[SelfMadeBum]

	Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's much more harmful, for me at least, to assume that their opinion is the one that is wrong.

That's just the thing; for many many many things, there is no real right or wrong, just personal preference.

[Zsych]

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You can't work too hard to be unbiased.

There's a point where you're questioning yourself to an impractical level. Also, too much analysis and control stifles your emotions. Thus... don't work too hard to be unbiased - especially in relationships... just be reasonable.

	Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's much more harmful, for me at least, to assume that their opinion is the one that is wrong.

Do you find that if you start being critical of people there's no end to it and you find them pathetic little creatures?

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There's a point where you're questioning yourself to an impractical level. Also, too much analysis and control stifles your emotions. Thus... don't work too hard to be unbiased - especially in relationships... just be reasonable.

It depends on what the goal is. If it's seeking harmony in a close relationship, well, damned if you're not already biased, but that just makes it even more dangerous not to stop and evaluate what feels fair and right to you, and then be willing to negotiate.

In other situations, it's being analytical that will help with questions like, "am I right or wrong in this situation?", "what could I do differently, if anything?", "is the other person wrong, and if so, what about?", and "is this a disagreement over values, procedures, interpretation of events?". Without analysis, it becomes impossible to parse that out.

Questioning yourself only becomes impractical if you start going around in circles. If that happens, maybe you need different questions. Rudy mentioned values being derived from relationships with others (if I'm not misunderstanding?). Some combination of others' input and reference to what you consider axiomatic should suffice.

I don't understand how working towards being unbiased and "being reasonable" are at all dissimilar.

[LionsPride]

	Originally Posted by cannotseethe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Some things are outside your capacity to control. The reactions of others to you often lie within that set. Could it be you're having trouble accepting your limitations?

^this.

Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Thanks for the story. I've been reflecting on this a bit and, sad to say, I can't think of any experiences I had with being disliked growing up. It's just not something I developed the mechanisms for dealing with, and so it seems to have developed into this enormous crutch; I've been spoiled, essentially. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Now that I'm more consciously aware of it, perhaps I can do something about that, because it's certainly not healthy.

I wasn't sure if you had previous experience of being disliked when I gave my story, but your state reminded me very much of what I went through the first time. Not every child I had ever met liked me, but generally there was never any animosity. This case was the first time an adult disliked me and expressed that for reasons I could not know/understand. I can only imagine if my neighbour was some one I respected (I didn't know them well enough to say either way at the time) how much more it would have plagued me.

What I can say is that cannotseethe's comment about accepting limitations is quite true. The idea people dislike other people wasn't new to me nor was I exempt from previously disliking a few people, yet up until that point I had not been disliked to that degree before. The fact it hadn't happened to me before created some sort of expectation that being disliked should not happen to me and that it hadn't happened before because I was able to prevent it (essentially, I was in control). Now it's fairly obvious that there are a lot of actions that are within your control that certainly improve your chances that you will be liked, but improving your chances and succeeding 100% of the time are not the same. You are liked often because you are likable, but you can't control never being disliked by being likable.

At some point you will meet a person that your personality, that intrinsic quality that is you, is not going to mesh well with and they will dislike you for that which you should never change. For me, it is the people that take my assertiveness as being disrespectful that I have the most trouble with. In their case I may be polite and considerate when I ask them a question, but in their eyes the fact I even asked is disrespectful; how do I not know my place, they wonder. I suppose I could stop being assertive on the basis that some people find assertive offensive, but even if it was something I was willing to get rid of, other's find passive offensive. I could never win. Their preference for disliking a person rather than seeing the value that person has outside of a few personality conflicts is something I can't control and I've learned to accept that.

[stock]

When young I was very sensitive about what others thought of me. We moved often so, always being the new kid, few friends and exclusion were the norm. I would read quietly and entertain myself mostly. Middle school was very, very painful. At that point the other children were looking for targets and the odd kid is an easy target. There was a great deal of hurt and sadness, but eventually I became very angry-then cold. I built a pre-emptive Te wall to analyze incoming feedback from other people. Those whose emotional opinions were valuable, I accept. Those who are not-I dont ignore. I do prevent it from hitting my emotional core first. Then I try and pick apart what the rationale is for the dislike. I listen, ask questions if possible, accept that no emotional overtures should be made, accept the relationship will be limited and cold, then try and salvage feedback that might be valuable for my own self improvement. I accept that they may dislike me, but that doesnt mean I cant learn and work with them to accomplish shared goals. There is a great deal of internal self talk and internal self analysis that accompanies this. Sometimes the hurt still remains. Sometimes I think I should listen more to that hurt.

I have close friendships with a limited number and then more objective, practical relationships with most people. I try to connect intellectually, not emotionally, mostly.

^^Note all of the above is kind of doing what you first asked about-changing my core self in a way to prevent being influenced by others dislike or rejection.

Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Thanks for the detail and encouragement. No, I'm not selling out, nor do I intend to. Part of the dislike arises because of my refusal to bend on what is a very important principle to me; if the dislike cannot be overcome because of this refusal, then that's unfortunate, but I won't be broken up about it. Still, I couldn't really blame them either, in spite of my disappointment. Naturally, this was the very first thing I did, and have continued to do. I think a large measure of misunderstanding has been dealt with, but not all conflict arises out of misunderstanding. Sometimes there are irreconcilable differences, and this is something I shy away from too strongly.

Rudy, is this some sort of logical principle that you are sticking to? What grounds you in refusing to budge, even if it means they may dislike you, when in general you seem so greatly affected by others disliking you? The reason I inquire is that it may be a source of strength if the same sort of grounding principle could be applied to other situations.

Can you apply your understandings that sometimes there are irreconcilable differences as a logical principle you use in interactions with others? Perhaps it is a logical part of any people system? In these cases I try to understand those diffs are often not due to intent or desire, but simply great differences between how others view the world. You can be aware of this, but it doesnt mean it is worth the effort of trying to change it. Sometimes it is best to step away?

	Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've never bought the idea that the reactions of others to me are outside of my control. The reactions of others to a specific action I do are outside of my control, but my actions themselves are certainly within that control and, thus, the reactions.

This implies you can control what others feel...be aware you may have lost half of your audiance under this assumption. Especially with regards to how they "feel" about you in that moment. Again, accepting you cant make others like you...it is sort of just how the world works.

	Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Again, the issue here is not that they are assholes or idiots. Fundamentally, I think the reason people disliking me bothers me so much is that it means there is something to dislike. Something wrong with my behavior; a moral or ethical failing. Fe means I take my values externally, to a large extent.

Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

No, this isn't helpful. The reactions of others are the only real lever I have with regards to self-improvement. Beginning to blame others might prevent their reactions from wounding me, but it would lead, almost inexorably, toward a completely ego-centric Rudy, assured in my own righteousness and inerrancy. Not an end I desire. For me, it serves as a signal that there is something wrong with me, and my approach. Not always, but it makes me check myself. If I got rid of the bad feeling that came with negative reactions from others, I would truly have no capacity for self improvement on an ethical level, I don't think.

Could you take a Ti approach to the topic as Vamp suggests in the below quote? It is a delicate balance to be sure, as you might get stuck in a trap of self justification, but on some level begin to separate and recognize that only certain people should be allowed very deep into your Fe circle, whose opinions are weighted heavily, and that others are best kept on the periphery, whose opinions are weighted more lightly. Not ignored, via a shrug or doorslam, but kept a bit more distant. By placing them out a bit-when your do receive negative feedback you can then evaluate it in a Ti fashion as Vamp suggests.

Their opinions are still of great value-but it is okay to allow for a moment of questioning how of important this particular person's opinion is and also how you might be misunderstanding their opinion. How might they mispercieve the situation and then be communicating that in a way that you misunderstand and take too much to heart? For me, I have to be very careful about feedback from NFJs for instance, as it gets very convoluted and I misinterrpret it.

Also, perhaps you can establish individuals who serve as Fe grounds. In a situation where you do find yourself torn, speak with them and explain your rationale and how you feel-then ask them for an honest assessment as to if you are being self centered. Perhaps make sure they are not simply people who will tell you what you seek to hear but are instead people who represent a very fair Fe perspective-they really will speak for a more normative set of external values, rather than simply support your actions.

Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It depends on what the goal is. If it's seeking harmony in a close relationship, well, damned if you're not already biased, but that just makes it even more dangerous not to stop and evaluate what feels fair and right to you, and then be willing to negotiate. In other situations, it's being analytical that will help with questions like, "am I right or wrong in this situation?", "what could I do differently, if anything?", "is the other person wrong, and if so, what about?", and "is this a disagreement over values, procedures, interpretation of events?". Without analysis, it becomes impossible to parse that out.

[miche001]

"Liked" is such a relative term. What is likable to one is offensive to another.

I would recommend NOT to strive for a soul of ice. Hey, that soul is yours, why ice it?

Do more to be likable in your own eyes and "own it." People, especially abusive people, have a radar. They pick up on the emotional vibe of others. They observe countenance, dress, body language in order to size up a potential victim.

Then, when they believe they can get over on you, they throw out a negative cut, or backhanded joke to see if you'll defend yourself.

It's possible you're giving of a vibe that says "treat me bad" and a soul of ice won't do anything to help that...it'll only cut yourself off from yourself and make matters worse.

Accept that people are human and they WILL hurt you and let you down. That's not being pessimistic, it's being realistic. However, the more accepting you are of yourself, the better you will be able to bounce back from an attack. Build your resilience, take out the garbage-the people who bring you down don't belong in your life.

Finally, try to nurture your relationships. It's risky, but you have to be willing to step out there and build relationships with different types of people. Find a group that share a common interest. Is there something you do better than anyone else? Try to find a way to use that.

It's not an easy journey, but if you're self accepting, at least you're doing it honestly

[Bec]

I don't expect everyone to like to so I don't sweat over it.
But when it comes to people that I care about, then I find it important that I feel liked by them.

[Rachel45]

Despite my hardcore analyzing of the unreasonable crap I hear from others, I still find myself seeking approval; a knee-jerk response I learned from my wayward childhood I suppose. If I compromise my values for the sake of a paltry approval from others, how will I learn a damn thing about how I really think and feel about what I am doing; my beliefs become tainted in the process; best to believe in yourself and let your mistakes be born of your experimenting.

[sadf]

Start small. Flip someone off.

[Anreader]

You don't need to get over wanting to be liked. You need to stop believing it is your fault if someone doesn't like you. You cannot make everyone like you, and, truthfully, you probably don't really want that. Think of all the time you'd have to spend socializing. *shudders* I may not like someone because of how they smell or how they style their hair. Would you really want to be friends with someone who would dislike you for such an arbitrary reason? I just assume people like me unless they do something to prove otherwise. Then, I ignore them forever.

[Jaco]

After being one of the most unpopular boys in high school (wearing glasses, playing classical music, bad at sport, and big and strong enough to beat the jocks to pulp which made matters more complicated), I just got used to it. I have only a few good friends and people I get along with, and that is sufficient.

[NuvoleBianche]

I used to care about what people thought of me, then I realized, why should I? These people don't know me, they know nothing about where I come from and who I am. So I took to doing what I do and I shut out the stupid people...

If you know the reasons are untrue, why do you listen to them anyways? It's a waste of energy and thought on matters that are completely unsubstantial.

[Kmal]

If you're doing things to people that makes them not like you - are you happy with your actions?

[ya lyublyu tebya]

You have to like yourself enough for it not to matter if others like you!
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[Imperator]

By really analyzing who likes me and for what reasons.

If I don't care about the reason why they don't like me, I'm not really going to care about them not liking me.

Reasons for liking me that aren't true are annoying, by virtue of being false, but I chalk that up to their fault, not mine. Mistruths tend to get exposed over time anyway, and I kinda relish those moments where people who thought they knew me wind up looking like idiots.

Besides, even if they don't get exposed for factually wrong reasons, they can't really cause damage anyway, because they're factually wrong.

[katrin]

Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It's a problem for me; crippling in some instances. Even when I know the reasons I'm disliked are factually untrue, it seriously, seriously, bothers me, enough to get me feeling really low. So INTJs (and others), share some tips on how to develop the Soul of Ice that comes so naturally to you. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. How does one get over a need to be liked?

To me, it's maybe part of Fi logic. People are different from each other and some are naturally compatible and others are not. To be someone universally liked would seem to require a commitment to placing oneself at the median of all personality traits, values, etc.


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I don't think that's possible.

I sometimes almost like people I dislike because the mutual dislike was so predictable as to be somewhat absurd and definitely amusing.

[Singlestone]

I've noticed a lot of references to Fe in this thread. Perhaps a suggestion that an iron will would be helpful? Anyway, I'm one of the folks for whom it's easy to dismiss the opinions of strangers. I can't, and don't care to, control what they think of me, in large part because they also have no influence over me. Let em be wrong. Why should I care?

[drake2]

I've found the need to be liked is strongly linked to the need of others in a general sense. In order to get your needs met, you need to be liked so that those others will want to fill your need.
I have no Fe use at all however, so I have concentrated my energies on becoming as self sufficient as a person can be so as not to need others an therefore eliminating the need to be liked from my life.
I'm not sure you can change your Fe use, or if you just are what you are permanently, but it will be necessary if you want to drop your need to be liked.

[swizzluvin]

if a person don't like me i brush it off. for 1 person that don't like me there are 20 that do
besides i love myself to much to care what other people think.as long as i can throw a smile
on my face i could care less.

[MunkySpanker]

Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It's a problem for me; crippling in some instances. Even when I know the reasons I'm disliked are factually untrue, it seriously, seriously, bothers me, enough to get me feeling really low. So INTJs (and others), share some tips on how to develop the Soul of Ice that comes so naturally to you. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. How does one get over a need to be liked?

here's how an INTP's mind works

problem: you want to get over the NEED to be liked

Solution: figure out why (disease) the need (symptom) is there in the first place, solve that why, and the symptom (the NEED) should disappear on it's own.

So let's start here:

1. WHY -- why do you FEEL the NEED to be liked? (I capitalize the important words if you haven't noticed, okay last time I do that)

Maybe you require feelings of "LIKE" from others in order to be at peace with yourself? Maybe you're like a mirror of sorts, and you cannot reflect good emotions/feelings unless those feelings are projected onto you?

I'm just guessing here -- because my INTP'ness (the introspective nature at least) allows me to live within the confines of my own head. Whether or not someone else likes or dislikes me rarely has the potential to disrupt my mood.

The solution might be to stop caring about what other people think because it doesn't fucking matter what other people, dogs, robots, or crickets for that matter, think. It sounds like an simple, trite, and obvious solution, but it's the one that you need to hear.

What other people think DOESN'T matter. It never has, and it never will! haha.