[HousesOfApollo]

Alright, I don't think any of this is scientific; it is, however, an idea based on many things that I have observed in my own life. I am posting this idea for the sake of validating my experiences with others--to see if there is a common truth to all this. I may just be writing this to get this off my mind. It's not based on any one particular psychological theory, but it is a momentary application of everything I currently know about psychology in an attempt to better understand the world in which I live:

Now, I am something of a strong introvert, and suspect that I always have been. I distinctly remember not playing with the other children during recess in school; instead, I would sit on the sidelines and watch the other children play, observing them. Couple this with a limited ability to emote, and you have a recipe for inadvertent child abuse.

I believe that much of the cruelty I experienced from my teachers, my schoolmates and my parents may have a lot to do with the the traits of Thinking and Introversion.

My relationship with my parents was, simply put, confusing, as it would seem that they would love me one moment, and then do things that made me suffer the next. For example, they would often chastise me for being the social pariah I've always been. They would force me into social situations and accuse me of being an evil problem child; but then again they'd be very nice and understanding, too. It's more like they just disregarded my suffering entirely. I distinctly remember a bought of extreme childhood depression when I positively hated my parents. As a small child, I couldn't understand how these people--who supposedly loved me--could let me suffer so horribly. Now, in retrospect, I realized that I never said anything about being depressed; I never communicated my pitiful state to anyone else. My parents are nearly stereotypical F-types.

Well, I had to try and understand this, and I came to the conclusion that I suffered an awful lot because I was unable to make others empathize with me. I came across (and perhaps still do) as something like a robot in the Uncanny Valley. A bad actor in the movie of life, unable to convince anyone of his sincerity.

He is what Wikipedia says about the Uncanny Valley that I find relevant to this post:

"On the other hand, if the entity is "almost human", then the non-human characteristics will be the ones that stand out, leading to a feeling of "strangeness" in the human viewer. In sum, a robot stuck inside the uncanny valley is no longer being judged by the standards of a robot doing a good job at pretending to be human, but is instead being judged by the standards of a human doing a terrible job at acting like a normal person." --
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By no means am I trying to excuse those who would abuse a child--it is abhorrent on ethical grounds. What I am trying to do is differentiate between sadistic and genuine abuse and crappy things that people did to me just because they weren't capable of empathizing with me as they would with a more open, emotionally expressive child.

An introvert who is more emotionally expressive, I suspect, wouldn't usually endure this inadvertent kind of abuse because the emotional expressiveness would give the child a means to engage the empathy of others--in a sense manipulating them into showing respect. They seem to have a talent for breaking through their own introversion by means of their emotional needs.

I don't think that most people do the right thing for ethical reasons--the right thing to them is what their empathy tells them is right. The gut feeling is what matters.

I distinctly remember a conversation I had with my brother about why people seemed to care a little less about cats being abused than dogs being abused. The only reason that made sense to me was that cats have less in common with humans than dogs do. Dogs are more social animals, and are in general less aloof than cats are. They run up to you, express happiness in your presence, and win you over to their side. Cats are more, well, introverted and aloof. [I've never identified with either cats or dogs. I identify with the Siamese Fighting Fish more than any other animal.]

Even now, as an adult, I notice a different standard with regard to how others treat me. In general, people will say nastier, meaner, and more disrespectful things to me than they would to anyone else. Now, it's not as though I have a thin skin--far from it--but I am very much offended when someone passive-aggressively regards me as though I were something less than human, and not deserving of the same respect that he/she would show for anyone else. This double-standard I abhor more than the content of the insult itself. I am noticing this more than usual right now, and I'm fairly combative.

To make a long story short, it took a great deal of effort for me to even begin to think of myself as a human being. My primary childhood fantasies were identity-based; I thought of myself as either an android or an alien. That was my childish way of understanding the reason why people treated me the crappy way they did. This is my adult way of understanding. I'm open to other ways of understanding.

So, does any of this resonate with you guys? Or do I just have rotten luck? Or, just perhaps, am I really a soulless monster?

Thoughts and opinions are welcome.
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. Sorry if this seemed a little long.

[As a note on my own level of introversion: earlier on in childhood I was nearly diagnosed with autism. I read about a similar kind of abuse towards autistic children, but a lot worse; I wouldn't compare my childhood to an autistic's.]

[I know this is similar to the Bullied thread. I decided that this idea dealt with issues that were sufficiently different to warrant a different thread. And, as usual, I searched and perused almost the entire forum looking for a similar thread, and failed to find one. If there was a thread a lot like this, I apologize.]

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Can you tell me how you define child abuse? I mean from the adults in your life.

[catd]

I agree with what you have said. I think it's just that if you act like you don't (or appear not to) have feelings, people treat you like you don't have any feelings. Is it child abuse? It is to the child.

[ChrisnOrbit]

I am very sorry about the things you had to go through. Human beings can be really harsh sometimes...I would like to say I can relate but I have no clue how it makes you feel. You aren't an alien and its pretty obvious that you have feelings... you just can't express them.
My mother is a very strong T and I am a very very strong F. We really have a hard time understanding each other and the opposite of your experiences happened to me. She couldn't empathize with me when I brought her my problems. She couldn't understand how someone could be so "dramatic" and it caused alot of problems. Even more so because I am a boy. There were only a few instances of abuse I went through with her but I feel that anyone can raise any child. Well, by anyone I mean any type. Some people are more open minded than others and its just hard for some people to understand people like me or you. It might just be the introversion...I'm not sure.
What I do know is that you don't deserve to be treated that way. Even if it doesn't hurt you now, it starts to build up and that stress is unhealthy. All i can suggest you do is assert yourself (sorry I can't do any better than that!) and part of being assertive is getting your thoughts and feelings across effectively.
At the end of the day I think we can agree that people are ignorant, regardless of type, and others have a harder time fitting into society because of it. I hope you can find something that works for you.

[lordrrr]

I was abused by my father as a child, but he took counseling and the abuse let up as I grew up more. However, he still had a very bad temper and would beat me, this lasted until I was in I believe 5th grade, then the beating stopped. It still happens from time to time but it is very rare. He didn't beat me because I was bad socially (which I actually wasn't too bad growing up, but I definantly preferred my time to myself), but because he had a very short temper and also because his own father did it. My parents never got a divorce though, but my mom threatened to if he didn't get counseling, which he did.

[HousesOfApollo]

	Originally Posted by vaguely dissatisfied To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Can you tell me how you define child abuse? I mean from the adults in your life.

Mostly just emotional and mental abuse. Being confused about the motives of all the adults in my life made me very paranoid and isolated. This paranoia and isolation made me even less sympathetic and then the abuse continued in a vicious cycle.

That said, it's still very murky whether or not any of this constitutes abuse. Perhaps it'll be best to call it "being made to suffer." The intentions of my parents and caregivers were so murky to me, but I could never prove that they really wanted to hurt me. I mean, I was never physically abused beyond the occasional spanking or whatever.

Maybe a couple times I was slapped, but I usually managed to sneak a slap back in and then run off.

	Originally Posted by catd To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I agree with what you have said. I think it's just that if you act like you don't (or appear not to) have feelings, people treat you like you don't have any feelings. Is it child abuse? It is to the child.

Yes, and my point is that they tend to do it on instinct. Even people who know me very well and aren't overtly hostile to me sometimes slip and say dehumanizing things about me. Even they are in denial of it, but I can see it quite plainly.

I think it's because I think and feel things that sort of border on the edges of common human experience. Some of the more enlightened members of the species can manage to understand, but most don't. When I try to explain it, I tell them that I'm going somewhere that they can't follow.

In the rare occasion that I do get treated like a human, I don't know how to respond. I just go, "What?"

Originally Posted by ChrisnOrbit To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I am very sorry about the things you had to go through. Human beings can be really harsh sometimes...I would like to say I can relate but I have no clue how it makes you feel. You aren't an alien and its pretty obvious that you have feelings... you just can't express them. My mother is a very strong T and I am a very very strong F. We really have a hard time understanding each other and the opposite of you experiences happened to me. She couldn't empathize with me when I brought her my problems. She couldn't understand how someone could be so "dramatic" and it caused alot of problems. Even more so because I am a boy. There were only a few instances of abuse I went through with her but I feel that anyone can raise any child. Well, by anyone I mean any type. Some people are more open minded than others and its just hard for some people to understand people like me or you. It might just be the introversion...I'm not sure. What I do know is that you don't deserve to be treated that way. Even if it doesn't hurt you now, it starts to build up and that stress is unhealthy. All i can suggest you do is assert yourself (sorry I can't do any better than that!) and part of being assertive is getting your thoughts and feelings across effectively. At the end of the day I think we can agree that people are ignorant, regardless of type, and others have a harder time fitting into society because of it. I hope you can find something that works for you.

I try to reach out and communicate with people who are very different from me because of this hard-learned childhood lesson. My life may one day depend on being able to communicate.

They have to at least meet me half-way, though, because there's only so much anyone can bend. The overly emotional people will gain my respect by listening to me, and if they make the effort to understand the validity of my breakdown and analysis, I'll try to understand them, too.

If they want to try and perpetuate the status quo that I've suffered under my entire life, however, then I probably won't give them the time of day. Not be cruel, though, but merely shrewd. I have an instinct that tells me what battles I can win.

At least I've matured beyond attacking everyone who reminded me of the emotional-yet-callous tyrants of my youth. I used to be especially mean to touchy-feely men, and over touchy-feely women. After reviewing some of the hostile encounters that I've had over the years, I've come to realize that sometimes I've actually been the aggressor and have violated my own ethical standards for no justifiable reason other than my own bitterness.

After much analysis, I discovered that people who really ticked me off the most were people whose personality profiles were, in general, similar to either one of my parent's. So I guess it could be said that I discriminated, and said all the nasty things to those strangers that I could never say as a child to the people who really frustrated me the most.

Now that I'm over that, it's much better to be alive.

Originally Posted by lordrrr To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I was abused by my father as a child, but he took counseling and the abuse let up as I grew up more. However, he still had a very bad temper and would beat me, this lasted until I was in I believe 5th grade, then the beating stopped. It still happens from time to time but it is very rare. He didn't beat me because I was bad socially (which I actually wasn't too bad growing up, but I definantly preferred my time to myself), but because he had a very short temper and also because his own father did it. My parents never got a divorce though, but my mom threatened to if he didn't get counseling, which he did.

Do onto others as others have done unto you, I suppose. My dad is an obvious F-type, but my grandpa is a definite IxTJ (I suspect ISTJ, though, because my grandpa doesn't believe in anything that doesn't hit him over the head; he is the most grounded person I have ever known). So my dad, like me, had to grow up with a father who didn't understand him. If I ever have a kid of my own, I swear that I'll break that tradition. Even if the kid turns out to be just like Richard Simmons, I'll figure out a way to do it.
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.

My grandpa is a real role model for me, though. I suspect that I get the majority of my personality traits from him, with the exception of strong Intuition, which I think I have because I'm left-handed. There are a lot of things that he did in his life that I find very admirable. He quit smoking cold turkey on the first try. He taught himself all the mathematics he needed to know to work as a contractor; he knew what he needed to do, and he did it. I once asked him about his experiences in World War II, and he just told me the brutal, un-romanticized truth: "We just killed japs before the japs could kill us."

Those were simpler times. Back in those days, I think the "strong, silent types" were better appreciated. No one tried to drug my grandpa because he didn't fit some mass media ideal of "outgoing and happy." He's intelligent in a very nuts and bolts way.

My grandmother has all the traits of Paranoid Personality Disorder, and I'll leave it at that. Sometimes I worry that I might have those traits, too, and it's only a matter of time before I become completely paranoid. The patterns of abuse in my family history are mostly psychological in nature. Mind games, playing favorites, all that crap.

Sorry for the tangent.

[ChrisnOrbit]

I understand about meeting halfway. Usually when I get into an argument I go as far as I can and the other person won't even budge. I had a hard time accepting Ts for awhile, hmmm I think I really keep an open mind about that sort of thing now. My mom is such a rigid closed-minded person that I assume most people are that way. If you sit down and talk to people though, alot of them are willing to meet you at that halfway mark.

On a side note I'm left handed too!
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[HousesOfApollo]

Originally Posted by ChrisnOrbit To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I understand about meeting halfway. Usually when I get into an argument I go as far as I can and the other person won't even budge. I had a hard time accepting Ts for awhile, hmmm I think I really keep an open mind about that sort of thing now. My mom is such a rigid closed-minded person that I assume most people are that way. If you sit down and talk to people though, alot of them are willing to meet you at that halfway mark. On a side note I'm left handed too! To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

A statistically significant proportion of the people I know are left-handed. There is something that left-handers have in common that draws them together, I think.

What is it about T's that you find hard to accept? I don't think that being open or close-minded has anything to do with thinking or feeling. Feeling types are often very closed-minded to what I have to say, but perhaps for different reasons.

[ChrisnOrbit]

I guess I may be generalizing Ts as closed minded and thats pretty irrational of me, sorry. I appreciate Ts for a lot of things and really those preferences don't determine whether a person is closed minded or not so I believe you are right in that aspect. I usually see one bad example of a person and I allow it to ruin it for the rest.
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As for Fs, I can see why they could be considered closed minded. I guess everyone can be anything but each type shows it differently. For instance a T can be closed minded in regards to anything that they do not consider "rational" or something that is too emotional. Fs can be closed minded by diregarding any facts just because of the way they feel. I should try to remember that.

Hmm, I have an OK friend who is left handed. She is nothing like me in many aspects but for some reason she just "gets" me. Its funny because I'm pretty sure she is an ISTJ maybe even INTJ. There was a day at school when I was totally upset and depressed but I was hiding it pretty well. People I knew for a long time had no clue how I felt but she knew instantly. It was weird because she has not been around me very long... anyway, it could be because she is left handed it may also very well be something else. It is still interesting to think about regardless.

[HousesOfApollo]

Originally Posted by ChrisnOrbit To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I guess I may be generalizing Ts as closed minded and thats pretty irrational of me, sorry. I appreciate Ts for a lot of things and really those preferences don't determine whether a person is closed minded or not so I believe you are right in that aspect. I usually see one bad example of a person and I allow it to ruin it for the rest. As for Fs, I can see why they could be considered closed minded. I guess everyone can be anything but each type shows it differently. For instance a T can be closed minded in regards to anything that they do not consider "rational" or something that is too emotional. Fs can be closed minded by diregarding any facts just because of the way they feel. I should try to remember that. Hmm, I have an OK friend who is left handed. She is nothing like me in many aspects but for some reason she just "gets" me. Its funny because I'm pretty sure she is an ISTJ maybe even INTJ. There was a day at school when I was totally upset and depressed but I was hiding it pretty well. People I knew for a long time had no clue how I felt but she knew instantly. It was weird because she has not been around me very long... anyway, it could be because she is left handed it may also very well be something else. It is still interesting to think about regardless.

What is so closed-minded about disregarding something that is irrational--if, indeed, it genuinely is so? It is irrational to abuse alcohol, it is irrational to travel 3,000 miles to meet some woman you barely know and to have your heart ripped out by her when you get there (I know a guy who did something like this--against my advice). You may be able to make cogent arguments in favor of emotionally rewarding actions, but open-mindedness will only go so far. I told my friend not to waste his time with this woman, and he thought I was being too judgmental--typical Feeling type reaction. This isn't the only time I've done something like this; sometimes I've had to intervene and inject some painful sense into my brother's life. He's always coming up with get-rich-quick schemes and such that I have to poke holes in. You have to try and be aware when the T-types in your life are trying to prevent you from enduring a great deal of suffering.

As I like to say, "A partially opened mind is like a parachute; but a completely open one is like a toilet."

Yea, I know I might be coming off a little harsh to you, but that's better than being dishonest.

Why would it be weird for an I(S/N)TJ to know if someone is sad or not? You may have been hiding your feelings as best you know how, but I've found that I can usually tell better the emotions that people are hiding than those they are actively expressing. I can read into the subtle behavioral clues and then speculate about possible emotional motivations. So while she may not have sympathized, she knew. Or it might just be that we're not really inhumane machines
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.

And some of us--me for example--may experience strong emotions when we're very stressed. I don't usually experience emotions when I'm not stressed out. I recall a particularly horrible time when I felt a great deal of sadness because I was living a life that was very unnatural for me--I had internalized the views of my oppressors and was desperately trying to be Extroverted and emotional to survive.

I started to change drastically when I started reading Jung. Needless to say, this changed my entire outlook on life. I started to revel in my own introversion, and eventually became more and more myself instead of the shaky facade that I had crafted in childhood to prevent my own destruction. The emotions began to fade somewhat from my life when I stopped trying to be something I was not--and wouldn't want to be, either. Just a few months ago I had profoundly realized the extent of my own personal development when my mother said to me, "You've lost your human touch..."

I get that a lot from people who have known me for years, too. "Why aren't you nice anymore?" is another typical response. The truth they'll never know is that I never was their definition of "nice" and I never had a genuine "human touch."

When I found myself, I subsequently lost everyone else in my life. Sure, my family may still love me, but they no longer talk to me unless absolutely necessary. It's as if I chose to be this way just to tick them off, but if I had a natural INFP temperament, that's what I would be because I was wide open to my own natural inclinations. Instead, I fleshed out and grew into this particular temperament, and even those who love me don't like me anymore. It's amazing how long it took me, though; the adults in my life did an incredible job of forestalling my own psychological development. It was worth it, though; there is no such thing as something for nothing.

I don't know why I'm writing this; I suppose I'm just trying to elaborate on points made in my original thread. Consider this Part II. I kind of got into Journal Mode there, heh. Sorry...
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[changos]

Read "having kids is not for cowards" by dr dobson. (i wrote a huge post but somehow it got lost). Books for parents really help your inner child (I talk for experience). They cover better the faults of the parents in matters often ignored or underestimated. I could give you advice on may other books but they are in spanish.

Yes, we need to learn by example a lot of things, if not we can become "nice" lacking the true human touch, but being nice because "it is what it suppose to be".

It really, really seems you are going to be a good parent, you are really aware about the little and big things that matter.

My mother didn't received too much example but she is a caring person. Things got ugly as she was not able of understand me so I spent most of my childhood being alone... even so, in my experience raising a little girl with a widow I was amazingly caring, responsible and all the good things I was afraid I couldn't be. I often cried a lot as when I did something with the girl I felt a powerfully energy healing my wounds out of nowhere. (I grew up without my father).

Reading books for parents helped me a lot to understand the child abuse and the different kinds of it. You don't have to beat a kid, in fact the most horrible thing to do is to ignore him. Often people advise this to punish kids... its effects are devastating.... kids don't need to be ignored, they need to be guided, explained, talked to.

So, from all the books I read, the books for parents worked miracles for me. Good luck

[ChrisnOrbit]

Originally Posted by HousesOfApollo To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

What is so closed-minded about disregarding something that is irrational--if, indeed, it genuinely is so? It is irrational to abuse alcohol, it is irrational to travel 3,000 miles to meet some woman you barely know and to have your heart ripped out by her when you get there (I know a guy who did something like this--against my advice). You may be able to make cogent arguments in favor of emotionally rewarding actions, but open-mindedness will only go so far. I told my friend not to waste his time with this woman, and he thought I was being too judgmental--typical Feeling type reaction. This isn't the only time I've done something like this; sometimes I've had to intervene and inject some painful sense into my brother's life. He's always coming up with get-rich-quick schemes and such that I have to poke holes in. You have to try and be aware when the T-types in your life are trying to prevent you from enduring a great deal of suffering.

It seems a bit closed minded to me. I don't like to ignore my feelings and I know alot of people who feel the same way. The only thing about me is that I heed the words of those who care about me. If you had warned me against doing something (like your example of going across the country to meet a girl) I would definitely consider it. I don't like to be too compulsive but I don't want to be rigid either. I guess not many people are like that. I know this ENFJ who according to Socionics relationships is supposed to be my "mirror" and while it is true for somethings in most cases he is much more irrational than I am. He talks to this girl online that we are both friends with and is obsessed with her. She doesn't like him and has told him over and over that this was the case but he still "needs" her. This seems like a very F trait and its very closed minded because no matter what I or the girl who he is interested in says he won't drop it because he feels that way. I have never nor do I plan to do anything like this mind you.. I guess my point is that I am snuffing my earlier post. Fs can be just as closed minded as anyone else just in a different way.

	Originally Posted by HousesOfApollo To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As I like to say, "A partially opened mind is like a parachute; but a completely open one is like a toilet."

Thats an interesting view. My approach is to keep an open mind because I don't know everything and probably never will.

	Originally Posted by HousesOfApollo To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yea, I know I might be coming off a little harsh to you, but that's better than being dishonest.

Don't worry, be as harsh as you want. I knew what I was in for when I joined this forum so I can take it.
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Originally Posted by HousesOfApollo To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Why would it be weird for an I(S/N)TJ to know if someone is sad or not? You may have been hiding your feelings as best you know how, but I've found that I can usually tell better the emotions that people are hiding than those they are actively expressing. I can read into the subtle behavioral clues and then speculate about possible emotional motivations. So while she may not have sympathized, she knew. Or it might just be that we're not really inhumane machines To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. .

I guess its my mental set that Ts can't understand emotions; I am quite happy to be proven wrong. Its interesting that you explain it in that way because thats what it seems like she did. When I asked why she thought I was upset I kind of did this nervous thing that I do when I'm figured out, its sort of like a side glance. She pointed it out immediately and said, "thats why." You saying that you can figure out emotions in that way intrigues me. I usually don't figure it out in that way especially not as quickly as she can.

Originally Posted by HousesOfApollo To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

And some of us--me for example--may experience strong emotions when we're very stressed. I don't usually experience emotions when I'm not stressed out. I recall a particularly horrible time when I felt a great deal of sadness because I was living a life that was very unnatural for me--I had internalized the views of my oppressors and was desperately trying to be Extroverted and emotional to survive.

I usually feel everything intensely and when I'm stressed out I dissociate and my feelings null out. I guess you can say I experience the opposite of what you experience...interesting.

Originally Posted by HousesOfApollo To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I started to change drastically when I started reading Jung. Needless to say, this changed my entire outlook on life. I started to revel in my own introversion, and eventually became more and more myself instead of the shaky facade that I had crafted in childhood to prevent my own destruction. The emotions began to fade somewhat from my life when I stopped trying to be something I was not--and wouldn't want to be, either. Just a few months ago I had profoundly realized the extent of my own personal development when my mother said to me, "You've lost your human touch..." I get that a lot from people who have known me for years, too. "Why aren't you nice anymore?" is another typical response. The truth they'll never know is that I never was their definition of "nice" and I never had a genuine "human touch."

I'm glad you found MBTI.. It really is capable of turning your life around in the direction it is supposed to go in.

Originally Posted by HousesOfApollo To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

When I found myself, I subsequently lost everyone else in my life. Sure, my family may still love me, but they no longer talk to me unless absolutely necessary. It's as if I chose to be this way just to tick them off, but if I had a natural INFP temperament, that's what I would be because I was wide open to my own natural inclinations. Instead, I fleshed out and grew into this particular temperament, and even those who love me don't like me anymore. It's amazing how long it took me, though; the adults in my life did an incredible job of forestalling my own psychological development. It was worth it, though; there is no such thing as something for nothing.

I think you made the right decision. You're the most important person in your life. If the path you take involves losing some people along the way then so be it. They never liked you for the real you anyway, just some psuedo extravert. I say good riddance.
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	Originally Posted by HousesOfApollo To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't know why I'm writing this; I suppose I'm just trying to elaborate on points made in my original thread. Consider this Part II. I kind of got into Journal Mode there, heh. Sorry... To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Its ok, I enjoy discussing it.

[HousesOfApollo]

	Originally Posted by changos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yes, we need to learn by example a lot of things, if not we can become "nice" lacking the true human touch, but being nice because "it is what it suppose to be".

These terms are really sort of relative, though, as I've always thought that people who were willing to listen to what I had to say were being "nice." Those who tried to sooth me with sophistry and coddling never seemed very "nice" to me.

	Originally Posted by changos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It really, really seems you are going to be a good parent, you are really aware about the little and big things that matter.

I don't know if I'll be parent, and whether or not I'm a "good" parent may depend on what sort of child I have. I probably would have had a much better relationship with my own parents had my temperament been different.

Though, seeing as clearly as I do now, I wouldn't change a thing about myself.

Originally Posted by changos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My mother didn't received too much example but she is a caring person. Things got ugly as she was not able of understand me so I spent most of my childhood being alone... even so, in my experience raising a little girl with a widow I was amazingly caring, responsible and all the good things I was afraid I couldn't be. I often cried a lot as when I did something with the girl I felt a powerfully energy healing my wounds out of nowhere. (I grew up without my father).

I, too, spent most of my childhood alone. One the things that I used to like doing the most was collecting and studying insects and reptiles; I had this intense desire to learn about nature. Oftentimes, I'll regret the isolation of my own childhood. Now, however, I know just how much I needed to isolate myself. To quote Rush's Limelight, "One must put up barriers to keep oneself intact."

That one line sums up an entire way of life quite succinctly, I think. In fact, the entire song seems to mirror my own introverted attitude:

Living on a lighted stage
Approaches the unreal
For those who think and feel
In touch with some reality
Beyond the gilded cage

Cast in this unlikely role,
Ill-equipped to act
With insufficient tact
One must put up barriers
To keep oneself intact

Living in the limelight
The universal dream
For those who wish to seem

Those who wish to be
Must put aside the alienation
Get on with the fascination
The real relation
The underlying theme

Living in a fisheye lens
Caught in the camera eye
I have no heart to lie
I can't pretend a stranger
Is a long-awaited friend

All the worlds indeed a stage
And we are merely players
Performers and portrayers
Each another's audience
Outside the gilded cage

	Originally Posted by changos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Reading books for parents helped me a lot to understand the child abuse and the different kinds of it. You don't have to beat a kid, in fact the most horrible thing to do is to ignore him. Often people advise this to punish kids... its effects are devastating.... kids don't need to be ignored, they need to be guided, explained, talked to.

One of the things that my parents did to me--acting on retarded advice--was pin me down against the floor whenever I acted up. I remember the sensation of complete restraint quite vividly, and the fear of confinement and restraint haunts me to this day. My parents probably read all the wrong books.

Originally Posted by ChrisnOrbit To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It seems a bit closed minded to me. I don't like to ignore my feelings and I know alot of people who feel the same way. The only thing about me is that I heed the words of those who care about me. If you had warned me against doing something (like your example of going across the country to meet a girl) I would definitely consider it. I don't like to be too compulsive but I don't want to be rigid either. I guess not many people are like that. I know this ENFJ who according to Socionics relationships is supposed to be my "mirror" and while it is true for somethings in most cases he is much more irrational than I am. He talks to this girl online that we are both friends with and is obsessed with her. She doesn't like him and has told him over and over that this was the case but he still "needs" her. This seems like a very F trait and its very closed minded because no matter what I or the girl who he is interested in says he won't drop it because he feels that way. I have never nor do I plan to do anything like this mind you.. I guess my point is that I am snuffing my earlier post. Fs can be just as closed minded as anyone else just in a different way.

When my friends are taken advantage of like that, or fall victim to their emotional needs, they seem a little pathetic to me. It's very cruel and terrible to manipulate people senselessly and towards a cruel end. I say this because I have no right to say that I don't manipulate others. When I took on my fake persona just to survive this world, I was manipulating everyone around me so that I could survive (now I manipulate them when I know I can't reason with them). The main point behind all this personality theory stuff, I think, is to basically ascertain what is the true personality and what is just empty persona. So many people live their entire lives as the characters they've invented in childhood; the values and behaviors inculcated into them by the mother culture.

It's a basic punishment/reward system. When you act one way, you're rewarded; and if you act a different way you are punished. So it seems that most people end up living at odds with their own temperament, and this causes confusion and stress. It's good to have at least a rudimentary means of decoding and understanding oneself and others.

Oh yea, and don't trust anything "Socionics" says; they're like the National Enquirer of MBTi typing.

Originally Posted by ChrisnOrbit To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I guess its my mental set that Ts can't understand emotions; I am quite happy to be proven wrong. Its interesting that you explain it in that way because thats what it seems like she did. When I asked why she thought I was upset I kind of did this nervous thing that I do when I'm figured out, its sort of like a side glance. She pointed it out immediately and said, "thats why." You saying that you can figure out emotions in that way intrigues me. I usually don't figure it out in that way especially not as quickly as she can.

It's not so much that T's do not understand emotions; they just don't grasp them in the same way that F's do. I think that to be balanced and function well both types have to evolve differently: F's have to hone a sort of emotional wisdom, while T's need to discipline their minds. One group needs emotions to guide their thinking while another needs thinking to tame their emotions. It's a priority thing.

	Originally Posted by ChrisnOrbit To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think you made the right decision. You're the most important person in your life. If the path you take involves losing some people along the way then so be it. They never liked you for the real you anyway, just some psuedo extravert. I say good riddance.

I wouldn't say that I've "lost" anyone; just alienated them somewhat. That's the worst kind of relationship to have to another human being, I think. You're not alienated enough to drop them while still being uncomfortably close.

I'm not as isolated as I once was, though. For some reason I'm able to communicate with others a lot better than I used to. For nearly two entire years I never spoke to anyone who I didn't already know.

[changos]

I relate a lot on what you say. I know not everything is "as the book says" but we intj are hypersensitive to rejection as the profiles say (and it seems to be true). People often say "I just don't care" but truth is we all build barriers after those experiences "we don't care about".

Isolation is a conservation and defense system: nobody will come near enough to hurt me. Things are ok right now, why disturbing it? I read a lot about many many things on childhood and healing your inner self but most of that seems sh!t to me (sorry). Religion and similar things are all around asking to forget, keep hoping, don't do anything... just resist, you have to make the hard work... not your parents, the poor ones didn't know.... And that is a no no for me.

We had a book in spanish for a while at home (don't remember the title) stating that some stuff need to be talked with the parents before they die. They talked about a case similar on what you say where the Dr. asked the parents to apologize to the kids (they were already adults). The old parents refused and acted like childs (most of old people will) and the Dr. said "you have to, you are in debt, you know by now all the things you shouldn't do...".

People underestimate this... some adults go around feeling bad and cry because their parents died and they didn't have the time to talk about this things. Just as on an interview with Steve Martin he healed a lot when he understood that his father was doing everything he can (in his ignorance) and tried as hard as he could. Perhaps we could find not so beautiful things but it really helps putting things on the table.

What I said about you being a parent is because you are aware of you, your childhood and your present. Mos of people just go around and have kids pretending they were raised ok and will repeat the same. I think you have a very complete perspective of what a hard job is to raise a kid and what mistakes people could make.

Have you seen Frequency (denis quaid and jim caviezel?) I cried like a kid when I saw that move (not crying like crying) I felt inside of me a huge commotion, and I also felt some walls inside of me being demolish literally, it was beyond my control. It was about seeing how my life would have been with my father in my life (and a good father, as I had him with me like 5 years but he just sucks, I'm better of without him).

I'm trying to say... there are books and movies (with fantasy if you wish to call it that way) that really hit the mind with more than you can digest, but heal, heal heal).

[eMachine]

I can very much identify with almost everything that you've said thus far. You've made some excellent observations and it looks like you've come to some correct conclusions for yourself, and some work for me as well.

Originally Posted by HousesOfApollo To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Now, I am something of a strong introvert, and suspect that I always have been. I distinctly remember not playing with the other children during recess in school; instead, I would sit on the sidelines and watch the other children play, observing them. Couple this with a limited ability to emote, and you have a recipe for inadvertent child abuse. I believe that much of the cruelty I experienced from my teachers, my schoolmates and my parents may have a lot to do with the the traits of Thinking and Introversion.

I strongly identify with this. I too remember just sitting and watching my peers. I suppose I was trying to discern what it was that made me so different from them. Although anytime I could secure myself a swing on the playground, I would just swing for the entire recess, thinking, and enjoying being oblivious to all else.

I've discussed my childhood experience of "social anxiety" and feeling like an outcast with my ENTJ husband, and he has pointed out many times that I enabled the continued behavior and "abuse" from others by not standing up for myself and telling them off.

My relationship with my parents was, simply put, confusing, as it would seem that they would love me one moment, and then do things that made me suffer the next. For example, they would often chastise me for being the social pariah I've always been. They would force me into social situations and accuse me of being an evil problem child; but then again they'd be very nice and understanding, too. It's more like they just disregarded my suffering entirely. I distinctly remember a bought of extreme childhood depression when I positively hated my parents. As a small child, I couldn't understand how these people--who supposedly loved me--could let me suffer so horribly. Now, in retrospect, I realized that I never said anything about being depressed; I never communicated my pitiful state to anyone else. My parents are nearly stereotypical F-types.

My parents were always detached, distracted, caught up in the stress of their adult worries. My dad is ISTJ (and sounds alot like you decribe your grandfather), as a child I was always intimidated by him and rather afraid of him but now that I am an adult he is certainly the family member that I am closest to. My mother is astoundingly an ISFJ, but there seems to be a tradition of detachment among the women on my mother's side of the family (mom, grandma, aunts), they all tend to focus on things outside of themselves, gossip about others, rather than being open about feelings. I have never been able to talk to my mom about anything.

	Well, I had to try and understand this, and I came to the conclusion that I suffered an awful lot because I was unable to make others empathize with me. I came across (and perhaps still do) as something like a robot in the Uncanny Valley. A bad actor in the movie of life, unable to convince anyone of his sincerity.

I was never really able to describe to others how I was feeling to make them understand me and acknowledge my plight. I always felt as if I would seem a bad actor or over-dramatic. I think that I couldn't convince myself of my sincerity, although I'm sure now that other people in my life are less discerning than we INTJ seem to be in that arena.

	An introvert who is more emotionally expressive, I suspect, wouldn't usually endure this inadvertent kind of abuse because the emotional expressiveness would give the child a means to engage the empathy of others--in a sense manipulating them into showing respect. They seem to have a talent for breaking through their own introversion by means of their emotional needs.

My husband is very borderline I/E, always scores as barely an extrovert because he enjoys being able to share his ideas with someone else, he needs a wall to bounce his voice off of for the most part. He doesn't really understand/observe the social rules of communication though, such as distinguishing body language reactions and responding correctly to them, giving another person the chance to reply when they seem to have something to posit etc. Anyway, as a child/teenager he never struggled with the sort of "abuse" that I did, because he had no qualms telling a bully "I'm a psycho who will kill you in your sleep if you keep trying to mess with me". I, on the other hand, have never fully understood the art of lying and manipulation in ANY scenario, it never comes naturally to me to do so, I would sooner say nothing than say something I knew wasn't entirely true.

To make a long story short, it took a great deal of effort for me to even begin to think of myself as a human being. My primary childhood fantasies were identity-based; I thought of myself as either an android or an alien. That was my childish way of understanding the reason why people treated me the crappy way they did. This is my adult way of understanding. I'm open to other ways of understanding.

I had the very same fantasies as a child. I would sit wondering what it was like on my "home planet" and waiting for the "mother ship" to come and take me home.

	So, does any of this resonate with you guys? Or do I just have rotten luck? Or, just perhaps, am I really a soulless monster?

Oh, it resonates with me. If you have rotten luck and/or are really a soulless monster, I atleast am keeping you company in that boat.

Originally Posted by HousesOfApollo To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Mostly just emotional and mental abuse. Being confused about the motives of all the adults in my life made me very paranoid and isolated. This paranoia and isolation made me even less sympathetic and then the abuse continued in a vicious cycle. That said, it's still very murky whether or not any of this constitutes abuse. Perhaps it'll be best to call it "being made to suffer." The intentions of my parents and caregivers were so murky to me, but I could never prove that they really wanted to hurt me. I mean, I was never physically abused beyond the occasional spanking or whatever. Maybe a couple times I was slapped, but I usually managed to sneak a slap back in and then run off.

I know exactly what you mean about paranoia, isolation, not understanding the motives of others. And it's funny, the one time in my adolescence that I remember being slapped, I too slapped back.

	Yes, and my point is that they tend to do it on instinct. Even people who know me very well and aren't overtly hostile to me sometimes slip and say dehumanizing things about me. Even they are in denial of it, but I can see it quite plainly.

My "best friend" (an ENFP) was once talking to my husband in my presence and likened me simply to a round ball, stating in so many words "what you see is what you get". I was a little offended that after so many years she doesn't know me at all, she honestly thought she was right.

	I think it's because I think and feel things that sort of border on the edges of common human experience. Some of the more enlightened members of the species can manage to understand, but most don't. When I try to explain it, I tell them that I'm going somewhere that they can't follow. In the rare occasion that I do get treated like a human, I don't know how to respond. I just go, "What?"

I remember the very first person who philosophized with me (or rather, TO me, at that time). I was 14, he was 25 I believe. At the time I thought that he was communicating with me as if I were an adult, but now as an adult I understand that most adults do not even communicate on such a level. He was speaking to me as a human being, treating me as a thinking individual. I didn't know how to respond, except to crave the company of this person who saw in me something that I didn't see in myself really, that I was another kind of human.

I try to reach out and communicate with people who are very different from me because of this hard-learned childhood lesson. My life may one day depend on being able to communicate. They have to at least meet me half-way, though, because there's only so much anyone can bend. The overly emotional people will gain my respect by listening to me, and if they make the effort to understand the validity of my breakdown and analysis, I'll try to understand them, too.

This is why I love MBTI. I know it's important to communicate with others, and personality theory helps me to understand how to understand and communicate with other people in my life.

My grandpa is a real role model for me, though. I suspect that I get the majority of my personality traits from him, with the exception of strong Intuition, which I think I have because I'm left-handed. There are a lot of things that he did in his life that I find very admirable. He quit smoking cold turkey on the first try. He taught himself all the mathematics he needed to know to work as a contractor; he knew what he needed to do, and he did it. I once asked him about his experiences in World War II, and he just told me the brutal, un-romanticized truth: "We just killed japs before the japs could kill us." Those were simpler times. Back in those days, I think the "strong, silent types" were better appreciated. No one tried to drug my grandpa because he didn't fit some mass media ideal of "outgoing and happy." He's intelligent in a very nuts and bolts way.

Your grandfather sounds exactly like my father... highly intelligent in a "nuts and bolts" way. He is my family's "saving grace", if it weren't for him I probably wouldn't have much to do with the rest of them.

	Originally Posted by HousesOfApollo To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	These terms are really sort of relative, though, as I've always thought that people who were willing to listen to what I had to say were being "nice." Those who tried to sooth me with sophistry and coddling never seemed very "nice" to me.

While I was beginning to skip school because of social anxieties, I remember my grandmother and mother telling me that the other kids teased me "because they are jealous"... I'm sure they meant well, they were trying to be nice, but even as young as 10 I knew they were simply repeating to me a sort of "cop out" to actually communicating with me about my feelings and experiences.

	I don't know if I'll be parent, and whether or not I'm a "good" parent may depend on what sort of child I have. I probably would have had a much better relationship with my own parents had my temperament been different. Though, seeing as clearly as I do now, I wouldn't change a thing about myself.

I have 2 children, a 'pre-schooler' and an infant. My 4yo daughter is very outgoing and extroverted, it's impossible to tell what type she is becoming as her personality developes, but I'm sure she is an E and that alone is going to cause some turmoil for her in our Introverted "hermit household". It's very difficult to be a mother as an INTJ, lacking those basic stereotypical nurturing emotional maternal instincts, regardless of what types my children turn out to be. I'm just hoping they will be Thinkers, and then possibly I will be able to reason with them, rather than Feelers that I will need to "coddle".

When my friends are taken advantage of like that, or fall victim to their emotional needs, they seem a little pathetic to me. It's very cruel and terrible to manipulate people senselessly and towards a cruel end. I say this because I have no right to say that I don't manipulate others. When I took on my fake persona just to survive this world, I was manipulating everyone around me so that I could survive (now I manipulate them when I know I can't reason with them). The main point behind all this personality theory stuff, I think, is to basically ascertain what is the true personality and what is just empty persona. So many people live their entire lives as the characters they've invented in childhood; the values and behaviors inculcated into them by the mother culture.

I couldn't agree more. Though I've never really practiced manipulation skills well, I understand what you say. The ENFP friend I mentioned earlier inspires alot of pity in me, being so ruled by emotion and whim, and living as a sort of caricature of herself that she created during her adolescence. There are many like her. I often wonder how many women are even really Fs and how many of them just created the habit of being "feminine" that way.

It's not so much that T's do not understand emotions; they just don't grasp them in the same way that F's do. I think that to be balanced and function well both types have to evolve differently: F's have to hone a sort of emotional wisdom, while T's need to discipline their minds. One group needs emotions to guide their thinking while another needs thinking to tame their emotions. It's a priority thing.

I agree. I think that generally T's try to rationalize their emotions and discern what is useful, in short we trust to our minds.

I'm sorry that this has become so long, there was just so much that I felt I needed to respond to. Anyway, you are not alone.

[HousesOfApollo]

Ok, I'm going to cut some of these paragraphs down to their core sentences to prevent going over the word limit:

	Originally Posted by changos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I relate a lot on what you say. I know not everything is "as the book says" but we intj are hypersensitive to rejection as the profiles say (and it seems to be true). People often say "I just don't care" but truth is we all build barriers after those experiences "we don't care about".

Oh man, I know. This all comes down to the "teenage defense" I was talking about. What I find to be a good rule of thumb is that people are usually most aggressive where they are most weak; we do not like to admit when we are weak or when we are hurt, especially proud people like us.

Pride has its own sense of injury. Even though I am a primary Thinking person it doesn't mean that the thoughts themselves do have their own quality which is equal to the power of Feelings to move or injure Feeling people. Thoughts are not empty, soulless experiences for me; they're majestic and fantastic at times. I think this is why Feeling types often misunderstand us, because thoughts do not have this quality to them.

	Originally Posted by changos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	We had a book in spanish for a while at home (don't remember the title) stating that some stuff need to be talked with the parents before they die.

I hope that one day I'll be able to do this. But as it is, I can't speak to them about anything.

	Originally Posted by changos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What I said about you being a parent is because you are aware of you, your childhood and your present. Mos of people just go around and have kids pretending they were raised ok and will repeat the same. I think you have a very complete perspective of what a hard job is to raise a kid and what mistakes people could make.

C.G. Jung said that there is no coming to consciousness without pain. This isn't to say that all suffering is noble--the vast majority of it is just strait forward, undignified misery. What this means is that consciousness itself is pain; acknowledging the wrongs in yourself and in others is not an easy thing to do, and most people never really do it.

This is an unfortunate truth of human reality.

	Originally Posted by changos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Have you seen Frequency (denis quaid and jim caviezel?)

Yes, I saw this movie and liked it. I guess its appeal comes from the desire in all of us to see certain unfavorable outcomes be rectified or prevented; to fix the world in which we live. We all desire this to varying degrees.

	Originally Posted by changos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm trying to say... there are books and movies (with fantasy if you wish to call it that way) that really hit the mind with more than you can digest, but heal, heal heal).

I have a saying that I like very much: Achilles, heal. When you say it out loud, it's a weakness; but when you read it, it's a command sentence to Achilles telling him to heal. It's awkward, but I like it.

	Originally Posted by eMachine To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I can very much identify with almost everything that you've said thus far. You've made some excellent observations and it looks like you've come to some correct conclusions for yourself, and some work for me as well.

Thanks... I tend to be very observational person.

	Originally Posted by eMachine To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I strongly identify with this. I too remember just sitting and watching my peers. I suppose I was trying to discern what it was that made me so different from them.

The only friends that I ever played with were those who I could invite over, or could perhaps visit. It wasn't that I hated every other kid; it was more of an inability to function on that level, and in that world. The only explanation I had then for the difference between me and them was that I was weird and defective in some way.

	Originally Posted by eMachine To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've discussed my childhood experience of "social anxiety" and feeling like an outcast with my ENTJ husband, and he has pointed out many times that I enabled the continued behavior and "abuse" from others by not standing up for myself and telling them off.

It's an introvert/extrovert thing. Most of the time the encounter is over before I've thought of a good enough response. The best way for me to stand up for myself was to survive in this awful world through cunning.

Originally Posted by eMachine To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My parents were always detached, distracted, caught up in the stress of their adult worries. My dad is ISTJ (and sounds alot like you decribe your grandfather), as a child I was always intimidated by him and rather afraid of him but now that I am an adult he is certainly the family member that I am closest to. My mother is astoundingly an ISFJ, but there seems to be a tradition of detachment among the women on my mother's side of the family (mom, grandma, aunts), they all tend to focus on things outside of themselves, gossip about others, rather than being open about feelings. I have never been able to talk to my mom about anything.

My parents were too stuck on the tragedies of their own family lives--they never let me have a new start. They were so afraid of me making the same mistakes as other members of my family that they refused to have any confidence in me whatsoever. They just assumed that I'd be as mindless and alcoholic as every one else in the gene pool.

But I didn't succumb to the addictive tendencies of my family genetics because I have a very disciplined personality. What they thought was wrong with me turned out to be what's really right with me. I needed to think this way to overcome the weaknesses of my own genetic makeup.

	Originally Posted by eMachine To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I was never really able to describe to others how I was feeling to make them understand me and acknowledge my plight. I always felt as if I would seem a bad actor or over-dramatic. I think that I couldn't convince myself of my sincerity, although I'm sure now that other people in my life are less discerning than we INTJ seem to be in that arena.

I never doubted my own sincerity, but I've always had my work cut out for me when trying to explain myself to others. People would always accuse me of lying or whatever, but I always told truth.

Originally Posted by eMachine To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My husband is very borderline I/E, always scores as barely an extrovert because he enjoys being able to share his ideas with someone else, he needs a wall to bounce his voice off of for the most part. He doesn't really understand/observe the social rules of communication though, such as distinguishing body language reactions and responding correctly to them, giving another person the chance to reply when they seem to have something to posit etc.

I often find it useful to brainstorm ideas with others, though usually only after I've developed them. Sometimes it helps to run an argument by someone who agrees with you first so that he/she may find the holes in it and help you plug it before presenting it to someone else.

	Originally Posted by eMachine To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	My "best friend" (an ENFP) was once talking to my husband in my presence and likened me simply to a round ball, stating in so many words "what you see is what you get".

Man, how could someone who knows an introvert say something like that? What you see is most definitely probably not what you're "getting."

	Originally Posted by eMachine To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I remember the very first person who philosophized with me (or rather, TO me, at that time). I was 14, he was 25 I believe. At the time I thought that he was communicating with me as if I were an adult, but now as an adult I understand that most adults do not even communicate on such a level.

The arrogance of humanity never ceases to astound me. Most of them spend the first 20 or so years of their lives learning, and then somehow they're "done" and know everything they need to know for the rest of their lives. They don't stop to try and learn, or re-evaluate their ideas whenever there's new information; they think of themselves as complete, when really nothing could be farther from the truth. The more enlightened people never stop being students.

	Originally Posted by eMachine To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Your grandfather sounds exactly like my father... highly intelligent in a "nuts and bolts" way. He is my family's "saving grace", if it weren't for him I probably wouldn't have much to do with the rest of them.

Yes... my grandpa can do all sorts of things with wood and machines, but he has no grasp whatsoever of how the world at large works. He likes building and working on his van and stuff: he is also fanatically loyal to brands. The only kind of vehicle he ever buys is a brown Chevy van. ISTJ's often appear to be quite dull, but that's only because the most interesting parts of them are deeply submerged.

My brother may or may not be an ISTJ. He's very stuffy and regimental, and doesn't listen to any music until he can place it in a genre; he also tends to impose more rigid stereotypes on people than I do, and is less able to grasp the possibility of any exceptions. Show him a Japanese cowboy and his head will probably spin right off. My thinking is more nuanced, but less specific. Whenever me and brother decide to tag team someone in a debate, though, we're absolutely brutal.

	Originally Posted by eMachine To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	While I was beginning to skip school because of social anxieties, I remember my grandmother and mother telling me that the other kids teased me "because they are jealous"... I'm sure they meant well, they were trying to be nice, but even as young as 10 I knew they were simply repeating to me a sort of "cop out" to actually communicating with me about my feelings and experiences.

Oh yea, and how about this one, "do you really think the world will accept this sort of behavior from you"? That's something my dad would constantly drill into me: my parents may be able to accept me, but if I wanted any acceptance from the world at large I had better shape up.

I was never treated as though I was a person who had problems; I was treated as though I WAS the problem.

	Originally Posted by eMachine To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I have 2 children, a 'pre-schooler' and an infant. My 4yo daughter is very outgoing and extroverted, it's impossible to tell what type she is becoming as her personality developes, but I'm sure she is an E and that alone is going to cause some turmoil for her in our Introverted "hermit household".

I remember times when I was somewhat extroverted as a child, but now I attribute it to a naive lack of fear and discomfort. Being introverted is simply a different way of processing information--one that makes fitting into the extroverted world quite difficult. We need to get rid of the fallacious concept that somehow introversion is a point of view or opinion of the rest of mankind. I know of a few people who are obviously introverted, and who are frazzled and exhausted much of the time from trying to interact with people in an extroverted way. Small-talking and whatnot.

	Originally Posted by eMachine To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The ENFP friend I mentioned earlier inspires alot of pity in me, being so ruled by emotion and whim, and living as a sort of caricature of herself that she created during her adolescence.

I think that the self-caricature persona is fully complete by the time most people are in High School. Then people are practically assaulted by the encroaching social mob and there are only two options: conform or rebel with all your might. I remember meeting a few High School aged people who were highly intelligent, had great observational skills, but couldn't see beyond their own rigid defense mechanisms. One of the best examples I can remember was this girl who fit the INTJ profile, yet couldn't get her mind off of the paranoid delusion that lesbians at school were discriminating against her for being strait.

Monomania and lack of self reflection is a tragic consequence of poor upbringing and unresolved anger and hatred.

	Originally Posted by eMachine To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm sorry that this has become so long, there was just so much that I felt I needed to respond to. Anyway, you are not alone.

I love long posts and long discussions just so long as they don't become tedious and bogged down by petty quibbling over minutia. When I joined this forum I had a very clear vision in my head of what sort of member I would be: the rare, quiet reflective member. Some of these threads of mine take weeks of on-and-off refining and thinking to develop. I was conversing with another member here about a week or so after joining and he commented on something that he noticed about the people here: bad memories of childhood. I identified with that observation and elaborated on it using research and my own memories.

When I get on to a topic I tend investigate it until I've come to a new, profound understanding; this understanding is then shared with others.

The crazy thing about all this is that about a week before I joined this forum I saw this weird little sign in a hardware store that said "You Are Not Alone..." Every time I come across that phrase now I think of that sign.

[changos]

Nice phrase BTW. I got a strange feeling when I heard "superman" by five for fighting. I relate a lot to the scenes of loneliness of superman, also with the fight against himself. Somehow I overcome that guy (me) from time to time coming out of my world apart but it keeps coming back.

I don't relate anything to the superhero thing, just the "feeling" as in the fights even of comic books he gives the clear idea that he is alone, nobody of his kind to come to or ask for help. Out of this planet huh?

[Antisocialite]

Originally Posted by HousesOfApollo To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Alright, I don't think any of this is scientific; it is, however, an idea based on many things that I have observed in my own life. I am posting this idea for the sake of validating my experiences with others--to see if there is a common truth to all this. I may just be writing this to get this off my mind. It's not based on any one particular psychological theory, but it is a momentary application of everything I currently know about psychology in an attempt to better understand the world in which I live: Now, I am something of a strong introvert, and suspect that I always have been. I distinctly remember not playing with the other children during recess in school; instead, I would sit on the sidelines and watch the other children play, observing them. Couple this with a limited ability to emote, and you have a recipe for inadvertent child abuse. I believe that much of the cruelty I experienced from my teachers, my schoolmates and my parents may have a lot to do with the the traits of Thinking and Introversion. My relationship with my parents was, simply put, confusing, as it would seem that they would love me one moment, and then do things that made me suffer the next. For example, they would often chastise me for being the social pariah I've always been. They would force me into social situations and accuse me of being an evil problem child; but then again they'd be very nice and understanding, too. It's more like they just disregarded my suffering entirely. I distinctly remember a bought of extreme childhood depression when I positively hated my parents. As a small child, I couldn't understand how these people--who supposedly loved me--could let me suffer so horribly. Now, in retrospect, I realized that I never said anything about being depressed; I never communicated my pitiful state to anyone else. My parents are nearly stereotypical F-types. Well, I had to try and understand this, and I came to the conclusion that I suffered an awful lot because I was unable to make others empathize with me. I came across (and perhaps still do) as something like a robot in the Uncanny Valley. A bad actor in the movie of life, unable to convince anyone of his sincerity. He is what Wikipedia says about the Uncanny Valley that I find relevant to this post: "On the other hand, if the entity is "almost human", then the non-human characteristics will be the ones that stand out, leading to a feeling of "strangeness" in the human viewer. In sum, a robot stuck inside the uncanny valley is no longer being judged by the standards of a robot doing a good job at pretending to be human, but is instead being judged by the standards of a human doing a terrible job at acting like a normal person." -- By no means am I trying to excuse those who would abuse a child--it is abhorrent on ethical grounds. What I am trying to do is differentiate between sadistic and genuine abuse and crappy things that people did to me just because they weren't capable of empathizing with me as they would with a more open, emotionally expressive child. An introvert who is more emotionally expressive, I suspect, wouldn't usually endure this inadvertent kind of abuse because the emotional expressiveness would give the child a means to engage the empathy of others--in a sense manipulating them into showing respect. They seem to have a talent for breaking through their own introversion by means of their emotional needs. I don't think that most people do the right thing for ethical reasons--the right thing to them is what their empathy tells them is right. The gut feeling is what matters. I distinctly remember a conversation I had with my brother about why people seemed to care a little less about cats being abused than dogs being abused. The only reason that made sense to me was that cats have less in common with humans than dogs do. Dogs are more social animals, and are in general less aloof than cats are. They run up to you, express happiness in your presence, and win you over to their side. Cats are more, well, introverted and aloof. [I've never identified with either cats or dogs. I identify with the Siamese Fighting Fish more than any other animal.] Even now, as an adult, I notice a different standard with regard to how others treat me. In general, people will say nastier, meaner, and more disrespectful things to me than they would to anyone else. Now, it's not as though I have a thin skin--far from it--but I am very much offended when someone passive-aggressively regards me as though I were something less than human, and not deserving of the same respect that he/she would show for anyone else. This double-standard I abhor more than the content of the insult itself. I am noticing this more than usual right now, and I'm fairly combative. To make a long story short, it took a great deal of effort for me to even begin to think of myself as a human being. My primary childhood fantasies were identity-based; I thought of myself as either an android or an alien. That was my childish way of understanding the reason why people treated me the crappy way they did. This is my adult way of understanding. I'm open to other ways of understanding. So, does any of this resonate with you guys? Or do I just have rotten luck? Or, just perhaps, am I really a soulless monster? Thoughts and opinions are welcome. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. . Sorry if this seemed a little long. [As a note on my own level of introversion: earlier on in childhood I was nearly diagnosed with autism. I read about a similar kind of abuse towards autistic children, but a lot worse; I wouldn't compare my childhood to an autistic's.] [I know this is similar to the Bullied thread. I decided that this idea dealt with issues that were sufficiently different to warrant a different thread. And, as usual, I searched and perused almost the entire forum looking for a similar thread, and failed to find one. If there was a thread a lot like this, I apologize.]

I experienced the same abuse. On top of that I was physically and sexually abused as well so I'm just lucky to have survived.

[Seppuku Savant]

It's wrong to treat anyone unequally. Just because a person isn't demonstrative or expressive of their feelings, doesn't mean they should be treated less than another feeling person.

[Minxz]

I was bullied terribly as a child by schoolmates... somehow it never touched my core though. I always had my "secret garden" to withdraw to. I was lonely when I was very young I had an invisible friend then I started reading and you never found me without my literary friends.

My husband an INTJ also was abused and horribly bullied as a child by his classmates. The physicality of the abuse is still a horror for him. He can re-live every punch and slam into a wall. It’s kinda scary when he hits that mood because part of him becomes hollow as he recites it. Still trying to make sense of it.

He often mentions that he is not human I would not be surprised and will have to ask him if he went through much of his youth thinking he was a robot. He is still dealing with these traumas that lasted most of his youth. Trying to find a way to heal and empower himself.

I often consider how most INTJ's are NOT touchy feely persons so each violent act was a terrible violation beyond what it was for me as and INFP.

I do believe that IN’s attract abuse in a way because they communicate so differently than the majority and sadly it is human nature to persecute what they don’t understand. Like has been mentioned F’s are probably protected a bit more than T’s since we would react in a more comprehensible way for the masses..

[Jakalwarrior]

The only time I was seriously bullied was my freshman year of highschool. My problem wasn't that I couldnt function well in society, it was that I was very trusting, naive, and logical. Those qualities dont work well when everyone hits puberty and starts thirsting for blood. Past my freshman year I picked up a mean attitude and got pretty good at the "I might kill you" look. Problem solved for me.
I had pretty good parents though, both introverts. My father is actually an extreme introvery with social phobias. He functions well but "hates people".

[Antares]

Originally Posted by lordrrr To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I was abused by my father as a child, but he took counseling and the abuse let up as I grew up more. However, he still had a very bad temper and would beat me, this lasted until I was in I believe 5th grade, then the beating stopped. It still happens from time to time but it is very rare. He didn't beat me because I was bad socially (which I actually wasn't too bad growing up, but I definantly preferred my time to myself), but because he had a very short temper and also because his own father did it. My parents never got a divorce though, but my mom threatened to if he didn't get counseling, which he did.

You have it easy. My mom was still beating me into my early teens; until I was about 13. She still has her shouting fits, but it's easier to tune out than beating. I think I've mentioned on the forum how my mom beat me after catching me falling asleep on a book. It used to hurt so much that I looked at her in fear. I don't know when she would blow up and I sure hope I'm not there when she does. She used to say horrible things to me like how I'd never accomplish anything in life; that I was lower than a dog or how much she hates me. Would these count as child abuse? She's still convinced of how much she loves me, and I don't think I doubt that; she's sacrificed a lot for me, but if that's true, then she's pathetic at showing it; so pathetic that I forgot how to love her back. Everything I am, she takes credit for it. If that's also true, then she beat me into what I am today. Like your mom, my dad doesn't participate. But unlike your mom, my dad thinks it's justified and I was always the one at fault for agitating my mom. He does nothing and watches on.

I used to be quite sensitive and sentimental, but I think I've learned to "shut down" as a defensive mechanism. Now I can't "turn back on".