[Vogue]

Should some questions never be asked even if your curiosity will never be satiated? These question comes from an experience I had last night.

I live in Boston currently, and I have been making observations for the past two months about who has the thick Boston accent. In my observation it's been the maintenance men, blue-collar jobs mostly, cops, etc.

Me, being the person that I am, asked my friend; "How does the accent relate to socio-economic position?" I explained my observation then said, "is it expectations of that area of Boston, poverty? What is causing this phenomenon? Are people changing their accent to be more 'intelligent?'"

He answered my question but not before calling me "classist." (There might have been a little bit of playful joking, I don't know I'm bad at telling these things. Regardless there seemed to be an actual accusation in his words.) Frankly I'm still mildly concerned that he thinks I'm a bad person because I asked a question that was insulting? (Even though he's not from Boston and he doesn't have the accent.)

So my questions are:
Does this happen often to other INTJ's? I know it does to me and I'm curious whether our curiosity might work against us in some cases.

Did you ever make comments (based on observation) that you find very innocent, but someone takes offense to?

Do you realize why they took offense after the fact, or do you still not "get it?"

Do you think your comments were actually offensive or just misinterpreted?

[stock]

It would not surprise me if your very direct question relating two observables is misunderstood as an indirect way of actually stating the question as an observed fact.

It may be that you said:

"is it expectations of that area of Boston, poverty? What is causing this phenomenon? Are people changing their accent to be more 'intelligent?'"

I would interpret this as factual questions as I am a very direct communicator and I (often incorrectly) assume others will be in turn.

But it could be misunderstood by someone who communicates more indirectly that you were trying to imply the below via posing questions framed as indirect assertions:

"That accent sounds really low class. It is from those people in that part of town, right? Do they really think they can be more like us by changing their accents?"

I suspect you have offended your friend at first blush and generated the "classist" remark, but via nonverbal cues, he recognized you really were sincere in your line of questioning and not trying to imply anything.

In general, it would it would not surprise me if this happens in general when very direct communicators-like INTJs or other Te users-interact with others with more indirect communication styles.

EDIT-This is "reading into" others communication to pick up unspoken, subtle hints. The best part of INTJs is that you guys tend to say EXACTLY what you mean. There is no guesswork, no need to assume motive or intent, no assumptions. Once we get past the blunt nature of the communication, this is one reason ENFPs adore you guys so much.

[Jonathan Brewer]

	Originally Posted by Vogue To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Should some questions never be asked even if your curiosity will never be satiated?

Only if knowing with certainty is more important to you than the search for truth.

Originally Posted by Vogue To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I live in Boston currently, and I have been making observations for the past two months about who has the thick Boston accent. In my observation it's been the maintenance men, blue-collar jobs mostly, cops, etc. Me, being the person that I am, asked my friend; "How does the accent relate to socio-economic position?" I explained my observation then said, "is it expectations of that area of Boston, poverty? What is causing this phenomenon? Are people changing their accent to be more 'intelligent?'" He answered my question but not before calling me "classist." (There might have been a little bit of playful joking, I don't know I'm bad at telling these things. Regardless there seemed to be an actual accusation in his words.)

Education has a positive correlation with socio-economic status. A lack of education would predispose an individual to lack the finer points of communication, though this is certainly not universally true. More specifically, if the above two lines are true, then it means the children of economically disadvantaged individuals will have had more exposure to undereducated acquaintances and their less than ideal speech. If these conditions can be demonstrated to be true, then even a highly intelligent and economically successful adult may exhibit the undertones of poor speech if they have been raised in a disadvantaged home. Even the finest education will encounter difficulty in removing the impact that environmental deficiencies have on early development.

The error would be in thinking that "class" of necessity intimates "ability"; that's classist. But it is patently false to deny that education, and even intelligence, have been shown to correlate to class. That still doesn't prove causation.

I'm assuming when you talk about strong accents you are referring to slang, mispronunciations, improper grammar, etc.

	Originally Posted by Vogue To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Frankly I'm still mildly concerned that he thinks I'm a bad person because I asked a question that was insulting?

If your friend is so quick to make a determination about your character based on this sort of remark, why would you care?

	Originally Posted by Vogue To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Does this happen often to other INTJ's? I know it does to me and I'm curious whether our curiosity might work against us in some cases.

Yes, this has happened to me. You can't reason with willfully ignorant people. These are people who are too afraid or preoccupied to ask questions that have difficult answers. I'm very fond of asking controversial questions of people which I know agree with my own view. Then when they attempt their easy answer I take the other side and tear their opinions apart. Some get pissed and brand me based on their "perception" of what I "think". Others are more honest, and admit that controversial issues are rarely so black and white. A rare few actually dedicate themselves to finding the answers.

	Originally Posted by Vogue To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Did you ever make comments (based on observation) that you find very innocent, but someone takes offense to?

Almost daily, but I know long before I speak who is going to be offended.

	Originally Posted by Vogue To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Do you realize why they took offense after the fact, or do you still not "get it?"

The majority of people are still terrified by what they don't know. Unfortunately, few care enough to put forth the effort to learn.

	Originally Posted by Vogue To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Do you think your comments were actually offensive or just misinterpreted?

This depends on your perspective. I can say that people who rationally dissect an argument will not be offended. However, I am fully aware that the majority of people out there are so blinded by stereotypes, social norms, and political correctness that they will decidedly misinterpret what I say. Should I not ask difficult questions then because they make people uncomfortable? *shrug*

	Originally Posted by stock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The best part of INTJs is that you guys tend to say EXACTLY what you mean. There is no guesswork, no need to assume motive or intent, no assumptions. Once we get past the blunt nature of the communication, this is one reason ENFPs adore you guys so much.

True, but our bluntness is usually selfishly motivated. I don't like having to explain what I was "implying"; it's just easier to make it quite clear. Sadly, many are so unused to this that they either think I'm joking or cleverly masking something in my forwardness.
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[GouldFan]

	Originally Posted by Vogue To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Does this happen often to other INTJ's?

I'm not sure if it's an INTJ thing (how about ADD impulsivity?), but it happens to me occasionally, probably more often than I'd like to.

	Did you ever make comments (based on observation) that you find very innocent, but someone takes offense to?

Yes.

	Do you realize why they took offense after the fact, or do you still not "get it?"

I find out fairly quickly that my question/comment might have been insensitive or inappropriate (and why) from looking at people's reactions.

	Do you think your comments were actually offensive or just misinterpreted?

Probably both?
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[DrEvil]

I can relate to this, somewhat for myself, but more for other INTJs I know. Some are very direct, and ask intelligent, pertinent, and piercing questions. The problem is that some people just don't like having to face certain things, or answer certain questions.

BTW, the French Sociologist/Anthropologist Pierre Bourdieu wrote on the issue of accents (amonst other things). He called the phenomenon Cultural Capital. I can recommend his work. It sounds like you asked a very intelligent question.


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[Booko]

	Originally Posted by Vogue To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Does this happen often to other INTJ's? I know it does to me and I'm curious whether our curiosity might work against us in some cases.

It happens with less frequency now, because I've gotten a lot of practice in learning when to shut up (IRL anyway).

	Did you ever make comments (based on observation) that you find very innocent, but someone takes offense to?

Sure, but whether an observation is considered "innocent" is also a judgement that differs from one culture to the next.

	Do you realize why they took offense after the fact, or do you still not "get it?"

If it's a person's personality involved, yes, I often do.

The cultural things are different though. For example, in parts of the U.S. it's normal to greet a new person by shaking their hand and asking them what they do for a living. In other places, normal is that a question like that is rude.

If a person from a somewhat (or very) different cultural background isn't kind enough to clue me in that some sorts of questions are offensive, it's difficult to know what just happened.

Oddly, I have better luck with someone cluing me in if they're from a culture far different from mine. Well, maybe not oddly at all.

If it's a subculture in the U.S. sometimes people just assume we all understand the same things when we don't. Like some people don't understand that when I ask what they do for a living, I am not prying into their personal business, looking for an opportunity to use them, or trying to figure out whether we have the same socioeconomic status. For me, it's just a question on the level of "how are you enjoying the nice weather this week?"

Unfortunately, it seems a lot of Americans work from the assumption that we're just one big happy similar culture here, and that sure isn't true.

	Do you think your comments were actually offensive or just misinterpreted?

It's a mix of both. I don't usually intend questions to be offensive, but if I don't understand the culture I'm dealing with, I might be doing something offensive anyway.

[Bluesea]

Yes this happens to me. Mostly when people interpret what I am saying incorrectly. It does stress me if this is a constant experience with another and leads to that feeling that a person just does not get you, or you both come from different planets kind of thing. Initially though, and as it happens every now and then, I just explain what I meant at the time, to assist the process of mutual understanding. That too can get misconstrued with some people / situations. If it happens too consistently with another I lose interest in gaining understanding as feel the motivation to have understanding is low in the other for specific reasons. I guess it could depend on whether we have inadvertently pushed a button, hit on an issue that a person has sensitivity around / their existing perceptions of us before we even open our mouths?

I often think what is it about the way I have said it that has led to this reaction though as I would like to change that to increase understanding. Stock's comment about bluntness was interesting as maybe that is where the slight annoyance comes from when someone reacts out of context to what we mean, as we feel we've said exactly what we mean, so why interpret it or assume something else?

People have filters though. Their own consciousness can't help but make sense of it based on their own experiences / cues they recognise that have personal meanings. I think the degree these things match where you are coming from is the degree to which you are understood by another. The level of difference between people can lead to the potential for misunderstanding between them as they have few points of reference to comprehend what you are saying. Also ego's get involved with reactions.

I thought your question was sociologically and psychologically interesting. And would be interested in an analysis of this phenomena in terms of perceived identity / identity creation, group and intergroup pressures and norming, and do not see it as offensive as there are many dialects and accents within cultures and it is interesting to explore how they came about and why they are maintained.

[floramacivor]

Does this happen often to other INTJ's? I know it does to me and I'm curious whether our curiosity might work against us in some cases. It has happened to me - enough that it's one reason I consider myself socially inept.

Did you ever make comments (based on observation) that you find very innocent, but someone takes offense to? Yes.

Do you realize why they took offense after the fact, or do you still not "get it?" I sort of get it - I get that there are certain questions that are none of my business and are considered impolite to ask, although I still don't understand the rationale behind why.

Do you think your comments were actually offensive or just misinterpreted? I'm pretty sure they were actually offensive - things you're "not supposed to ask."

Sometimes I've read things in advice columns - "Dear Abby, why do people ask me why my hair is blue? It's so annoying, and none of their business?" and realize that I've asked that very question. So sometimes I've learned what's acceptable that way, after years of doing/saying the wrong thing. I imagine lots of people have had the opportunity to practice showing grace and patience when dealing with me, although I don't know which times those were, so, unfortunately, I can't learn from the experience and I'm sure I'll do it again.

[Toad]

Does this happen often to other INTJ's? I know it does to me and I'm curious whether our curiosity might work against us in some cases.
Yes, a lot.

Did you ever make comments (based on observation) that you find very innocent, but someone takes offense to?
Yes, but this usually happens more so on social networking sites like Facebook or the internet. I remember I once stated to someone, who had just posted punk rock lyrics as his facebook status, that I found it slightly ironic he was a conservative Catholic. It turns out he is very personal about comments like that, and since I am very impersonal, I failed to see how it could offend him until it already had.

Do you realize why they took offense after the fact, or do you still not "get it?"
I can see why they may have taken offense, but I never feel like it warrants offense. I am generally a lot more open to things that could be deemed offensive than they are.

Do you think your comments were actually offensive or just misinterpreted?
They were probably slightly offensive, but not enough to actually care, and then misinterpreted to be pure insults.

[Jonathan Brewer]

One of my INTJ Facebook friends has this in there profile bio:

"What would normally offend other people doesn't offend me. However, other things that wouldn't offend other people do offend me."

[IotaNull]

"How old are you" addressed to a female in contexts where the information is actually relevant and important. :@

[floramacivor]

	Originally Posted by Jonathan Brewer To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	"What would normally offend other people doesn't offend me. However, other things that wouldn't offend other people do offend me."

It's difficult to know what to do with that. I guess you just assume that something you say will probably offend them, but not the thing you think will - and you just take your chances.

[rara avis]

I have found that the safest of the safe, when it comes to interpersonal questions or observations, is to avoid indicating that you notice that people are different from each other in any way at all. As if I can't tell that your hair is curly and mine is straight, or that you have that accent and I have this, or that you have freckles and he doesn't, or that you seem to prefer Math over English.

Most sane people won't go ballistic over any of these things, but there are always little pitfalls in people's psyches- or in their impressions of you- which you can't reliably predict. None of the things above is inherently positive or negative, but you never know about people's internal context and sensitivity about the things that set them apart. That is, until you know a person or group well enough to have some inkling of their concept of themselves, or to rely on your ability to smooth things over with them.

The subject you raised with your friend can be a sensitive one, I suppose especially to people who are alert to injustices in society- or to people who haven't developed a confidence that your way of seeing the world is reliably just.

The fragment I would pick out as maybe too close to the hot button is your choice of the word "intelligent" instead of the somewhat more superfluous "cultured", or a word that helps imply your own disdain for the idea, such as "white bread" or "homogenized".

It's a tricky matter, assessing what certain people may extrapolate beyond the face value of your words.

[floramacivor]

	Originally Posted by rara avis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I have found that the safest of the safe, when it comes to interpersonal questions or observations, is to avoid indicating that you notice that people are different from each other in any way at all.

Thank you; I'll try to keep this always in the back of my mind as a rule to live by. Better safe than sorry.

[Vogue]

I'm certainly glad I'm not the only one. I wonder if other types tend to have this same problem? At least to the same noticeable degree. We've all made faux paus, but is it consistent or 'once in a blue moon' for other types?

I often feel like with me I say the wrong things a lot just because I'm being honest. I don't aim for mean, when I'm honest it's honest. "No, you shouldn't buy that dress it doesn't look good on you."

	Originally Posted by rara avis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I have found that the safest of the safe, when it comes to interpersonal questions or observations, is to avoid indicating that you notice that people are different from each other in any way at all.

This is an interesting point. It's a shame though that for the sake of some 'good' we're forced to ignore that people are different- whether it's for good or bad it's irrelevant. Although I do see where this is coming from, most people don't like to hear that they're different (and I'm assuming by extension don't want other people to be called 'different too?).

[fokalina]

	Originally Posted by Vogue To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Does this happen often to other INTJ's? I know it does to me and I'm curious whether our curiosity might work against us in some cases.

Yes.
Actually the best example of my curiosity working against me was in school classes. I'm was quiet, shy even, but I'd ask questions if they seemed pertinent. This behavior was considered odd, as were some of my questions.
In my opinion, the oddest thing was my classmates' perception of me/my questions as I moved from high school to college. In high school, I was an inadvertent class clown. Sometimes my questions were...well, laughable. But in college, I was "intelligent" and "studious" (even though my questioning had not changed o.O).

	Did you ever make comments (based on observation) that you find very innocent, but someone takes offense to?

Oh definitely. Comments, even compliments.

	Do you realize why they took offense after the fact, or do you still not "get it?"

Sometimes I know immediately after I said something that I should not have said it. There may have been nothing 'wrong' with it, but I should have known it could sound flippant/inappropriate/derogatory/etc.
Sometimes I figure out what happened some time after the actual happening. Someone may tell me, or I may just "realize" my mistake and/or their misunderstanding.
And sometimes, I just don't "get it." I may 'know' what offended them, but I can't comprehend how they received the offense.

	Do you think your comments were actually offensive or just misinterpreted?

Well, sometimes I'm "actually offensive." I rarely try to be (even when fighting, which I rarely do), but I'm too INTJ detached and objective about some things. So I'll tell the truth or speak my mind without considering the consequences. But other times, things are just misinterpreted...especially my compliments. (For instance, a few years ago I told one of my girl friends that I was impressed with how much she'd eaten. I meant exactly what I'd said: she'd impressed me. And I thought: she's fortunate she can eat so much and remain slender. But that's not how she took it. She interpreted it as: she thinks I'm a pig.
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)

[rara avis]

	Originally Posted by Vogue To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This is an interesting point. It's a shame though that for the sake of some 'good' we're forced to ignore that people are different- whether it's for good or bad it's irrelevant. Although I do see where this is coming from, most people don't like to hear that they're different (and I'm assuming by extension don't want other people to be called 'different too?).

I use this rule of thumb only at first- with business acquaintances, for instance- until I can draw a better bead on someone's personality. Hopefully after being around someone a bit, you get a better idea of what they take pride in, and what they could potentially be sensitive about. But it's especially useful when it comes to things like race, the sensitivity around which can easily exceed my expectations in a big way.

It is really repressive, and can even be counterproductive. But it's "safe", when you're uncertain.

I'm sensitive about the fact that I have freckles. It makes me uncomfortable when people point them out- although presumably, they aren't mentioning it because they think it's a bad thing- it's one of my least favorite things about my appearance, and I don't like to be reminded that people are noticing. This is a mild and small-scale example, not all that profound, and I'm not inclined to take offense over it or get upset and hold it against you, of course- but it's an example of an observation which a lot of people wouldn't anticipate could elicit negative feelings in me at all.

And on the other hand, most of the "different" things about me are things that I like or take pride in- and if you spend much time around me, you'll probably come to see that pretty easily, too.

It's just a rule that buys you peaceful time to lay good groundwork before it's appropriate get any more personal.

[Sawa Hinuyo]

...
I'd say freckles are awesome! (Saying it in sotto voce so as to not being ridiculed, though)

[emw1981]

questions just like this fall out of my mouth all the time. this is my idea of 'chit-chat'!! i enjoy the exchange of essentially 'useless' information that has potential use (ie: learning something new or having the excitement of debate) i'd much rather discuss something 'racey', something that insights debate and the utilization of your brain rather than discussing paris hilton's latest drug charge, that is unless we're discussing possible reasons of WHY she may or may not have a drug problem and we're trying to consider how her brain works. maybe you get the point? yes, i do find this to be an INTJ trait. i also find it to be an ADD trait. and i also find it to be an aspie trait. i happen to be all 3. so in the event i offend someone by something i think is a simple question (that the combination of my lack of social skills, the ADD that comes out like word vomit with inproper timing, and my intj's need for data) i simply utilize my traits as an excuse and laugh it off. im an intjaddaspie. sorry. you dont like me? cool, i probably dont like you either. this isnt to say that i am not working on guarding what falls out of my mouth, and who is around when it falls out...

[Slowandeasy1]

Originally Posted by Vogue To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

So my questions are: 1. Does this happen often to other INTJ's? I know it does to me and I'm curious whether our curiosity might work against us in some cases. 2. Did you ever make comments (based on observation) that you find very innocent, but someone takes offense to? 3. Do you realize why they took offense after the fact, or do you still not "get it?" 4. Do you think your comments were actually offensive or just misinterpreted?

1. Absolutely, all the time. I have made the observation that I ask a lot of questions, generally of a technical or inquisitive nature. Most others just seem to make statements.

I have also observed that many other's communication style is much different than mine. They are generally less direct, more linear, more sensory, more concrete (vocabulary) and take for ever to a. give directions, b. explain abstract ideas.

2. All the time. What is of interest to me seems mundane to others, and what is of interest to them is often too juvenile to me. ie I do not do small talk well - why waste my breath on the obvious.

3. Not before I got into the MBTI. I found David Keirsey's book, Please Understand Me II dealt effectively with the MBTI differences in communication styles

4. Just mis-interpreted. I do not have the sensitivity of the Feeling Function and often overstep a Feeling Types boundaries. I come off as rude, crude and moody to them and they come off as overly sensitive, self absorbed and full of hyperbole to me. Peter Myer's book, Gifts Differing enlightened me and made the reframing of my point of view easier.

---------- Post added 10-24-2010 at 10:23 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by rara avis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I have found that the safest of the safe, when it comes to interpersonal questions or observations, is to avoid indicating that you notice that people are different from each other in any way at all.

I agree that during some interpersonal questions or observations, especially with distant acquaintances, more time should be spent on similarities. However, dealing with closer relationship issues requires an exploration of common interests and differences. For me, it is the complimentary differences that make a relationship enduring.

Do we have a difference of opinion?
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[rara avis]

Originally Posted by Slowandeasy1 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I agree that during some interpersonal questions or observations, especially with distant acquaintances, more time should be spent on similarities. However, dealing with closer relationship issues requires an exploration of common interests and differences. For me, it is the complimentary differences that make a relationship enduring. Do we have a difference of opinion? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

No, not at all; see post 17 above.
Once you understand each other well enough, just about any observation may be fair game, depending on how reliable your sense of the other person is- and depending on how well they know you, your motivations, intent, and context.

And of course, it all depends on how strongly you value keeping the peace to begin with- one may not care about stepping on toes to begin with, and figure f*** em if they can't handle frank conversation. Omelettes, broken eggs, etc. Just saying, it can be a useful rule of thumb.

[Booko]

	Originally Posted by Iota Null To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	"How old are you" addressed to a female in contexts where the information is actually relevant and important. :@

Yes, like when I'm working as a poll manager. We have to use the date of birth to ensure we don't get the wrong "Jane Smith" sometimes, and the info is required by law on the Voter's Certificate.

We're instructed that when someone resists filling it out, we go find it on the elector's list anyway and write it in ourselves. Usually I have my clerks wait until after they've given the voter card and the voter isn't looking to fill it in. I have a couple of elderly voters who can get a little snarky about it, and part of my job is to avoid unnecessary conflict.

It's really crazy not to just write it in on the certificate. We check ID now and it's on there anyway. Do they think we won't notice? Or what..that we'll announce it to everyone?

[MikeC]

The right question for you would be:

Why are you offended when he called out his social observation of calling you a classist, even if in jest? He played it right by reciprocating your game, i.e. stating the obvious.

[Vogue]

	Originally Posted by MikeC To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The right question for you would be: Why are you offended when he called out his social observation of calling you a classist, even if in jest? He played it right by reciprocating your game, i.e. stating the obvious.

Possibly because I don't think I did anything that could be construed as classist? One sentence isn't really enough to be 'stating the obvious.' If I had made multiple 'classist' comments possibly, but not one.

[MikeC]

	Originally Posted by Vogue To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Possibly because I don't think I did anything that could be construed as classist? One sentence isn't really enough to be 'stating the obvious.' If I had made multiple 'classist' comments possibly, but not one.

Actually, all it takes is the misuse of one word for people to make a general opinion of you.

If you were as observant as you think you are, then you would have realised the choice of string of words that would ruffle feathers, no?

---------- Post added 10-25-2010 at 11:08 AM ----------

It would be construed as innocent if you are speaking with an accent or patois yourself. Since you are not, people may simply mistake you for 'talking down' on people that do not meet your standards and requirements.

If I were in your position, I'd brace myself for a scathing retort such as, "so how much do you make a year?".