being available to the public is not a problem. In fact I've already met a couple girls since our break up, but it just hasn't had that 'click' yet. This click in fact feels like a dream and almost impossible for me.

Perhaps this just needs more time...?

[Zsych]

Sounds more like a question of whether you really have a good reason to hold back and if you can't come up with one. Try jumping in (if you still can)

[timatron]

	Originally Posted by guitarguy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Anyways I've decided that I'm not going to deal with this anymore. Whenever she becomes cold, I become emotional and I try to get her approval and end up HAVING to submit to her. It's like as if she tests me to see how far I would go for her

here lies your problem. NEVER submit to her or any girl for that matter. It's not a test to see how far you would go for her. It's a test to see how strong you are as a man and whether you can resist her and whether you can keep your cool.

	Originally Posted by guitarguy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But then when I go cold, she starts crawling back, hanging out with the people I'm up and initiating. ....

Can you see the pattern?!
You become emotional.. she runs away... you become rational.. she comes running back
Please bitchslap yourself about now. you'll thank me later.

It's not about being cold though. You can get the same response from her just by being indifferent to her (at least intially) and her emotions. Just take a minute to remember how you acted around her when you originally met. Were you needy and clingy then? I doubt it. This behaviour repels girls faster than a serial killer. Just withdraw from her for a while, even if she is proximally close (such as at church), consolidate yourself, and become your original, confident, nonchalent self before you stuffed things up (hey I stuffed these thigns up many times in exactly the same way you are so i know the feeling). If you do this she will come running back so fast you wont know what hit you. but you have to maintain your confident rational self as much as you can even while dating her longterm. FOREVER in fact.

hope you dont mind my tough love

[eliza]

honestly, it feels to me as though she is playing with your emotions and not worth it. If you have never felt happiness with her, and everything is negative, then it is not love. don't worry about it, everybody does this once or twice in their lifetime, but if she's never made you happy, no matter how wonderful of a person she may be, she's just not for you. this is sort of a do as i say not as i do sort of situation, and it will be hard because i'm sure that she think that she has feelings for you as well, but remember the most important thing; that the person that you are with should make you happy. I say, she's not worth it, and the whole time she seems very flaky and cruel, and with some sort of other agenda. So don't deal with it, and try to move on.

[dogwoodlover]

Originally Posted by guitarguy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Time has passed since my last endeavor with this girl... I feel like were at this point where were just...awkward now. I figured not talking to her simply really clears a lot of problems with her and with me not interacting with her anymore = no more problems. We work in seperate in ministrys at our church but there have been events recently due to Christmas and new years coming up where our ministries will be be joint. Through those times she hasn't been coming out, although her best friend has been coming out. I figured she kind of figured things out with whats going on and is perhaps keeping distance from me now. This is my simple response but too much time and stuff has passed by and really this is something that I will live with, despite even with all the relationships she has made around my community. Things have calmed down around here.... But still feelings still come up. Feelings of hurt, confusion, and helplessness with dealing with this issue, because I can't do anything about it besides give it time and space. But in the end I think to myself, will it all really fade away? I don't know how much time we'll need til things will all be forgotten and forgiven. I can tell when she is hurting as well because I am 'receptive' to others feelings. She told me before that when things are going well and she isn't stressing out, she doesn't get sick, and especially during our time together she was fine, but after our break up...she has consistenly been sick. This is from hearing from other people. I've been seeing a lot of other people as well so as far as me being available to the public is not a problem. In fact I've already met a couple girls since our break up, but it just hasn't had that 'click' yet. This click in fact feels like a dream and almost impossible for me. Perhaps this just needs more time...?

Originally Posted by timatron To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

here lies your problem. NEVER submit to her or any girl for that matter. It's not a test to see how far you would go for her. It's a test to see how strong you are as a man and whether you can resist her and whether you can keep your cool. Can you see the pattern?! You become emotional.. she runs away... you become rational.. she comes running back Please bitchslap yourself about now. you'll thank me later. It's not about being cold though. You can get the same response from her just by being indifferent to her (at least intially) and her emotions. Just take a minute to remember how you acted around her when you originally met. Were you needy and clingy then? I doubt it. This behaviour repels girls faster than a serial killer. Just withdraw from her for a while, even if she is proximally close (such as at church), consolidate yourself, and become your original, confident, nonchalent self before you stuffed things up (hey I stuffed these thigns up many times in exactly the same way you are so i know the feeling). If you do this she will come running back so fast you wont know what hit you. but you have to maintain your confident rational self as much as you can even while dating her longterm. FOREVER in fact. hope you dont mind my tough love

This guy stole the words out of my mouth.


Backing off is all you can do. If you want to be together with her again, you have to back off, and if you don't, you have to back off. Keep remaining aloof and just go about living your life. If there's still any lingering interest on her end, she'll come back around, eventually.

	I always have to be on the under hand of having to submit to her, go along with her ambiguity, and just say "ok" or "yes" to her.

This is called a test. A harsh fact of life is that most women will try at some point or another to simply grind you under their boot. The nicest, sweetest women will try to crush you because they want to see how strong of a man you are. You have to respond in the affirmative in these situations. You cannot let yourself be subjugated, unless if you want to lose that woman's respect and affection. When she presents herself and is being difficult, you never beg, plead, go along with or otherwise compromise yourself. You walk away.

[catzmeow]

Originally Posted by dogwoodlover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

A harsh fact of life is that most women will try at some point or another to simply grind you under their boot. The nicest, sweetest women will try to crush you because they want to see how strong of a man you are. You have to respond in the affirmative in these situations. You cannot let yourself be subjugated, unless if you want to lose that woman's respect and affection. When she presents herself and is being difficult, you never beg, plead, go along with or otherwise compromise yourself. You walk away.

I will say that one of the more appealing aspects of an INTJ is knowing that you can't do this to them. I've crushed quite a few men over the course of my lifetime. But, I've never tried these little games with my INTJ guy. HE WOULD WALK. He would never come crawling to me. And frankly, I wouldn't want a man who needed me to do that, either.

Don't grovel for a woman. EVER. (Ditto, for the women...don't crawl for a man). Not allowing yourself to be made a doormat shows a level of self-respect that is desirable.

[guitarguy]

Thanks for the responses everyone
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This experience has been tiring, confusing, and hurtful, but I guess it's all about learning and taking the most out of these. I'm 21 and this was my first real relationship so perhaps in the future, these will hopefully be easier to deal with maturity and wisdom. I've gone through two other relationships in middle and high school, but going into college, its a different thing.....

Bringing this up to be dealt with has been helpful
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
It's nice getting some feedback about this stuff.