[dope]

	Originally Posted by Aronnax To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This is very unattractive, but not unique to INTJ women.

I couldn't disagree more, this is probably the major life lesson for me - when I behave nice, I get treated like shit, and the more I treat others like shit, the more they use to admire and love me. Don't know the logic here, but it's always like this..

[tp6626]

	Originally Posted by Aronnax To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm not sure where you got this idea from, men spend a lot of time and energy trying to figure out what they should do to attract women. Spend some time browsing this subforum, it's full of men asking for advice.

I have to agree with this. I would say the majority of threads on here are males trying to brush up on what they have to do to succumb to 'what women want'.

I almost responded to the other post too, but alas I am tired, and I couldn't be bothered to get into another faux-equality argument.

I think the OP would do well not to assume (as MsJoystick obviously does), that "women" have a chip on their shoulder.

And for reference, I put "women" in quotation marks because I think it's an erroneously assigned label. I.e. if anyone does have an actual chip on their shoulder, there is no reason to assign that to their gender. That's a totally irrational thing to do, but something which is done so commonly that it hardly ever gets questioned.
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I think I might actually start being more proactive about trying to raise peoples consciousnesses about that.
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[ElstonGunn]

	Originally Posted by dope To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	when I behave nice, I get treated like shit, and the more I treat others like shit, the more they use to admire and love me.

Those are the only two possibilities?

[dope]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Hmmm... a little distant, stubborn, overconfident, unexpressive of feelings, too independent. More friend than relationship material.

That's exactly what I'm being told usually.

[Aronnax]

	Originally Posted by dope To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I couldn't disagree more, this is probably the major life lesson for me - when I behave nice, I get treated like shit, and the more I treat others like shit, the more they use to admire and love me. Don't know the logic here, but it's always like this..

Are you interested in attracting sycophants or people with a spine? Sycophants will tolerate all kinds of abuse from someone they perceive as strong, provided you acknowledge them. It's not hard to find damaged folks looking for a codependent relationship. People with a spine won't tolerate the "emotionless, careless player, who doesn't give a shit about others". Why would a healthy person want to be with someone who doesn't care about others?

You also seem to be confusing "nice" with "doormat". You can be kind while still pushing back when you get pushed.

[dope]

	Originally Posted by ElstonGunn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Those are the only two possibilities?

Yup. There may be a third one though; to not take things so seriously, because as someone mentioned, INTJ and INFJ take things too seriously, I can't deny I do that. It's just that I don't know, how to not take things seriously? How should you perceive such things as relationship and love, so that it's not too serious, but not pointless either?

	Originally Posted by Aronnax To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why would a healthy person want to be with someone who doesn't care about others? You also seem to be confusing "nice" with "doormat". You can be kind while still pushing back when you get pushed.

I don't know the answer to your question, but I could also ask why then a healthy person doesn't want to be loved and cared?

Hmm, could you please be more specific about where is the boundary between "nice" and a "doormat"? Maybe this knowledge will be my way out.

[Booko]

	Originally Posted by dope To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yup. There may be a third one though; to not take things so seriously, because as someone mentioned, INTJ and INFJ take things too seriously, I can't deny I do that. It's just that I don't know, how to not take things seriously? How should you perceive such things as relationship and love, so that it's not too serious, but not pointless either?

Yes, there is a middle way.

I approached men with the idea to see if they'd make good friends. Let's face it, after a year or so of marriage it comes down to a form of friendship anyway. If I can't be friends with a guy, I wouldn't expect a marriage to last. Once I know I'd want to be friends, I can see where things go from there, if they go anywhere. Worst case scenario is...I make a friend?

I set my boundaries like I would for any friendship, but setting boundaries doesn't imply I have to be cold or ruthless about it. And yes, you can spend the time observing and being cautious about letting someone in too close without tossing warmth overboard.

I concur about looking for an INTP though. Been married to one for 25 years now, and successfully. You'll have to be patient with an INTPs need to cogitate longer before deciding anything and you'll have to keep pulling them out of their heads, but hey, no matter who I married there would've been a challenge of some sort. These challenges I could live with.

ENFPs I can't say. I've had a few good friends, but for myself I'm not sure I could deal so well with being married to an extrovert. That's my personal choice, though.

[ElstonGunn]

	Originally Posted by dope To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's just that I don't know, how to not take things seriously? How should you perceive such things as relationship and love, so that it's not too serious, but not pointless either?

I think suspending judgment to some extent might help. Not entirely-- that would cause plenty of problems on its own. But instead of trying to think eight steps ahead of the present, I've been thinking that it might help to see dating as more of an ongoing "guess and check" kind of thing. If you find someone who catches your fancy, run with it until proven otherwise. Don't try to figure out whether or not you could be with that person five years from now when you've just met that person. There's nothing inherently wrong or stupid about deciding not to make a final decision until you have enough information.

I think a lot of people focus too much on the future, at the expense of the present. Maybe you'll date someone for three months and then it won't work out. That's not the end of the world, and the fact that it didn't work out in a permanent sense doesn't mean that you didn't get anything out of it, or that it was a total failure and waste of time.

I'd say similar things about having rigid lists of criteria on what you're looking for, which I suspect is another problem female INTJs often face.

[dope]

Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Your posts here would suggest that the problem isn't that INTJ women have repellent traits. Everyone has repellent traits to someone. The issue is more that you seem to be attracted to people who aren't attracted to you in return. That's worth examining. What seems to be the problem with the people who are attracted to you? Is it a common trait, or different issues with different people? Also, my advice? Find an INTP or an ENFP. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The problem is that they lose interest in me after some time, I say this, because at the beginning they are eager to communicate, and later on they stop writing, inviting to meet etc. I don't question them why so, and everything just ends up in silence.

[Booko]

	Originally Posted by ElstonGunn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'd say similar things about having rigid lists of criteria on what you're looking for, which I suspect is another problem female INTJs often face.

Ah, I know at least one INTJ male who has this problem as well.

My INTJ daughter and I have worked on my son for that very issue, with some success. It's pretty easy to make a compelling argument for flexibility, it turns out.

[LifesEcstasy]

	Originally Posted by dope To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The problem is that they lose interest in me after some time, I say this, because at the beginning they are eager to communicate, and later on they stop writing, inviting to meet etc. I don't question them why so, and everything just ends up in silence.

Even when INTJ females are going over the top with their expression it can still leave others quite clueless about their intentions. Case in point, I am getting all handsy with my current bf, pretty much groping him every chance I get by my definition. If I were any clearer I'd be naked. But to him he was completely unaware of how I felt about him...and he's an F and all....WTF?

Apparently even when we're being blatant it's very subtle compared to how the rest of the world acts. It may be that you are opening up but your partners have already felt defeated and like they'll never get through to you, or think you are just not interested in them. We also move at a glacial pace compared to others, wanting to check the other person out too much and over analysing everything instead of going with the flow. Couple that with our inability to read the 'moment' and we tend to do stupid or clumsy things when the other person wants to kiss us, killing it.

As an immature INTJ I had clingy disease and yet never spent more than 2 days solid without a boyfriend. In recent years I've grown into my preferences more and find it much harder to connect with partners. My F is fairly evenly developed alongside my T but I tend to revert to T mode in romantic situations which doesn't help.

[Booko]

Good God, LifesEcstacy...you're dating my husband?

(And here I thought he was just clueless-seeming because that was a typical INTP thing.)

[ElstonGunn]

	Originally Posted by LifesEcstasy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Apparently even when we're being blatant it's very subtle compared to how the rest of the world acts.

One thing I heard in my public speaking classes was that, in order to be lively enough for the audience, try being about 20 percent more animated than you think is reasonable. The idea is that people tend to overestimate the effects of their own actions when it comes to conveying emotion. Do you think something sort of like that might help in a dating situation? (...Although, for an INTJ, it'd probably have to be more like "300 percent more lovey-dovey than you think is reasonable."
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)

[Breadpazoid]

	Originally Posted by MsJoyStick To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The clue in all this is to look for a man who is emotionally secure. Don't worry about brains - you have enough for two people. INTJ women need a man who expresses his emotions clearly and straightforwardly - no games, no fear.

THIS. Yes. I agree wholeheartedly. Have some capacity, even unused, for higher thought processes...but first and foremost don't leave me second guessing you or trying to sift through vague social nuance.

[MsJoyStick]

Give up! Get a life: relations with the opposite sex are supposed to make your life better; if a relationship doesn't - MOVE ON. Everyone is arguing from their personal little prison of delusions. This is odd, since INTJ's are IDEA people. Why define yourself by some imaginary life you're supposed to live? Create your own life!

[heartland]

I honestly don't think I've ever met a female INTJ in real life, or if I did they scared me too much to engage in any communication beyond a cursory nodding acquaintance. Then again, I don't really have occasion to visit their natural habitat such as (I imagine) science faculties in university campuses.

Ireland is really quite an unevolved society that has just escaped from the dark ages and is not an hospitable environment for such an exotic creature as a female INTJ, who probably believe in such modernist conceits as women being as intelligent as men and only getting married and having kids if they really want to and not because society says they should - so the ones that do exist probably retreat into bitterness or hide their true nature and pretend to be something else.

Society here just about tolerates male INTJ's, once they make an attempt to fit in, go on the beer with the lads every once in a while, feign an interest in sport, and don't rock the boat too much with their mad, crazy, wacky, rational ideas and damnable fact-based logical approach.

Having said all the above, I could be projecting my own issues on to 'society' and could in fact have met plenty of female INTJ's without even knowing it but just been too intimidated to engage in anything approaching a real conversation. I rub along fine with the female INTJ's on this forum, but I can think of one or two that if I met in real life they'd probably scare me so much I literally wouldn't be able to speak. Like, women are supposed to be soft, cuddly, sentimental and silly, right?
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[KelleyBeth]

	Originally Posted by KennyIs2Grif To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Where me and the other INTJ males tend to use our sarcasm in a humerous manner and at least give the appearance of tolerance. The INTJ females I know are usually more cold and ruthless about their dislike of people.

When I get to a point where I do not like someone, I do tend to completely shut them down. I have no interaction with them and have a hard time even pretending to be civil. Having said that, there have only been two cases in my life where I genuinely could not stand an individual. You really have to do something awful for me to be this cold. I do not use sarcasm either. I tend to be more cut and dry, or you could say direct. I don't know if this applies to all INTJ females, I can only speak for me.

[MsJoyStick]

I guess it's settled then: The Medusa, Cruella deVille, all witches, female criminals and baby-devouring ghools are actually INTJ females just being their cold and inhuman selves! Guess I'll go dust off my vials of poison, feed the snakes on human flesh, and sharpen the knife I use for castrating my boyfriends if they become boring! Ta, ta.....

[Gloed]

	Originally Posted by MsJoyStick To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I guess it's settled then: The Medusa, Cruella deVille, all witches, female criminals and baby-devouring ghools are actually INTJ females just being their cold and inhuman selves! Guess I'll go dust off my vials of poison, feed the snakes on human flesh, and sharpen the knife I use for castrating my boyfriends if they become boring! Ta, ta.....

Aw, we still love ya
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[mindstate]

My last gf is an INTJ and the number one repellents I can think of were:

1. Not obvious enough when showing interest.
2. Way too blunt around other people.

But since we both were analytical and sneaky, we both knew what was going on and mutually stalked one another until we had a relationship! To a less apt type, she would probably have come across as rude and uninterested.

[Malsqueek]

	Originally Posted by Booko To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I approached men with the idea to see if they'd make good friends. Let's face it, after a year or so of marriage it comes down to a form of friendship anyway. If I can't be friends with a guy, I wouldn't expect a marriage to last. Once I know I'd want to be friends, I can see where things go from there, if they go anywhere. Worst case scenario is...I make a friend?

From a male point of view, this is how I prefer to do things as well.

If I am interested in a woman romantically, I ALWAYS try out friendship first. In my experience, the danger of becoming "too good of friends" to develop into a sexual relationship is far higher for men than women. In general, (at least for myself and the male friends I know well enough to speak for) there isn't really any such thing as the "friend zone" when it comes to women. Try making good friends, then choosing one to develop further.

From your earlier responses, how far into the romantic aspect of a relationship are you getting with men when you "change"? I can see, if I felt like I was really getting to know someone, and then 2-3 months in they get LESS communicative and LESS involved, that I would be put off. I'd probably start waiting for the fight from some stupid crap that I'd done, and then wonder why it never came, before assuming this was the "please leave" and move on.

[LifesEcstasy]

	Originally Posted by MsJoyStick To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Give up! Get a life: relations with the opposite sex are supposed to make your life better; if a relationship doesn't - MOVE ON. Everyone is arguing from their personal little prison of delusions. This is odd, since INTJ's are IDEA people. Why define yourself by some imaginary life you're supposed to live? Create your own life!

	Originally Posted by MsJoyStick To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I guess it's settled then: The Medusa, Cruella deVille, all witches, female criminals and baby-devouring ghools are actually INTJ females just being their cold and inhuman selves! Guess I'll go dust off my vials of poison, feed the snakes on human flesh, and sharpen the knife I use for castrating my boyfriends if they become boring! Ta, ta.....

Yes everyone here is deluded except you. Congratulations! You're a special little snowflake...mkay.
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Perhaps these are good examples of an INTJ female and repellant traits. Let's see there's condescension, sarcasm, venomous attitude, ranting...I could go on. But I don't think these traits are necessarily an INTJ thing.
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[Sparko]

hey dope
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I think you're basing too much of your relationship pattern on your INTJness. It sounds to me like you have a really big heart and a lot of passion. Sometimes folks with big ole hearts like that get them cut very easily. So beyond the prototypical INTJ shell, you probably developed the "kind hearted person" shell to protect further. And when you get comfortable with a man and get vulnerable, that big heart comes wildly gushing out to the shock and confusion of everyone (including yourself I expect). I imagine you just don't know what to do with it when the waterfall begins. At best, the stark contrast may give men the impression that they have an emotionally unstable lady on their hands. Most men I know see a radical change in behavior as a red flag.

My advice is for you to practice breaking some of those walls down and relating to your emotions in a way that genuinely honors you. What attracted me to my INTJ was his quiet kindness. Tiny acts in observing him over an hour spoke volumes about who he was as a man. Bring your kind heart to every part of your life and you won't have to worry about insecure assholes wasting your time. The more easily men can see your big heart, the more likely it is you will attract one that wants more of it. Also, it'll probably feel really good too and happy people are attractive to both sexes.

[MsJoyStick]

Dear Life Ecstasy - sarcasm? Of course. What else to do when the conversation gets silly? Condescension, ranting? Not at all. I'm just old enough to have passed through that period of life when hormones tell us that sex is everything: the function of sexual attraction is to get male & female together just long enough for reproduction to take place. The rest is a cultural nightmare!

Women who rely on physical attractiveness for a large chunk of their self-esteem and identity are in for a rude shock and many trips to the plastic surgeon. It's better to build character, contentment and solid relationships - they do exist... One should ask - if I wasn't beautiful (provided one is) would anyone pay attention to me?

[Fubudis]

In my experience, which is both limited and not necessarily accurate:

INTJ females are incredibly attractive due to their ambition and intelligence. The only problem that arises is their inability to control their own thoughts. They over-analyze absolutely everything and can end up talking themselves out of good things. I can hardly blame them, as I sometimes do this too as a defense mechanism.

I've found that to break down this wall of over-thinking, the best solution is to empathize with them.