[Oblivious]

I'm majoring in computer science, and I love programming. Right now, I'm attending a local community college, but I intend on transferring to a university next fall. I figured since programming is a perfect match (at least in my opinion) for the introvert personality that this would be a good place to ask some questions.

I have been playing with computer since I was a kid. I actually dabbled in programming when I was in my early teens, but I never did anything extraordinary. I did have an understanding of it though. As I got older and went to work, I kind of got out of it. Now that I am going back to school for it, I feel like my earlier experience has given me a huge advantage. I can easily teach myself new computer concepts without the help of the teacher. I still enjoy taking the classes though. I've only had one class so far, and I was a little bit disappointed with it. I did really well at it. The teacher kept telling me I had natural talent and would go far. He even went as far as to apologize to me for the class moving so slow because the other students just couldn't keep up. There were only like 12 people in the class when it started and only like 6 left when it finished. What will it be like at a university level? Will the teacher just plug on and leave the students behind, or will they slow it down and punish the good students for the slackers not keeping up?

What about group work? I don't enjoy working in groups. I can do it. It's not so much cooperating with the people as it is my anxiety from being so awkward in social situations. How much group work is there throughout the computer science degree?

I've never really been much on the school clubs, but I must admit that a programming club might be interesting. I assume they exist? I also assume they probably have competitions? What is that like?

What is the female population like in computer science classes at the university level? I've only had the one programming class so far, but there wasn't a single girl in there.

What was the overall university experience like for your computer classes? I'm looking forward to it, but I was looking forward to this community college too, and I was really disappointed.

Any other advice you can offer that I should know about?

[nhillson]

Go to a good university, and you won't have to worry about slackers
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I'm taking software design next semester, and I'm really pumped for it.

[cannotseethe]

	Originally Posted by Oblivious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What is the female population like in computer science classes at the university level?

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	Originally Posted by Oblivious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Any other advice you can offer that I should know about?

Speaking from experience as one who TAed university computer science courses: don't try cheating. Specifically, don't try copying code from another person when you're meant to do individual work. No matter how subtle you think you're being, there's a good chance you'll be caught.

It seems like a strange thing to say, but I saw a surprising number of students try cheating, and saw fairly awful consequences handed down to some of them.

[Oblivious]

	Originally Posted by cannotseethe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. It seems like a strange thing to say, but I saw a surprising number of students try cheating, and saw fairly awful consequences handed down to some of them.

Nah, I wouldn't ever do that. I'm here to learn. Besides, I'm naturally good at it. I'm more likely to be the one someone would be looking to cheat off of, but I wouldn't do that either. What were the consequences of them cheating though? I would have thought that would have been an automatic boot from class or expulsion.

[cannotseethe]

	Originally Posted by Oblivious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Nah, I wouldn't ever do that. I'm here to learn. Besides, I'm naturally good at it. I'm more likely to be the one someone would be looking to cheat off of, but I wouldn't do that either. What were the consequences of them cheating though? I would have thought that would have been an automatic boot from class or expulsion.

It varied some. Usually, they did not receive credit for the course. Several students had to stay an additional year to re-take courses as a result. And yes, some of those were students who didn't cheat themselves, but allowed another student to copy their work. Repeat offenders might have been kicked out of school, though that was very severe and fairly rare.

Not to suggest you'd do anything like that, of course. Though now that I think about it, there are interesting ramifications. For instance, one student searched through the home directory of another on the shared file server, found their work for a homework assignment, and copied it. That they'd copied was detected. The student whose work was copied was innocent, of course; arguably they should have protected their home directory better, but failing to do so isn't an offense. However, it took some time for all the facts of the matter to come out, during which time the perfectly-innocent student whose work was copied was under some scrutiny. I imagine that sucked.

I have one other piece of advice: burn it into your brain that computer science is not the same as computer programming. I saw a number of students frustrated by not recognizing the distinction. CS is about the conceptual fundament of the field; while writing working computer programs factors into learning that fundament, it's only one activity among many. We often graded on the conceptual simplicity of a student's code as much as on whether it worked. It's not about banging out working code; it's about understanding the concepts and then writing code that demonstrates you understand the concepts.

[Bledwings]

Dont worry so much i can program like nothing its pretty easy i also could build a computer with my eyes closed and repair parts like nothing but because of my high-school grades i have no chance of going anywhere with my skills.... life is great

[Oblivious]

	Originally Posted by cannotseethe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	We often graded on the conceptual simplicity of a student's code as much as on whether it worked. It's not about banging out working code; it's about understanding the concepts and then writing code that demonstrates you understand the concepts.

This is good to know. In that last class I took I usually over complicated things just for the sake of the challenge, but the teacher was ok with it. I guess I should probably tone that down from now on. Thanks for the tip.

	Originally Posted by Bledwings To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	because of my high-school grades i have no chance of going anywhere with my skills.... life is great

That's not true. I was kicked out of high school when I was 16. Now, I'm in college, and I'm carrying a 4.0 so far. Next fall I plan on transferring to a major university, and I have no reason to think they won't accept me. All it takes is a good score on your ACT and your in.

[Necrosis]

	Originally Posted by Oblivious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There were only like 12 people in the class when it started and only like 6 left when it finished. What will it be like at a university level? Will the teacher just plug on and leave the students behind, or will they slow it down and punish the good students for the slackers not keeping up?

That depends on the professor and university. In my exerpience, I've had insanely tough classes where the professor was aware we were behind and he stopped and helped us move forward. I've had other times where they just dont care and fail everyone. And other times where they dont care and curve. Normally they say, if you can't keep up you probably don't belong there.

	What about group work? I don't enjoy working in groups. I can do it. It's not so much cooperating with the people as it is my anxiety from being so awkward in social situations. How much group work is there throughout the computer science degree?

Don't let University level group work deter you. In real life most times you will be on a team. Over time you will become more comfortable. As for the degree, I only had very few 2 person team projects. And genreally I was allowed to pick my partner.

	What is the female population like in computer science classes at the university level? I've only had the one programming class so far, but there wasn't a single girl in there.

Get used to it. On my team there is one cute girl. In my building, two. Out of about 3000 employees. Meh.


Best advice is if you love what you do and what your learning, than don't stop. It will rewrad itself out in the end.

[Kricket]

	Originally Posted by Oblivious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What is the female population like in computer science classes at the university level? I've only had the one programming class so far, but there wasn't a single girl in there.

In my program, out of approximately 150 students there were four girls: me, two girls in the next class below me, and one in the class below that. Of those, only one of the girls was going for a full CS degree, and the rest of us were in Information Systems.

From the female perspective, we often had reason to repeat the saying "The odds are good, but the goods are odd."

A lot of your questions depend heavily on the school and individual professors... if possible, I recommend visiting the campus several times before starting classes so you can get a feel for how things will be. I had professors that would plough on through lectures despite leaving the class miles behind, and professors who would do the opposite. Teamwork was about 50% of my time. Clubs are good for making friends and especially departmental connections.

[rufsketch1]

Algorithm Analysis and Computability Theory will be fun.

From what I hear, if you've done real world programming, pretty much any of the non-theoretical stuff they throw at you in a university will seem like a trivial waste of your time.

There won't be many women to begin with, and by the time you finish your first semester, half of them will have dropped out. But, half of the men will have dropped out too, so this is more of an issue with girls not taking the classes in the first place. In general, the average female comp-sci majors that remain care about their appearance about as much as the average male comp-sci majors do. So. . . at least you won't be distracted, right?

If you want to meet girls, most university Comp Sci programs require you to take a statistics class. If you can get into the same statistics class that the psych majors have to take, there will be girls galore. But, at my university, the psych majors have to take a dumbed down experimental statistics class (these are the formulas, now plug and chug) and the comp sci majors have to take a more advanced calculus based one
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.

[rbc]

	Originally Posted by rufsketch1 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But, at my university, the psych majors have to take a dumbed down experimental statistics class (these are the formulas, now plug and chug) and the comp sci majors have to take a more advanced calculus based one To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. .

But why on earth would you want to date anyone who wasn't in the most advanced math class they could take? Math is way sexy!

[rufsketch1]

	Originally Posted by rbc To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But why on earth would you want to date anyone who wasn't in the most advanced math class they could take? Math is way sexy!

lol, date?

I think you misunderstand my intentions :-P.

[mieu]

	Originally Posted by Oblivious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There were only like 12 people in the class when it started and only like 6 left when it finished. What will it be like at a university level? Will the teacher just plug on and leave the students behind, or will they slow it down and punish the good students for the slackers not keeping up?

A true university might be the pace you need. Whether or not a teacher slows down for the 'slackers' depends on the teacher and the student who is having trouble. The usual protocol would be for the teacher to invite said student to their office hours, or set them up with a TA for extra guidance, so that the instructor can complete chapters of content in a timely manner.

Said office hours are also a good way to ask the teacher for more challenging work, should you find you need it. Don't be satisfied doing just what is on the syllabus if you find it easy or boring.

	What about group work? I don't enjoy working in groups. I can do it. It's not so much cooperating with the people as it is my anxiety from being so awkward in social situations. How much group work is there throughout the computer science degree?

Again, depends on the instructor. I had some that did zero group-work, and others that did much. For my object oriented software engineering course, the whole class was split into 6 groups, and we were given--as a class--the requirements for an application that required different 'components' which would be built by each group. So not only were groups splitting work within one another, but had to collaborate with other groups. For example my group was building a scanner and parser for user input, another group the translator/compiler of the input, another group managed the interface with the database that would take instructions from the translation group which took parsed symbols from my group, which took the input passed by the GUI group, and so on (yes, we build this shit from the ground up in C++ rather than use libraries that would have taken care of the whole parsing/translating thing for us, I coded a dynamic LR parser from SCRATCH </rant>)

This is really how it is when you are coding for a corporation (from my experience in my career). Avoiding 'group work' altogether may hurt you in the long run because realistically, you will always have to interact, even as an introvert. If you are ineffective at communicating what you need or want from your colleagues (for example, if they misinterpreted a requirement, or flat out did it wrong), you will be frustrated in your job as a developer. Its not about the awkward niceties or getting along, it's about the right language to use, how to present your ideas and opinions effectively when describing software to other developers.

Despite being introverted, you may be surprised at how quickly you find friends in programming classes. Then you can take classes with them, and group with them on assignments. I had two people that I was basically joined to at the hip for my 4 years.

	What is the female population like in computer science classes at the university level? I've only had the one programming class so far, but there wasn't a single girl in there.

I was one of three females in the entirety of classes 2008-2010 (CS majors, that is). Yeah...

Then again, you may be pleasantly surprised!

	"The odds are good, but the goods are odd."

I LOVE this!

	burn it into your brain that computer science is not the same as computer programming.

Best advice in this thread, by far. If you don't like math, then not only will you not enjoy university-level computer science, but you will limit yourself from being the best programmer you can be. Take a gander at some wikipedia articles regarding logic, discrete math, algorithm design/analysis, computational theory and language theory. They are math. Understanding of the concepts leads to what cannotseethe describes as writing 'elegant' code, which makes you a better programmer all-around.

Things that are 'not exactly programming but are related to programming and can involve programming' that you will eventually learn are things like database design, networking, hardware architecture, operating systems, security, and of course, a lot of math. Even the principles of good design require some different thinking than just flat-out programming--I've sadly met quite a few programmers that probably would have made terrible designers (assumptions derived from my few interactions with them and what they revealed to me about how they solve problems). As an analyst I meet with the IT companies of other major corporations, and some of them absolutely boggle my mind with their requirements.

Anywho, you'll likely find all of these the things I listed interesting, so I wouldn't be too worried. It doesn't sound like you're one of those poor souls that decided to go into computer science because they wanted to 'make video games' and who didn't quite stick it out. Sigh...

[Oblivious]

This is really how it is when you are coding for a corporation (from my experience in my career). Avoiding 'group work' altogether may hurt you in the long run because realistically, you will always have to interact, even as an introvert. If you are ineffective at communicating what you need or want from your colleagues (for example, if they misinterpreted a requirement, or flat out did it wrong), you will be frustrated in your job as a developer. Its not about the awkward niceties or getting along, it's about the right language to use, how to present your ideas and opinions effectively when describing software to other developers.

Unfortunately, I've already got experience with group work in a real world working environment. It wasn't in a technical field though. I was working in construction, and I started out in it young. I caught on quick, but the older experienced type that worked there (the ones with no education that had been doing it for 2 or 3 decades) just didn't seem to give me credit for anything, and I never could quite get my points across. I can't count the times I saw them mess something up when I knew it was going to happen, and I couldn't get anyone to listen to me. I guess ineffective communication is one of my strongest liabilities. Hopefully, I can close the gap since I will be working with highly educated people, but from what I have observed in school, I don't think they do too good of a job of weeding those people out, and they let them slip through the cracks. Maybe stupidity is destined to take over the world?

	Despite being introverted, you may be surprised at how quickly you find friends in programming classes. Then you can take classes with them, and group with them on assignments. I had two people that I was basically joined to at the hip for my 4 years.

I hope your right. I've never really had a difficult time making friends once the initial ice was broken. It just seems like over the past years I haven't found myself around people I care to really hang with. Maybe 'trust' would be a better choice of word than 'hang with.' In the last 13 years, I've only met one person that I could have really thought of as a friend, but we got separated by life. It sucks how that happens to everything. There have been a few others that would have been 'good acquaintances', but life interrupted. Shit happens I guess.

	Best advice in this thread, by far. If you don't like math, then not only will you not enjoy university-level computer science, but you will limit yourself from being the best programmer you can be.

I wouldn't describe myself as 'liking' math, but I can do it. I've taken College Algebra, Trigonometry, and Calculus 1 so far, and I've gotten a 100, 97, and 96. Math wouldn't be my favorite aspect of programming, but I understand it will be needed, and I intend to know it well.

	Anywho, you'll likely find all of these the things I listed interesting, so I wouldn't be too worried. It doesn't sound like you're one of those poor souls that decided to go into computer science because they wanted to 'make video games' and who didn't quite stick it out. Sigh...

No, I'm definitely not one of those. While the thought of being involved in a video game sounds interesting, I definitely don't plan on making it a career. I will probably attempt something as a side project one day. I'm not quite sure exactly what area I want to go into, but I do know that isn't it. I'm also not too keen on the thought of corporate programming, but I know that is where a lot of people end up. Maybe I will get lucky and beat the odds.

[aku chi]

	Originally Posted by Oblivious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What will it be like at a university level? Will the teacher just plug on and leave the students behind, or will they slow it down and punish the good students for the slackers not keeping up?

From my experience (CS Major from UVA's Engineering School), the earlier CS classes (shared by non-CS and CE majors) tend towards a slower pace to make sure all of the other engineering majors can get through them. The more advanced classes tend to have a faster pace. If students fall behind, they're expected to seek help during office hours or drop the class.

	Originally Posted by Oblivious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What about group work? I don't enjoy working in groups. I can do it. It's not so much cooperating with the people as it is my anxiety from being so awkward in social situations. How much group work is there throughout the computer science degree?

It depends on the class. The more theoretical classes tend to be exclusively individual. The software engineering classes focus on group-work in an attempt to emulate largescale software projects. The other classes are a mixed bag; it depends on the professor and class. Unless you want to go 100% theoretical, you'll want to become comfortable programming in groups. Even if you're going to be a theoretical computer scientist, you might need to actively collaborate.

	Originally Posted by Oblivious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've never really been much on the school clubs, but I must admit that a programming club might be interesting. I assume they exist? I also assume they probably have competitions? What is that like?

They exist. They have competitions. I never participated; I got enough programming in my classes...

	Originally Posted by Oblivious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What is the female population like in computer science classes at the university level? I've only had the one programming class so far, but there wasn't a single girl in there.

Strangely, CS is one of the most male-dominated disciplines (both in school and out). There were seemingly more female mechanical engineering majors than female CS majors. (I mention Mechanical Engineering as a discipline which requires more advanced math, sterotypically favored by males.) I don't know why there are so few females interested in CS...

	Originally Posted by Oblivious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What was the overall university experience like for your computer classes? I'm looking forward to it, but I was looking forward to this community college too, and I was really disappointed.

I enjoyed it. Some of my professors were poor teachers, but I learned a lot from the others (and the textbooks).

	Originally Posted by Oblivious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Any other advice you can offer that I should know about?

If you go to a university where the CS department is in the Engineering School, you'll be forced to take a lot of math classes. Don't be fooled by the requirements. Computer Science majors rarely, if ever, use Calculus and Statistics in their work. Linear Algebra, Probability, and Discrete Math are slightly more relevant but still rarely required in software development. Just get through the classes you have to.

Don't limit yourself to independent work (both in and out of school). You might be pleasantly surprised by how similar fellow computer scientists and programmers can be. The field is dominated by rationals, so you're likely to find a lot of similar minds. I think you do yourself a disservice by dismissing "corporate programming". I've been developing video games since graduating and I've been very pleased with the work environment and my co-workers' competence. It's not easy, but if you can find a job programming in the entertainment industry, you're almost guaranteed to be working with very competent individuals. The money isn't quite as good as more boring programming applications, though.

[HackerX]

	Originally Posted by aku chi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't know why there are so few females interested in CS...

The explanation, at least on this side of the pond, is that females are actively marketed to and poached by business and other courses. There potentially are more females interested, until they get told of more pay/interesting work/better opportunities in discipline x. I remember being in a discussion with the then facilty head about it. He's view was basically that IT just wasn't "sexy" enough, for every female they did attract, they'd lose 2 to the business facility. The attrition rate of females who started in IT and switched to business was pretty high too.

That being said, it was about 25% female, 75% male when I started my course. (By the end of the third year, it was too hard to tell, about 5 people would show up to lectures, and often enough I wasn't one of them).

Originally Posted by aku chi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Don't limit yourself to independent work (both in and out of school). You might be pleasantly surprised by how similar fellow computer scientists and programmers can be. The field is dominated by rationals, so you're likely to find a lot of similar minds. I think you do yourself a disservice by dismissing "corporate programming". I've been developing video games since graduating and I've been very pleased with the work environment and my co-workers' competence. It's not easy, but if you can find a job programming in the entertainment industry, you're almost guaranteed to be working with very competent individuals.

Corporate programming has it's ups and downs. The right company (and there are plenty out there) and you'll be doing some pretty damn interesting jobs. The people around you are typically good, corporate work downside is always management above you. You do need to be able to work in a team, team communication is really important.

	Originally Posted by aku chi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The money isn't quite as good as more boring programming applications, though.

Heh, I wouldn't be so sure about that
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[Oblivious]

	The more advanced classes tend to have a faster pace. If students fall behind, they're expected to seek help during office hours or drop the class.

This is what I was expecting when I first started. It seems most of the students here just didn't care, and the teacher let it slide. My current physics class is somewhat like this which is what I was expecting out of school all along. While the teacher isn't going at a extremely fast pace, he will explain it in class, but if the student just can't seem to catch it he tells them to come see him during his office hours. We still didn't manage to cover all the material we were supposed to though. It is kind of disappointing. It did cover a lot of information, but I think there was room to squeeze the rest in. I think we should have at least touched briefly on it or something. I hate to start the next class in the series missing a couple chapters. Guess I will have to find the time on my own to catch up.

	I think you do yourself a disservice by dismissing "corporate programming".

I just have trouble picturing myself in a big office building behind some desk for the whole day. I know it seems crazy of me to choose this major with that kind of thinking, but I figured if I was going to go back to school, I should go back for what I had the most interest in. Since I've been playing with computers since I was little, this was it. I guess I'm just in it for the knowledge more than I'm in it for the career. Maybe I am crazy. My family certainly seems to think so. Other people tend to question my decision making logic too, but I'd rather take my own path and fail than take the road more traveled and succeed. It's just the way I am I guess. But, who knows what the future holds? I might just end up there anyway.

---------- Post added 12-05-2010 at 11:44 PM ----------

	Corporate programming has it's ups and downs. The right company (and there are plenty out there) and you'll be doing some pretty damn interesting jobs.

I'm all for interesting jobs, but I imagine it's kind of hard to pick out those specific companies and be lucky enough to actually land a job there. I'm sure I'll end up trying when I start out, but I hope I can quickly move on to bigger, better, and more interesting things.