[SeaCzar]

Let's see here........

Groups of Muslims fly two planes into the World Trade Centre, killing thousands. Another group of Muslims flies an aeroplane into the Pentagon, killing hundreds. Another group of Muslims attempts to fly a plane into the Capitol, is over powered by (offended) Americans, flying the plane into the ground in PA, killing all aboard. Another Muslim attempts to ignite a bomb in his shoe over the Atlantic, and is over powered by (offended) Americans. Another Muslim attempts to blow a plane out of the sky on final approach to Detroit.

How on Earth could anyone be nervous or worried when flying with Muslims?!? Its quite beyond me.

[JTG]

I think the point is that a public figure shouldn't be using their position to spread fear

[themuzicman]

	Originally Posted by JTG To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think the point is that a public figure shouldn't be using their position to spread fear

So, should we fire Obama when he raises the threat level to Orange? That's using his position to spread fear....

[JTG]

That is a retarded argument. There's a vast difference between a president, who has privileged knowledge of potential terror threats, passing a warning on to the people, and a radio personality saying he crosses the street when he sees a black guy coming. If Obama was to say "spiders scare the piss out of me" then that would be an equally useless statement. Irrational fears are not the same as informed warnings

[Booko]

	Originally Posted by SeaCzar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	How on Earth could anyone be nervous or worried when flying with Muslims?!? Its quite beyond me.

Well, exactly. If I were on a plane and knew there were people who'd spent a lot of time in Yemen, you think I wouldn't be a bit wary?

Be honest people: Tell me you wouldn't be just a tad more wary in a case like this than you would with, say, folks from China or Tahiti.

The big problem is a lot of Americans know very little about Muslims and think that anyone who looks a little brownish is a "dangerous Arab." Yeah, 'cause Arabs are all Muslims and all Muslims approve of terrorism. Ugh.

But that's a situation that can be solved with education. I've never found shouting people down does much to resolve unfounded fears, though. It just drives them underground. That's no solution.

Tell me, all you who think what Juan Williams said was so awful: Was I a bigot because back in the 60s I would try to avoid walking down streets where the neighborhoods were largely black and I was unknown to anyone?

Or was I just being a realist, knowing that racial tensions were high and black people would naturally assume I might have some interest in harassing and oppressing them, and maybe it would be smart if I just avoid potential trouble?

If blacks avoided me (which they did), where they being bigots too? Or were they just being careful, knowing the odds were not slim that a white person might abuse them, and since they didn't know me, I might be someone like that, so why take a chance on your safety?

Even today, if I speak to a black woman my age and she doesn't speak back, is she being a bigot? Or has she just heard stupid crap from stupid white women 20 times already today and is just over it and not willing to risk I might be stupid white woman #21?

I don't call that bigotry. I call it being human. We can learn to get over stuff like that.

[themuzicman]

Originally Posted by JTG To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

That is a retarded argument. There's a vast difference between a president, who has privileged knowledge of potential terror threats, passing a warning on to the people, and a radio personality saying he crosses the street when he sees a black guy coming. If Obama was to say "spiders scare the piss out of me" then that would be an equally useless statement. Irrational fears are not the same as informed warnings

Oh, so this is coming from your personal opinion about what's "valid" and what's "invalid".

Didn't realize that someone appointed you arbiter of all that.

[Booko]

	Originally Posted by JTG To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think the point is that a public figure shouldn't be using their position to spread fear

It's your conclusion he was spreading fear. I don't assume that. I took it for an honest and sincere expression of something a lot of Americans feel.

If I'm missing some evidence that Juan Williams meant to spread fear, I'd appreciate anyone willing to 'splain that to me.

[Warrior]

	Originally Posted by Booko To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I wish CNN would take him on and ditch Parker Spitzer. Why they think that show is going to attract more viewers just beats me.

That's a good idea. I'd certainly be more likely to tune in to see Juan than Parker and Spitzer.

[Booko]

	Originally Posted by JTG To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	and a radio personality saying he crosses the street when he sees a black guy coming.

Today a comment like that would be a problem, because times have changed and we're not having riots and lynchings.

There was a time when crossing the street because you saw a black guy coming could be a highly rational act. And the same is true if you were a black guy and saw a white guy coming. Yay...race riots. Lynchings. Fun times.
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And no one involved could be assumed to be a bigot just because they avoided someone of another race in a situation like that. It might just be they weren't naive and didn't like taking unnecessary chances.

---------- Post added 10-21-2010 at 03:28 PM ----------

OK here's what else Juan Williams said on O'Reilly's show:

	Williams also warned O'Reilly against blaming all Muslims for "extremists," saying Christians shouldn't be blamed for Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh.

That's off the NPR site...
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.

So again, someone please explain how Williams was "spreading fear." Seems to me like he was warning O'Reilly against doing exactly that.

Yeah, well, let's not bother with finding any context before having a knee jerk reaction. *sigh*

[JTG]

Originally Posted by Booko To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Today a comment like that would be a problem, because times have changed and we're not having riots and lynchings. There was a time when crossing the street because you saw a black guy coming could be a highly rational act. And the same is true if you were a black guy and saw a white guy coming. Yay...race riots. Lynchings. Fun times. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm not saying it's necessarily bad to cross the street if you feel intimidated, or to feel nervous if you're on a plane with some suspicious looking characters (whether in your opinion that includes Muslims or not) but to use a public platform to legitimize such speech is pretty blah, in my opinion. I'm not saying we should just ignore all fears and pretend there are no divides in society, but what does a radio personality accomplish by saying "i get nervous when i see a man wearing a kufi on a plane" other than either drawing support or fire?

[Ray9]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's pretty offensive. And unnecessary. I mean, speaking of islamophobia.. This is literally that. And like you listen to NPR, muzic. You are not invested in this whatsoever and just want an excuse to rag on a "liberal" news outlet.

It's downright scary. Thought police, speech police and the iron hand of ridgid, lockstep ideological intolerance. Juan Williams was not fired for comments about Muslims, he was fired for not genuflecting intensly enough to the liberal left in recent years. Williams made the mistake of placing personal and professional credibility over partisan political hackery. He simply could not bring himself to stoop to the salivating, blind loyalty of the likes of Keith Olberman, Chris Mathews and Rachel Madow. He defended the left but only half-heartedly and he made too many concessions to common sense. They've wanted him gone for a long time.

[reb]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What? Basically, anyone saying they are offended is a bully. It doesn't matter what the cause of the offense is; if you express it, you are a bully. This is what you are saying. It is ridiculous.

a bully??? no, no, Zib. that's a complete misnomer. they're a pussy, not a bully.

my response to 'i'm offended!'?

'here's a tissue for your issue'

this country is so great....people can go round saying they're offended, and some people give a shit and look all sad with 'em, instead of beating them, stoning them or killing them. in some other countries, you say 'i'm offended!' and act like it's a big deal, they clap you in a jail with large rodents loose, or cut something off. at best, you take the 'i'm offended!' attitude just south of our border...try it. see what you get if you are not a paying guest with servants.

anyone who is offended should be glad their pitiful sad sack ass can be offended and unmolested.

i find the firing of Juan Williams offensive as hell. i would like to see npr shut down over their political correctness. we don't need such ass kissing in this country. i'm sick of it, and i'm more sick of paying for it.

[Booko]

Originally Posted by JTG To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm not saying it's necessarily bad to cross the street if you feel intimidated, or to feel nervous if you're on a plane with some suspicious looking characters (whether in your opinion that includes Muslims or not) but to use a public platform to legitimize such speech is pretty blah, in my opinion. I'm not saying we should just ignore all fears and pretend there are no divides in society, but what does a radio personality accomplish by saying "i get nervous when i see a man wearing a kufi on a plane" other than either drawing support or fire?

Look at everything he said and see if that's what Williams was actually doing. It certainly doesn't sound that way to me.

What does a radio personality accomplish by admitting to what most Americans probably feel about the subject?* That becomes clearer if one listens to everything he said afterwards.

*I am not one of the people who fear flying with someone who looks obviously Muslim. My calculation is that anyone who really intended to do some hard would not be stupid enough to telegraph being a Muslim. Unfortunately, it happens all the time that people's fears make no sense when examined in terms of statistics. I do not fear terrorism generally, as I don't live in NYC or LA. What I fear is driving on I-285.

[Danisty]

Originally Posted by Warrior To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Unfortunately, yes, that is what it has mostly become. It used to be that when someone said they were offended, you paid attention. It was not a charged thrown around lightly. You could have a discussion with them about the issue, appologize or come to some other resolution, and move on. Now it is just a way to attack, threaten, or get back at someone. Claiming to be offended, or just threatening that you might be offended, has become the acdeptable method of enforcing censorship of opinions.

I've seen this happen a lot. All it does is cause people to just walk away and not bother having these kinds of conversations. It also causes me not to trust people who claim to be offended. Now I have to decipher if they really are (and if there's any point in trying to work things out) or if they're just trying to ruin something.

Originally Posted by JTG To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm not saying it's necessarily bad to cross the street if you feel intimidated, or to feel nervous if you're on a plane with some suspicious looking characters (whether in your opinion that includes Muslims or not) but to use a public platform to legitimize such speech is pretty blah, in my opinion. I'm not saying we should just ignore all fears and pretend there are no divides in society, but what does a radio personality accomplish by saying "i get nervous when i see a man wearing a kufi on a plane" other than either drawing support or fire?

He connects with the public. Once he's made that connection with people, he has a better chance of educating them. It's far better, in my opinion, than acting like he's perfect. I don't know about everyone else here, but I don't relate to "perfect" people nor do I believe they're perfect. When I see people with no obvious character flaws, I just assume they're hiding them.

[Megalomania]

Almost as bad as Don Imus being fired for calling some women basketball players "nappy headed hoes". Helen Thomas also got forced out of her job for saying the "Jews should get the Hell out of Palestine." If you ask me people need to get over their desire for political correctness and grow a pair. Everyone is afraid to say anything anymore because they worry about offending some group of people's feelings. I would wager that a good bit of the American populace identifies with Juan Williams's statement.

[Eridal]

My opinion on this is that he has the right to his opinion if he believes that Muslims on an airplane are something to worry about that's his right. This doesn't mean I agree with him because I don't as I tend to see individuals rather than groups. And while I will use group assumptions on occasion it is never my sole determination when judging whether someone is a threat or not.

I also believe that NPR was well within their rights to fire him for the same reason. It is their policy that such comments are inappropriate for one of their writers and they have every right to not publish material by someone who does not adhere to their principles. Also doesn't mean I agree with their principles just with their rights to determine who works for them within the confines of the law.

[Vogue]

Originally Posted by Booko To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The big problem is a lot of Americans know very little about Muslims and think that anyone who looks a little brownish is a "dangerous Arab." Yeah, 'cause Arabs are all Muslims and all Muslims approve of terrorism. Ugh. But that's a situation that can be solved with education. I've never found shouting people down does much to resolve unfounded fears, though. It just drives them underground. That's no solution.

Education isn't something that Williams was doing. He was saying he feared a particular group because of a /stereotype./ He, to my knowledge, did NOTHING to help educate people about extremists vs. your everyday Muslims. He was reinforcing the American ideal of a 'dangerous arab.'

Sure, you might know that there are Jewish Arabs and Muslim Indians. Sure, you might know that not everyone is a radical muslim out to destroy America, but there are Americans who don't. Frankly Juan Williams' comment was only contributing to increased suspicion when we should be trying to mollify it.

The way to get rid of racial/religious suspicion is to stop acting on it (or at least not acknowledge it in this manner.) Yeah this is easier said than done, and I'm not saying don't use common sense. If I'm about to get on a plane and I see someone trying to make a make-shift bomb, or generally looking suspicious I'm going to tell someone about it. If I'm walking in a bad area I'm going to use common sense.

Still, if we all run away when we see someone walking down the street don't you think that breeds racial tension and suspicion?

If America keeps up with this "Muslims are evil and terrorists" thing don't you think we're only fueling the fire? Islamaphobia has the potential to turn everyday Muslims into 'western-world' haters. Your radicals will always be your radicals, but we don't need to create radicals.

[ischuldt]

Originally Posted by Megalomania To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Almost as bad as Don Imus being fired for calling some women basketball players "nappy headed hoes". Helen Thomas also got forced out of her job for saying the "Jews should get the Hell out of Palestine." If you ask me people need to get over their desire for political correctness and grow a pair. Everyone is afraid to say anything anymore because they worry about offending some group of people's feelings. I would wager that a good bit of the American populace identifies with Juan Williams's statement.

This comparison is ridiculous.

Don Imus insulted a bunch of college girls and said they looked like hoes. Helen Thomas expressed a very obviously biased and angry political position.

Williams simply stated a fact that he can't help but get a little nervous when he sees a bunch of guys who look like guys who want to take down airplanes on airplanes. This is a feeling that I don't care how PC you are you can't help but feeling a little bit when you see someone like that in that situation.

He then went on to defend muslims against O'Reilly and talk about how regardless of how we may feel instinctively, we as Americans shouldn't treat them any differently. That's not a biased position at all. It's a statement of fact, and he's right.

[Arkeph]

	Originally Posted by Booko To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yeah, well, let's not bother with finding any context before having a knee jerk reaction. *sigh*

He was defending O'Reilly's statements on The View. Both of them made sure to add in the caveat that not all muslims are extremists or terrorists, but after making flimsy generalizations about muslims to justify being afraid of them. If caveats were enough to mitigate their initial statements, one could say "Not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslim" without fear of reprisal.

Of course, bigotry is a matter of degree, but justifying the fear one has for members of another race or religion with flimsy generalizations is clearly worse than justifying it with facts or admitting its irrationality.

Caveats help, but it's hard to put much weight in them. Even the worst bigots acknowledge that there are "some good ones" among the group they hate.

Even so, I wouldn't say Juan Williams is a bigot. Like Rick Sanchez, he said some bigoted things, and that's all there is to it. I agree that it isn't fair to label them as bigots.

	Originally Posted by Vogue To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Still, if we all run away when we see someone walking down the street don't you think that breeds racial tension and suspicion?

Without a doubt, though what happens today is typically a bit more subtle than that--avoiding interaction rather than actively displaying fear.

[JTG]

	Originally Posted by Megalomania To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Almost as bad as Don Imus being fired for calling some women basketball players "nappy headed hoes".

No, not even close. Imus, even if he was joking, made some comments that were in very poor taste. That's just an outright violation of broadcast standards. I don't think Williams was espousing a bigoted worldview, i just think he was careless in his description of some things. I think O'Reilly is closer to that since, as others have pointed out, he was being corrected by Williams, who clarified that not all Muslims are terrorists. The fact that Bill-O has to be reminded of this so regularly kind of disturbs me.

Given some of the other things Williams is quoted as saying during the piece, i don't think he was necessarily being a bigot. It looks to me that he was just trying to take a diplomatic approach toward O'Reilly, but i still think he should have qualified his statement about being afraid when he sees Muslims on planes. That kind of line leads to a lot of misunderstanding. It's hard for me to judge it any better than that, given the fact that the article doesn't give the full transcript in context

[IotaNull]

Originally Posted by SeaCzar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Let's see here........ Groups of Muslims fly two planes into the World Trade Centre, killing thousands. Another group of Muslims flies an aeroplane into the Pentagon, killing hundreds. Another group of Muslims attempts to fly a plane into the Capitol, is over powered by (offended) Americans, flying the plane into the ground in PA, killing all aboard. Another Muslim attempts to ignite a bomb in his shoe over the Atlantic, and is over powered by (offended) Americans. Another Muslim attempts to blow a plane out of the sky on final approach to Detroit. How on Earth could anyone be nervous or worried when flying with Muslims?!? Its quite beyond me.

Let's mix that up a little...

Originally Posted by a fictional entity

Groups of males fly two planes into the World Trade Centre, killing thousands. Another group of males flies an aeroplane into the Pentagon, killing hundreds. Another group of males attempts to fly a plane into the Capitol, is over powered by (offended) Americans, flying the plane into the ground in PA, killing all aboard. Another male attempts to ignite a bomb in his shoe over the Atlantic, and is over powered by (offended) Americans. Another male attempts to blow a plane out of the sky on final approach to Detroit. How on Earth could anyone be nervous or worried when flying with males?!? Its quite beyond me.

A being a common trait in B doesn't mean that B is a common trait in A -- by any definition of the word.

[Ray9]

Stop trying to analyze what Williams said or determine what he meant. He was fired for not moving as far to the left as NPR.


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	NPR executives had previously complained about his remarks on Fox and asked him to stop using the NPR name when he appeared on O'Reilly's show.

[INTroJect]

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Stop trying to analyze what Williams said or determine what he meant. He was fired for not moving as far to the left as NPR. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Was he using the NPR name when he was on O'reilly's show? Was that why he was fired?

[Arkeph]

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Stop trying to analyze what Williams said or determine what he meant. He was fired for not moving as far to the left as NPR.

Could you please clarify what part of the article tells you he was fired for being too right-wing in his opinions and not, as NPR claims, because he made controversial remarks? Unless I'm mistaken, there's nothing there to support your assertion.

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by themuzicman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	TBH, this is the problem with the whole discussion of race in America. If you aren't towing the strict liberal line, you're branded a racist and become an outcast.

This is exactly what happened with Shirley Sherrod, and it turned out her comments had been edited and taken out of context.
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