[Rudy]

	Originally Posted by Jantei To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The quantity of the people liking or disliking you should not matter. It is the quality that both you and Zsych should worry about.

Oh, I agree absolutely. But the thing is... I want both... and I'm not sure how to stop.

[Cygnus]

	Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Oh, I agree absolutely. But the thing is... I want both... and I'm not sure how to stop.

Instead of fighting the feeling, let it wash over you and ride it out. It is a challenging concept and practice, since most are conditioned to deal directly with the source of an issue. I have had success with it and perhaps you will as well. *not to be used as denial or avoiding a situation*

sometimes the only choice you have left, is how to deal with it...

mood music, my mom says it is my theme song
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[rara avis]

	Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In this case, it wasn't so much that, as the shock of finding out I was disliked to an extent I hadn't expected.

That would throw me for a loop, absolutely. I'd get over it, but I'd be unnerved for a bit by getting blindsided. I hate when other people know things about me or to do with me that I don't. HATE it. I learned very early on that if there's a flaw, I want to be the first one to own it rather than have it thrust on me.

	Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A lot of what you say is familiar to me, but not this in particular. Me wanting people to like me has nothing to do with practical purposes. I want people to like me even if I'll never talk to them again. And this isn't really healthy. It can't be. Nor is it realistic. And I think I'm just starting to realize that.

I think that's an inclination that can serve you- and others- really well. But as a need- yeah, maybe not ideal.

	Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Again, the issue here is not that they are assholes or idiots. Fundamentally, I think the reason people disliking me bothers me so much is that it means there is something to dislike. Something wrong with my behavior; a moral or ethical failing. Fe means I take my values externally, to a large extent.

Well, for my part- fwiw- maybe this is where, for me, Fe got beaten down to the bottom of my Top Four. I was taught so clearly as a kid that I was liked (by adults, at least) in spite of my incredible shortcomings- because my shortcomings were always up for discussion and analysis. So I can think of several reasons why people would dislike me, or at least dislike having to deal with me, and I understand them, kind of accept those reasons. They can be a bit frustrating to me; I find myself incredibly frustrating, on a regular basis. But in order to "survive" my childhood (not that it was exactly hard knocks), I had to develop a pretty flexible sense of self worth, which is to some extent actually tied in to the very things which are infuriating about me. I was simultaneously taught that the things that everyone wanted to fix were actually what was special about me. Confusing, but it sort of works.

And, in turn, this knowledge of my potential to irritate fuels my use of Fe, as I mentioned above- as a self-defense tool.

My sister (ENFJ) is much closer to what you're describing, especially when she was younger. She was always very vulnerable to the opinions of others, and certain people sense that like blood in the water. The very need to be liked, or to make people- everyone- like you, can somehow encourage certain people to try to take you down a bit. I get that with my sister, still from time to time- an urge to put her in her place, and defy her need to make everything nicey-nicey. Though I'm trying to think how to explain the motivation, and I'm at a loss. Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with your situation, anyway.

In recent years, she has become oddly jaded- a result of making herself open to, or even just spending time around, people who were not good, or worth her investment. I think she's manually closed herself off a little too much, and I'm waiting for her to catch her balance, there- which I think she will. She doesn't wear jadedness well. I don't recommend it for you, either.

It sounds like you have taken the sensible, healthy action- clearing up what can be cleared, and more or less accepting the rest. What's unhealthy about that? Are you selling out who you are and what you believe in, just to please people? I have a hard time really imagining you doing that.

Every major trait you have in your inventory will inevitably bite you in the ass as much as it helps you out. Balance. I think right now, you're just getting bitten.

[Zsych]

	Originally Posted by Jantei To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The quantity of the people liking or disliking you should not matter. It is the quality that both you and Zsych should worry about. Pandering to the masses is a recipe for disaster.

He's trying to manage how he feels and find happiness. What does doing what is sensible have to do with that? In any case, numbers are also important. You should have a decent sized network.

@Rudy: Maybe you should try talking to them, reasoning with them, and figuring out their opinions. If you know what they're rejecting, you can agree or disagree with them, and then its not so much a rejection of you as 'whatever it is that they perceive and don't agree with'

[Liason]

In my experience, I have an inherent desire to be liked, but I don't know if it is a need. [I'm a bit fuzzy on my internal emotions.] Even so, I did have this issue. I used to be overly concerned with everyone having a good opinion of me. It really bothered me if someone didn't like me, or, especially, if they were indifferent. When I posted the quote featured below, I meant it as generaly advice. It helped me quite a lot when I was having trouble trying to be liked by everyone. For those that completely disliked me though, the ones I knew I wouldn't be able to sway to like me without time-wasting effort, I learned to dismiss. There is no benefit from wasted time. Eventually, I've found some sort of intuitive system for increasing my compatibility with others, even those those that have a very clear and true dislike of me. It doesn't waste time trying to get them to like me, rather, just displays my own lack thereof hostility to them. If you keep interacting with them [not to the point of being invasive] and don't try to display your desire for them to like you, I've found it works well, at least in dissipating their dislike of me. It's rather difficult to dislike someone for a long period of time, that genuinely does not dislike you back.

Originally Posted by Liason

I find this happens with a lot of my friends with Fe in their main 4 functions. I think it might help if you try to put yourself in their mindset, or situation. Try to conceptualize what they actually think about you. Oftentimes, people that come across as negative aren't actually orienting their dislike at you. In my experience, it stems from previous factors. Though rationalizing away your feelings of wanting to be liked may not work, after seeing how shallow that dislike you often experience is, you might be able to overcome it.

Just my opinion.

[fokalina]

What I expect of others depends on what I expect of myself, e.g. I assume I'll like you, so I assume you'll like me. I've never tried to make anyone like me; I just expect that they will/do.
^This is not completely rational. But it's what I've thought (or chosen to think), for now.

The first time I experienced (the effects of) someone disliking me, was with my best friend/roomie. I was 20. I'd known her for a year, and loved her dearly, but was constantly hurt by things she said and did (to me and others). I decided to move out, and tried to be as considerate about my decision as possible. But she was furious. She took my hurt as a sign that I didn't like her, that I'd never liked her. I was devastated.

I rarely feel a desire to be liked, let alone a need. (Maybe because I'm "irrationally" assuming I already am?) Nevertheless, I can understand a lot of what you think/feel/experience. I could have written Post #23.


To address what I said before...
The question: From whose perspective are these objectively-factual instances important? was trying to "get at" the answer: Rudy's.

	Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm speaking of statements about actions taken, or things done, which actually did not happen as stated. Objective untruth.

From my perspective, those^ are far from important. When I know myself to be correct, and someone disagrees with me, I "Whatever."
And actually, it is this

	Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	things like judgments of my character or motivations; those are subjective, and may be true or untrue, depending on perspective.

that bothers me.
If I dislike actions taken or things done, I do not consequently dislike the person. But if I disapprove of their character and motivations, I will likely disapprove of their person.

I think this is an important
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distinction. People differ. (This goes far beyond actions vs. motivations.) Something that means everything to one, will mean nothing to another. Of course, realizing this does nothing to stop people from disliking you, but I think it can make you care less. You care less, because you care differently.


Oh, last thing...

	Originally Posted by Liason To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's rather difficult to dislike someone for a long period of time, that genuinely does not dislike you back.

^This is a good point. And it's worked in at least two people's lives.
The girl I spoke of earlier, my ex-friend (or ex-pseudo friend), and I had very similar schedules, and we saw each other often. For a semester or two, she either completely ignored me or was rude and mean. But I, for better or for worse, still liked her and occasionally said/shared something. Eventually, she got to where she smiled, laughed, and even sort of initiated contact.
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(We've since parted ways, but I hurt less.)

[LionsPride]

	Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's a problem for me; crippling in some instances. Even when I know the reasons I'm disliked are factually untrue, it seriously, seriously, bothers me, enough to get me feeling really low.

I had the good fortune, I suppose you could call it good in hindsight, to have experienced something in my childhood that helped me get over this feeling.

I was 12ish and one of the other kids on the street told me that my neighbour had made comments to them about how bad an influence I was. I wasn't welcome in their house, apparently. This was kind of shocking considering I could count on my hand the number of times I had ever interacted with them and I was your standard honour-roll goodie two shoes. Up until that point I had never known an adult to ever dislike me, dislike enough to mention it to other people, particularly my peers. My friend told me the information in confidence so I wasn't going to march over there to deal with it. I never interacted with my neighbour so there was no off-treatment or any reason to rectify the situation, so though I was curious, I got used to the idea that I was disliked for reasons unknown. I came to realize that just as there are people that I click with, click with more than anyone else, that it stands to reason there would be people that fit on the other end of the scale. Either due to values, personality or wrong place wrong time there are going to be people that won't like me. People that won't like me for the parts of who I am that other people love. Given the choice of being mildly liked by everyone or loved/hated by few, I decided I preferred the latter and was glad that was the way things were.

Years later my mother found out the circumstances that lead to this hostile opinion of me. She came home and told me and we had a good laugh about it. It reflected more on my neighbour than it did me. Still, I'm glad for the experience that I got from the years I did not know, considering that my discomfort was merely reflection rather than treatment.

[cannotseethe]

Some things are outside your capacity to control. The reactions of others to you often lie within that set. Could it be you're having trouble accepting your limitations?

[Zsych]

Blame them instead of yourself for their opinions of you
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[Mindfreak]

I never cared whether or not I was liked; in fact, I found it more interesting when someone dislikes me. It clearly gives me the advantage.
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[SelfMadeBum]

Have you ever just thought about the actual, manifest negative effects on your life (separate from your feelings) that being disliked will cause?

I don't think there are that many, if any.

So for me it kind of comes down to - Why feel bad about something for which the only negative effect is feeling bad?

[Muumeh]

SelfMadeBum has a good point there. If you can separate actual effects and your feelings about being disliked, your need of being liked might decrease a lot.

[intj4ever]

I think the best way is to associate with people who "get" you and who DO like you. INTJs at their core a bit non-conformist - and people tend to like what is familiar or like themselves.

[HAL 9000]

Pleasing people isn't a bad thing. It's necessary if you want to live or advance in this world.

but...

The key to finding a balanced approach is, I think, to find a higher set of values that will always be more important to you than the people you serve. They may, in fact, be the reason why you serve them.

When called to their defense, the people pleaser in you should take a back seat.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by rara avis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It sounds like you have taken the sensible, healthy action- clearing up what can be cleared, and more or less accepting the rest. What's unhealthy about that? Are you selling out who you are and what you believe in, just to please people? I have a hard time really imagining you doing that. Every major trait you have in your inventory will inevitably bite you in the ass as much as it helps you out. Balance. I think right now, you're just getting bitten.

Thanks for the detail and encouragement. No, I'm not selling out, nor do I intend to. Part of the dislike arises because of my refusal to bend on what is a very important principle to me; if the dislike cannot be overcome because of this refusal, then that's unfortunate, but I won't be broken up about it. Still, I couldn't really blame them either, in spite of my disappointment.

I think you're right, though, about being bitten. It's unavoidable, I guess, but I still think I'm taking this to unhealthy extremes, and need to work on being less focused on pleasing others in general.

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	@Rudy: Maybe you should try talking to them, reasoning with them, and figuring out their opinions. If you know what they're rejecting, you can agree or disagree with them, and then its not so much a rejection of you as 'whatever it is that they perceive and don't agree with'

Naturally, this was the very first thing I did, and have continued to do. I think a large measure of misunderstanding has been dealt with, but not all conflict arises out of misunderstanding. Sometimes there are irreconcilable differences, and this is something I shy away from too strongly.

	Originally Posted by Liason To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's rather difficult to dislike someone for a long period of time, that genuinely does not dislike you back.

I'm not sure about that, unfortunately. It's easy enough to dislike someone for their actions, for example, even if they have no idea who you are (though that isn't the case here).

	Originally Posted by fokalina To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	From my perspective, those^ are far from important. When I know myself to be correct, and someone disagrees with me, I "Whatever." And actually, it is this that bothers me. If I dislike actions taken or things done, I do not consequently dislike the person. But if I disapprove of their character and motivations, I will likely disapprove of their person.

Misconceptions about sequences of events, however, are much easier to clear up than subjective misconceptions about character. The latter needs to be proven over time, not stated.

	Originally Posted by LionsPride To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I had the good fortune, I suppose you could call it good in hindsight, to have experienced something in my childhood that helped me get over this feeling.

Thanks for the story. I've been reflecting on this a bit and, sad to say, I can't think of any experiences I had with being disliked growing up. It's just not something I developed the mechanisms for dealing with, and so it seems to have developed into this enormous crutch; I've been spoiled, essentially.
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Now that I'm more consciously aware of it, perhaps I can do something about that, because it's certainly not healthy.

	Originally Posted by cannotseethe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Some things are outside your capacity to control. The reactions of others to you often lie within that set. Could it be you're having trouble accepting your limitations?

I've never bought the idea that the reactions of others to me are outside of my control. The reactions of others to a specific action I do are outside of my control, but my actions themselves are certainly within that control and, thus, the reactions.

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Blame them instead of yourself for their opinions of you To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

No, this isn't helpful. The reactions of others are the only real lever I have with regards to self-improvement. Beginning to blame others might prevent their reactions from wounding me, but it would lead, almost inexorably, toward a completely ego-centric Rudy, assured in my own righteousness and inerrancy. Not an end I desire.

---------- Post added 11-07-2010 at 10:30 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Mindfreak To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I never cared whether or not I was liked; in fact, I found it more interesting when someone dislikes me. It clearly gives me the advantage. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I just can't make my mind work like this, I'm afraid. Heh; in some ways I suppose my asking INTJs how not to care about the opinions of others is like a fish asking a bird to teach it how to fly. Not to say the advice here hasn't been helpful! Some of it definitely has. But some of it I just don't have the makeup for.

	Originally Posted by SelfMadeBum To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So for me it kind of comes down to - Why feel bad about something for which the only negative effect is feeling bad?

For me, it serves as a signal that there is something wrong with me, and my approach. Not always, but it makes me check myself. If I got rid of the bad feeling that came with negative reactions from others, I would truly have no capacity for self improvement on an ethical level, I don't think.

	Originally Posted by intj4ever To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think the best way is to associate with people who "get" you and who DO like you.

Again, for me this would lead to the problem of being unchecked, which is not what I want.

	Originally Posted by HAL 9000 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The key to finding a balanced approach is, I think, to find a higher set of values that will always be more important to you than the people you serve. They may, in fact, be the reason why you serve them.

Fi v. Fe, maybe? Still, it's something I can think about. The idea of a set of internal values, independent of other people, is somewhat alien to me, I must admit.

[Mogura]

	Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't want to become cold and jaded... I like my Fe, most of the time...

Becoming cold and jaded is definitely the ticket. Look how well it's worked for me...


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[True Rune]

	Originally Posted by Cygnus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	if you have to point out you are free, then are you really?

There's no such thing as true freedom, but if you have the ability to think for yourself and do what you want no matter what anyone thinks, then it's fine to explain why.

[cannotseethe]

	Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've never bought the idea that the reactions of others to me are outside of my control. The reactions of others to a specific action I do are outside of my control, but my actions themselves are certainly within that control and, thus, the reactions.

Influence is not control; conflating the two leads to occasionally distasteful demonstrations of the pragmatic distinction.

Maybe.

[Trucidus]

Growing-up, I had a LOT of trouble getting over this. I had an older brother who took the spotlight from me a lot (friends, women, achievements, etc.) which caused me to generally try even harder to get people to like me more then him.

After about the 300th or so betrayal/ditching (People using me to get close to my brother) I pretty much just gave everyone the middle finger, and make people play by my rules if they want to be anywhere near me. I pretty much force people to impress me, but once they do, I like to consider myself one of the most loyal friends you can get.

So, yeah. I think distancing myself makes meeting me a little more interesting, and being tough to know weeds out people I generally don't want to know. People love mysteries, and ones that are tough to solve makes you that much more attractive.

[Anhedonic Lake]

Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It's a problem for me; crippling in some instances. Even when I know the reasons I'm disliked are factually untrue, it seriously, seriously, bothers me, enough to get me feeling really low. So INTJs (and others), share some tips on how to develop the Soul of Ice that comes so naturally to you. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. How does one get over a need to be liked?

I am very much like that myself, and used to be even more like that before. I have a few traits from avoidant personality disorder. I think you are going about it the wrong way Rudy.
I too tried to be less avoidant/F and more schizoid/ T. Be careful what you wish for-you might just get it...
I think it is extremely difficult to change ones personality, and even if you do it could mess you up in the process or you might be even less happy with the new you. I think a person who is serious about this risks some dissociation in their endeavour.

Personally, I really think you should try to make small changes to make your natural personality more healthy, rather than go to the opposiate extreme. I can really relate to this. So feel free to ask more questions if you wish.

[JulietCapulet]

Is that why INFJs are so sweet? I don't think INFJs ever have a problem being liked.

I think trying to be more T...will solve the problem. Thinking about how little the opinions of others matter. (Unless you are running for office or it affects you in some other financial way)

[Zsych]

	Originally Posted by Rudy
	No, this isn't helpful. The reactions of others are the only real lever I have with regards to self-improvement. Beginning to blame others might prevent their reactions from wounding me, but it would lead, almost inexorably, toward a completely ego-centric Rudy, assured in my own righteousness and inerrancy. Not an end I desire.

As much as I agree with the value of criticism and how it can help you improve yourself, you also have to recognize the flaws in others. Not all problems derive from you. Blame them when they're wrong. Blame yourself when you're wrong, and be as unbiased about it as you reasonably can (without working too hard to be unbiased).

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	...(without working too hard to be unbiased).

You can't work too hard to be unbiased.

[SelfMadeBum]

Someone is always going to find something "wrong" with you. Can't please everyone all the time. So to assume some wrong doing on your part when really it comes down to innate differences among people, is self destructive and misleading.

[Rudy]

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You can't work too hard to be unbiased.

Agreed.

	Originally Posted by SelfMadeBum To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Someone is always going to find something "wrong" with you. Can't please everyone all the time. So to assume some wrong doing on your part when really it comes down to innate differences among people, is self destructive and misleading.

It's much more harmful, for me at least, to assume that their opinion is the one that is wrong.