[miche001]

It is frustrating, irritating and crazy to deal with a liar. For years, I tried to accommodate and be flexible and understanding...tried not to be harsh or judgmental.

I finally realized it was nothing I was doing. This is just a part of their personality.

Trust is shattered!

SEE CLARIFICATION #19

[ember]

No. Especially ENFJs.

[angelinamax]

I'm sorry. I can sympathize with how you feel as I've been in the same situation. Makes you really wanna stay away from people, huh?

[Imagineering]

I don't mind it. I just adapt to it. Besides, everyone lies.

[Zombicide]

Depends on what they're lying about, it's all about the style of lies for me, if it's not significant or against me, I don't care. If I had children and they lied to me, and they will lie to me, the only thing I'd get upset about when it comes to those kind of lies is the fact that they got caught and so I'd simply tell them to keep their lies to an efficient minimum.

[Booko]

Everyone lies at some point.

I'm more concerned if someone shows a pattern of lying that goes over into self-delusion.

[texzen]

I used to lie a lot. My habit wasn't to shame or hurt anyone nor was it for any sort of personal gain. It was avoidant and to cover up my self-perceived inadequacies. Most of my lies were about my past. I lied about my childhood; I lied about my past marriage and I lied about a few other things.

There was a defining moment for me. Someone caught me in one of my lies. That person was terribly hurt. At first I was defensive and in denial about my lies. The friendship didn’t survive, but I made the decision to quit lying.

Lying was very easy and natural for me. Quitting was/is hard. Sometimes I want to revert back to my pretend world. Mostly I’m happy to be living in reality.

If people think I’m not trustworthy—I can’t change their opinions. I can only change my own behavior. I’m a little ambivalent about coming clean. I’m defensive about my childhood and first marriage.

So. There you have it from a different standpoint.

[Dru]

a good policy, if you value the relationship, is to forgive - depending how grievous the offense was - but don't forget. it would only be your fault after that if you were taken for a ride again by someone you knew to be a liar.

[dinochop]

	Originally Posted by ember To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No. Especially ENFJs.

What makes you point out ENFJs?

[REMwoman]

Originally Posted by texzen To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I used to lie a lot. My habit wasn't to shame or hurt anyone nor was it for any sort of personal gain. It was avoidant and to cover up my self-perceived inadequacies. Most of my lies were about my past. I lied about my childhood; I lied about my past marriage and I lied about a few other things. There was a defining moment for me. Someone caught me in one of my lies. That person was terribly hurt. At first I was defensive and in denial about my lies. The friendship didn’t survive, but I made the decision to quit lying. Lying was very easy and natural for me. Quitting was/is hard. Sometimes I want to revert back to my pretend world. Mostly I’m happy to be living in reality. If people think I’m not trustworthy—I can’t change their opinions. I can only change my own behavior. I’m a little ambivalent about coming clean. I’m defensive about my childhood and first marriage. So. There you have it from a different standpoint.

That is interesting, thanks. Gives me a different perspective on some people and events. Thanks.

[ember]

Past experience with a girlfriend (a data point of one I know). She lies continuously, tells half truths, pastes together unrelated events to show herself in the best light possible.

[Slowandeasy1]

The truth to one person is a lie to another. Surely the MBTI is ample evidence of that simple fact; and, as an INTJ you are probably one of the most mis-understood.

Clarification of truth is a multi-party skill set.

Participate. Do not accept what you do not yet understand; or, you are just as guilty.

Sorry for the rant - the perception of a lie is a pet peeve.

[REMwoman]

	Originally Posted by Slowandeasy1 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The truth to one person is a lie to another. Surely the MBTI is ample evidence of that simple fact; and, as an INTJ you are probably one of the most mis-understood. Clarification of truth is a multi-party skill set. Participate. Do not accept what you do not yet understand; or, you are just as guilty. Sorry for the rant - the perception of a lie is a pet peeve.

The perception of a lie? To me, a lie is a deliberate series of actions on the part of one person to ensure that another person does not know (or find out about) some set of data that would result in some kind of unpleasant consequences were it known. Can you clarify what you mean? I don't follow.

[BellaBianca]

In my teens I made it one of my defining rules to speak truthfully and it proved to be extremely complex.

First I had to know what was true.

Then I had to be able to express it clearly.

Finally, the other person had to understand me and agree with this truth of mine - or be able to explain where I went wrong.

Often it served no other purpose than my self righteousness.

I still prefer to be honest, but I have grown more aware of the limitations of it and I don't step on people just because it is "morally right" to speak the truth any more.

[Slowandeasy1]

	Originally Posted by REMwoman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The perception of a lie? To me, a lie is a deliberate series of actions on the part of one person to ensure that another person does not know (or find out about) some set of data that would result in some kind of unpleasant consequences were it known. Can you clarify what you mean? I don't follow.

The issue for me is one of decision making. If the decision I make is important; and, if it must be based on information I receive from that person the truth is important.

If there is no decision or the decision is not important then the truth does not matter.

1. There is, on occasion, a wilful attempt by some to intentionally mislead. The question is why? If the decision, the issue and the relationship is important, I feel it is my responsibility to find out why?

If the issue does not matter, it does not matter. If the relationship does not matter, it does not matter. However, in this case I assign a level of probability to everything that person says. For example, if she told me she went to the party last night and I find out later that she did not - I assign a probability of 60% to every other statement she makes.

Seems like a pain in the ass; but, I have found that adults rarely intentionally lie - they have learned the consequences are too extreme.

2. I was exposed to the Chinese culture for several decades. For the people I dealt with, the truth was not always the whole truth as is assumed in our culture. They have the concept of the seven veils. For a person who is close to you you tell the whole truth. For a person who is 7 degrees of separation from you, the truth is 1/7 of the whole truth. The system works because it is predictable.

3. It has been my experience that language is the most mis-understood and mis-used tool in our tool kit. I believe the old adage that
a. what a person says is only 7% of the message.
b. Facial expression, tone and gestures form 35% of the message
c. body language and proximics forms the other 58% of the message.
Although I have been professionally trained to obtain the truth I do it very poorly. I have witnessed many people watch a short movie and then try to tell what they saw. The best witness got less than 25% of the essential "facts" correct after several days of other activities.

4. The MBTI has shown me that every person is different and every person has a different form of perception and judgment. We are all subject to instinctive, emotional and unconscious pressures that go far beyond normal understanding.

For these reasons, I cut people a lot of slack.

5. Also, I have found most people who are quick to be "Lie Sensitive" have other agendas and use a "mis-understanding" to justify their own ambitions. This may be innocent as our own inner feelings often project themselves on to others and distort our reality. For others it is less innocent and more manipulative.

I prefer to remain safe rather than sorry for mis-judging some innocent statement or projection.

[Bonamona]

It depends on the individual. People can change, though a number of them don't.

[Slowandeasy1]

Originally Posted by BellaBianca To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

In my teens I made it one of my defining rules to speak truthfully and it proved to be extremely complex. First I had to know what was true. Then I had to be able to express it clearly. Finally, the other person had to understand me and agree with this truth of mine - or be able to explain where I went wrong. Often it served no other purpose than my self righteousness. I still prefer to be honest, but I have grown more aware of the limitations of it and I don't step on people just because it is "morally right" to speak the truth any more.

Well put.

[Imperator]

You can always trust a dishonest man to be dishonest. Honestly.

It's the honest ones you have to watch out for, cause you can never predict if they're going to do something incredibly.....stupid.

[Troll]

I work with liars. I walk by liars on the street. I shake hands with liars. I converse with liars. I've had close relationships with liars. I have close relationships with liars. I've broken relationships because of liars. I've gone to the gym with liars. It seems I'm around liars all the time, and I consistently interact with liars.

Yet I have never trusted a liar.

The worst part is that I've lied to liars.

[miche001]

Let me clarify:
I paid the rent: Actually I didn't now we're 14k in debt and are being evicted
I forgot to tell you I took out a line of credit on the house. Now we owe 6k

We're moving to start a new life together, better hours on the job more time with the kids. Oh, I lied just to move down here so I could get the job.

I didn't tell you I was on probation at my job, and I got fired today.

That kind of perceptive stuff.

[placid]

I can accept white lies and lies that had not done detriments on me. I lie a lot too, but those are about trivial things (eg. telling my friend I was not available for a date 'cos i was already engaged in another but in fact i just wanted to spend time alone at home doing absolutely nothing etc). I lie about some of my backgrounds too if I know they'll never be able to find out the truth, maybe not to the point of 'lying' but only not disclosing the whole or deviating a little from the fact... in job interviews i always lie that i love the job i am applyiing.. sort of...

I would never trust anybody wholly, I trust my intuition, guess that's why they say INTJ's are always 'doubtful'...

[HAL 9000]

Assuming there is an objective reality one can lie about...no.

Everyone lies once in a while, especially when under a certain degree of stress. There are those who have found that it is, in some ways, to their immediate personal advantage to lie. Others seek to bastardize reality in order to cure some deep-seated dissatisfaction instead of actually trying to change it.

In any case it's a very addictive habit that many embrace. It's important to work to see truth where it is given, and focus on how some lies reveal truths about the group or individual telling them.

[titi monkey]

Of course everyone lies. The trick is knowing when to lie (or not lie) and who to lie to (or absolutely refrain from lying to). When the situation is critical and the consequences meaningful, I can only afford to have reliable people around me. And if I want to be known as a reliable person, it's important that I be able produce the correct information in a timely fashion.

The ability to be intentionally misleading is a skill worth possessing; just be careful about how you apply it.

[Soli]

I think it would depend? Everyone tells little meaningless white lies from time to time to avoid unnecessary conflict.

For example, say your wife asked you to take out the trash. You forgot. She calls you on her way home from the store because she saw so-and-so for the first time in years, and wanted to tell you about it, and also mentions the trash. When she asked, you say that you took it out, when you really didn't. However as soon as you get off the phone with her, you take the trash out. She comes home, the trash has been taken out as she asked, and she never knows.

Little things like that, I don't see an issue with. Something very serious however, like cheating, and then lying by saying you didn't, no. That is unforgivable. I could never trust them again, and a relationship is nothing without trust. It would void everything in my mind. To cheat is horrible in of itself, but then to lie about it on top of it? Way worse.

[Anhedonic Lake]

I doubt there has ever been a person alive who has not lied during his her life.