[SJ10]

It's early morning here and I feel like I'm at a crossroads. My wife and I have been married for about 5 years and dated for about the same. Over the past 1.5-2 years I've really struggled to be engaged and it's now to the point where it seems like any effort is impossible. We're not young, both have graduate degrees, work hard, and we're both strong introverts.

Here are the main issues:

1. Baby, my wife wants one and I don't. Actually she likes the idea of family and kids but doesn't really like them or intentionally interact with kids. We were both luke warm on the idea at the beginning but now are at polar ends.

2. Career, my wife has been more successful than me at aspects of her career including money. We aren't hurting for money but I feel like less of a provider.

3. Communication. Neither one of us are great communicators. We struggle with conveying any emotion until the point of break down or blow up.

4. Time. I need my alone time and so does she but I seem to need a lot of it, and that's generally taken as not wanting to be around her. In my mind it's just time to recharge and not a personal insult.

5. Capability. This is the main issue for me. I do love my wife but my ability to effectively show it is virtually nonexistent. This creates a cycle where it's easier to retract than to
try and fail. I've felt for many years that she wants more support and acknowledgement than I'm able to provide. She isn't high maintenance but being continually engaged with someone is draining when your efforts aren't productive. I think it comes across as indifference and I feel like I'm being passively abusive.

I'm to the point where I'm not sure if I should try harder or we should be on our own. I'd rather not be single but I'm much better suited for it. I'm not sure if it's a matter of effort or natural abiltiy. I want this to work but it looks nothing like a loving, constructive relationship.

Thoughts, experience, advice?

Thanks

[themuzicman]

Originally Posted by SJ10 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It's early morning here and I feel like I'm at a crossroads. My wife and I have been married for about 5 years and dated for about the same. Over the past 1.5-2 years I've really struggled to be engaged and it's now to the point where it seems like any effort is impossible. We're not young, both have graduate degrees, work hard, and we're both strong introverts. Here are the main issues: 1. Baby, my wife wants one and I don't. Actually she likes the idea of family and kids but doesn't really like them or intentionally interact with kids. We were both luke warm on the idea at the beginning but now are at polar ends.

Luke warm means that you were open to it when you married, and that's part of the package deal with marriage. Fulfill your duty and obligation to her.

	2. Career, my wife has been more successful than me at aspects of her career including money. We aren't hurting for money but I feel like less of a provider.

Get over it. Marriage these days isn't like when all the good jobs were back breaking macho man kind of stuff. Besides, if your wife decides to have kids, there's at least a chance you'll be living on your income.

	3. Communication. Neither one of us are great communicators. We struggle with conveying any emotion until the point of break down or blow up.

So, work on it. Be intentional about communication. Set time aside for the two of you to talk. Like an hour, two times a week. Yeah, it'll be awkward and halting at first, but as you work at it, you'll get better.

	4. Time. I need my alone time and so does she but I seem to need a lot of it, and that's generally taken as not wanting to be around her. In my mind it's just time to recharge and not a personal insult.

So talk about it. See #3. I'm sure she has needs you're not meeting, as well. Establish some boundaries to get you what you need. No, she may not like it, but that's life. There will be things you don't like about what she needs, too.

5. Capability. This is the main issue for me. I do love my wife but my ability to effectively show it is virtually nonexistent. This creates a cycle where it's easier to retract than to try and fail. I've felt for many years that she wants more support and acknowledgement than I'm able to provide. She isn't high maintenance but being continually engaged with someone is draining when your efforts aren't productive. I think it comes across as indifference and I feel like I'm being passively abusive.

So suck it up and get it done. Every man is capable of showing love to his wife, if he really wants to. Seriously, this isn't going to take 8 hours out of your day. Establish some habits that show your love to your wife. She probably needs 6 to 8 meaningful, non-sexual touches every day. Thus, a kiss before going to work. And when you get home. A random hug when it's convenient for her. Snuggling before going to bed at night.

Be intentional about telling her you love her at least 4 times per day. Call her on the phone at work and tell her you're calling just because you were thinking about her. Ask her how her day is going.

This is stone simple stuff. But you gotta be intentional and habitual about doing it. These are all things you're capable of. Suck it up and get it done.

	I'm to the point where I'm not sure if I should try harder or we should be on our own. I'd rather not be single but I'm much better suited for it. I'm not sure if it's a matter of effort or natural abiltiy. I want this to work but it looks nothing like a loving, constructive relationship. Thoughts, experience, advice? Thanks

Yeah. Grow up. Stop being lazy. Suck it up. Make a real effort. Be a man.

Start making sacrifices in your life, whether it's establishing habits for the benefit of your wife or realizing that you made a commitment when you said "I do" and you'd better darn well stick to it. Marriage is about giving yourself to another person, and you don't seem to have done that, yet.

Yeah, it means doing stuff that isn't natural to your personality. Sometimes the best way to show your life is to do things that don't come naturally because it shows love to your spouse.

I would suggest getting a book called "the Five Love Languages", and read it together. Then both of you will know how to best express love to each other. Then do it. Whatever it takes.


If you think you need counseling to understand each other, then do that. But my sense is that you need to get over being selfish and understand that marriage is about "we" not "me."

[infjer]

i wouldn't throw in the towel just yet. it sounds like you know what the issues are... so step out of your comfort zone and start working on them. if the commitment you've made is worth it to you, then be a little uncomfortable for a while. it sounds to me like it's just a matter of effort.... loving, constructive relationships don't just last forever on their own. it takes work.

i think communication is key. if you could communicate your logic AND feelings (hard, i know), that would help with all of the issues you listed. or, maybe go to a marriage counselor? just my thoughts... good luck.
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[reb]

pretty much, i had the same kind of issues. i do not approve of marriage. it is a contract administered by the state.

1. i came very near having a vasectomy when i was about 24. i wish i had; woulda saved me some grief. my second wife did not want children, and i was in agreement. later i thought i did. this society does not support having children and parents actually doing anything with them regarding discipline. i don't believe any of us need children...i wonder frequently what the motivation for having children is in this world as it now exists.

2. communication....what the hell is that? generally, communication with a significant other involves negotiation; most usually, that involves them getting their way, or 'you're being dictatorial/hard headed/selfish/some judgmental term' that means 'you are not doing what i want'. who are you here to serve? try to asnwer that question from your deepest resources....'not some overly spoiled person who feels it is their right or entitlement to get their way on everything' was my answer. i learned to serve my own goals. completely liberating.

3. my experience in communicating with women who are 'close' is (and men in business)...generally, they want more emotional or financial involvement than i 'used to could give', and now would begin to offer. women want to have emotional events, and wanted me to participate. i'm not interested. whatever their issue is, i don't view it as 'mine'. no ownership.

4. time...alone time. yep. need a lot of it. don't need other issues tossed in my maelstrom by someone else whose goals are not mine.

5. capability to become engaged emotionally...do you really want to? what is the necessity of it? if someone else is going to jump off a bridge, must you also? i can't see that. if you are 'in harness' with someone, and your internal and external goals are similar....or the same....why is it so necessary to be sucked into their process as they evaluate how to reach the goals? maybe that's the basic question involved...

what are your goals and what are hers? is she aware of her physical involvement with this 'have a child' issue? can she intellectually separate the consequences from the hormonal imperative? practically, what would be the purpose of a child?

i have not commented on the income potential of each; i don't think that is something you need discuss with her. it's your issue. you must work it.

my long used process, when i am 'stuck', is to get a sheet of paper, and to make two sides....pros and cons. then i think...long, detailed, and intuitively...on each side and each item. eventually i will get it. these decisions affect your future life. don't make a quick one, and be sure you understand what it is and why you are making a decision....this may take time. don't allow someone else to influence you...as the result has to be 'all yours'.

good luck. i hope the solution is the 'best available' for you both.

[Zsych]

Counseling man. Counseling. You should've done that years ago anyway even when you didn't have serious problems. (Not being able to express your love for each other effectively or resolve problems till they blow up is already a serious problem, even if the blow-ups aren't that large)

[yoginimama]

I've been married for fourteen years, and lived with my husband for five years before that.

Based on what you've said, here's my assessment.

First, you can cut a lot of your problems down to this one:

	Originally Posted by SJ10 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	3. Communication. Neither one of us are great communicators. We struggle with conveying any emotion until the point of break down or blow up.

Two other issues you mention are DIRECTLY RELATED TO the issue of communication. I've bolded the communication hot-spots:

	Originally Posted by SJ10 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	4. Time. ...that's generally taken as not wanting to be around her.

	Originally Posted by SJ10 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	5. Capability. ...I do love my wife but my ability to effectively show it is virtually nonexistent. This creates a cycle where it's easier to retract than to try and fail. I've felt for many years that she wants more support and acknowledgement than I'm able to provide. ...I think it comes across as indifference and I feel like I'm being passively abusive.

Count up all the communication breakdowns there--including that YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW FOR SURE how much "support and acknowledgment" she wants, OR exactly how she's interpreting your passivity.

Improving your communication is Job 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. Fortunately, improving your communication is a clear objective with many paths forward. There is a LOT of help out there for people who want to improve communication in their relationships. Since you both are capable professionals, this should be straightforward for both of you--you can approach it like a challenge at work. Google is your friend; start looking for workshops/seminars in your area. I also recommend the book "WHY MARRIAGES SUCCEED OR FAIL" by John Gottman, which has a lot of very clear and specific communication strategies for couples.

I have an additional strategy to patch you through as you're implementing these steps: write memos to each other. You've explained your marital problems to us pretty succinctly here, and I bet your wife is a good written communicator as well. Start putting things in writing to each other. "Hi, honey. I want us to get this book and attend that seminar about improving our verbal communication with each other. I think it could really help us get to a better place. What do you think? Write me back." That could clear the atmosphere a bit in the short term as you begin to learn the strategies on offer from books and seminars.

Once your communication is improved, then you can begin to work on:

	Originally Posted by SJ10 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	2. Career, my wife has been more successful than me at aspects of her career including money. We aren't hurting for money but I feel like less of a provider.

Yeah, this can be a problem for a lot of guys. May I suggest the following short-term strategies? First, frame it differently. Your wife has been successful? Feel proud of yourself for landing a successful partner! Feel proud of yourself for how you have supported her and facilitated her success! (After all, at the very least, you didn't impede her.) And, given how the economy is, feel wildly lucky and grateful that you "aren't hurting for money." That's a miracle right now. Be deeply grateful and stop caring about the balance of who contributed what.

	Originally Posted by SJ10 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	1. Baby, my wife wants one and I don't. Actually she likes the idea of family and kids but doesn't really like them or intentionally interact with kids. We were both luke warm on the idea at the beginning but now are at polar ends.

Now this one is stickier. I do not recommend having a baby out of a sense of duty--not at all--and certainly not before the two of you figure out how the hell to talk to each other. Parenting is nothing BUT communicating with each other about the kid. The better, more clearly you can communicate with each other, the better your parenting experience will be. This is important.

So, if I were you two, I would agree to table this one entirely--just don't even go near it--until you feel confident of your new communication skills. THEN start to communicate with each other about your feelings over parenthood. You may well discover that you're not actually "at polar ends" at all, but just weren't--yes--communicating your positions very well.

	Originally Posted by SJ10 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm to the point where I'm not sure if I should try harder or we should be on our own.

Try harder. That effort will reveal whether you should be on your own. But right now it sounds like it is waaaaaaay too soon to give up.

[paperclip]

Relationships are about mutual growth. Looks like you two have a stalled a bit, but these are surmountable problems. I echo the ''counseling'' advice above. If you need to, write her a little letter - or print out this thread!, telling her that you want to be a better communicator and reconnect with her. You seem very fair and level headed...you are at a major advantage in that neither of you are the aggressor or victim... yet. Sounds like you need to start taking some emotional risks, and pushing yourself to express your thoughts. Constant maintenance helps avoid bigger problems. Good luck.

[karenann33]

I've been married for 19 years to another introvert. You can so make this work you will just have to make the effort. I've been through EVERYTHING on your list and here is how I dealt with it.

	1. Baby, my wife wants one and I don't. Actually she likes the idea of family and kids but doesn't really like them or intentionally interact with kids. We were both luke warm on the idea at the beginning but now are at polar ends.

In my case my husband wanted kids and I didn't. I hated kids honestly and thought I'd be a horrible mother (however do your research - INTJ's make the best parents). Finally I caved and prayed that I would NOT get pregnant (this after I put it off for as long as humanly possible - we'd been married for 9 years at that point and I was 33 years old). At age 34 I gave birth to my son. After a rocky start (I don't really "get" babies) I fell into motherhood like it was something I was born to do (sorry to sound cliche). I ended up liking it so much that I went on to have 2 more kids. Insane I know but I love my little herd of kids.

So have an open mind. You might actually like it.

	2. Career, my wife has been more successful than me at aspects of her career including money. We aren't hurting for money but I feel like less of a provider.

When our son was born I made TWICE what my husband made. Twice. Talk about an ego blow to my husband (I did not see this until years later). When our son was 3, and my middle daughter was 1 I decided to quit my job to sah. At that point we lost 63% of our total income and overnight my husband became the sole provider. I thought he's be stressed but to my surprise he rose to the occasion and shined. 7 years later and he now easily out earns me even if I did go back to work. He's been promoted several times.

Bottom line this problem worked itself out.

3. Communication. Neither one of us are great communicators. We struggle with conveying any emotion until the point of break down or blow up. 4. Time. I need my alone time and so does she but I seem to need a lot of it, and that's generally taken as not wanting to be around her. In my mind it's just time to recharge and not a personal insult. 5. Capability. This is the main issue for me. I do love my wife but my ability to effectively show it is virtually nonexistent. This creates a cycle where it's easier to retract than to try and fail. I've felt for many years that she wants more support and acknowledgement than I'm able to provide. She isn't high maintenance but being continually engaged with someone is draining when your efforts aren't productive. I think it comes across as indifference and I feel like I'm being passively abusive.

These last three. Counseling, counseling, counseling. We hit the 7 year mark of our marriage and had the same issues. I've yet to meet a happily married couple that hasn't gone to marriage counseling. With you both being introverts you will be highly successful in counseling and will be back on track in no time.

[Muse]

-Disclaimer, my criticism on this is served cold because i think your in too deep to be pulling the "i just can't connect" stuff.

Honestly, sounds to me like your being really lazy, and maybe even selfish depending on what exactly your doing in your massive amounts of free time.

I think it comes down to two choices; based on a couple of very simple variables.

If you dont love her then leave.
If you love her but don't want to man up and actually have a real marriage; then leave.

If you love her and you want to change yourself to make things work; then stay.

Honestly MBTI type isnt a justification for social or emotional deficiencies, its just an easy way to explain why a person may have a natural affinity to those deficiencies(aka why a person would suck at it). You could sit back and say "Well hey thats just the way i am", but then again anyone that sucks at anything could use that cop out too, and they'd still suck at it.

Of course it doesn't look like a loving and constructive relationship, because your pulling the ship down with you! You cant expect to sit in your computer chair and magically fulfill your wifes social and emotional needs at the same time. And if you feel thats not your job, then you should have never been in a relationship to begin with, let alone marriage.

I have a feeling theres more to this than your saying. maybe a problem with some sort of obsession, and looking for an easy fix. I don't see how you could get married and not realize that you basically suck at it. If your wife was a bitch and your just disconected from her to avoid her negativity, then ya i could see how you got from point A to point B. But it sounds like thats not the case.

[IcNjThJ]

SJ10... I feel for you and I can relate to you, somewhat, even though I was only engaged. I really hope the best for you so, here's my advice (very long):

- If you really want to stay with and work this out then I would consider getting "The Introvert Advantage" by Marti Laney Olsen. The book actually has a section that gives advice to innie-innie couples which could really help you. Tell her how you feel WITHOUT asking for her permission, just sit her down and do it.

Now for more advice....

- I get the feeling that there aren't really any problems BETWEEN the both of you in your relationship it's just you feeling less manly (especially given #2) and I suspect some resentment due to this. It's natural in most men but, the feeling almost needs to be suppressed given their situation. May I care to ask, considering your graduate degrees, if she is a prof and you a postdoc? This is just a guess but, please correct me if i'm wrong. So the matter here is how to elicit a positive response from all of the negative feelings you're feeling. This is tough.

- In regards to statement 1, I can identify with you. My ex-fiance wanted a baby for some reason and I didn't want one. This is sticky but, I'm going to give you the REAL reason she wants one -> It's to tie you down. Trust me. My ex didn't give a crap about kids either but, somehow wanted one. You have a kid with her you're stuck. More likely as well given everything, you will have to take care of them. Are you prepared for that? I definitely wasn't and am very glad I don't have to worry about that for a long time now. It's quite liberating really. In this situation, hold it off as long as you can and make sure to wear a condom when you have sex from now on (if you don't already). Having a family is great and all but, you need to look out for #1 as well. Hold off ALAP (as long as possible). DO NOT GIVE IN.

- For #2 I really don't know what to tell you. At least tell her how you feel about it and get that off your chest. In this case bust your balls to be more successful. Women will tell you to be proud of her, which is fine, but they neglect your true feelings and true happiness throughout the relationship. Don't tell her and this will fester...

- For #3 You are who you are

- For #4 Do you feel you're not giving her enough attention? Does she tell you you're not giving her enough attention? If she does she's manipulating you which is unacceptable. If it's the first, I would advise you to have more sex with her (with condom of course). That will give her more attention than you could give her throughout the day without any sex and will make you feel you're giving her attention. Then you can have your plenty of alone time without feeling as bad. If she still gives you more crap she has problems...

- For #5 see #4 above. Sex (without having to ask her for it) will cure that problem. She should know you well enough by now to recognize your strengths and weaknesses. You're probably trying too hard to please her in my opinion (I felt the same way before and tried upping my PDA and touches or whatever and still felt it wasn't good enough but, I knew I wasn't being me that whole time and I hated it). You have to be yourself somewhat too. What kind of relationship is this if you can't be yourself. Really?

Now for your last statement and my actual advice. Be a man and let her go. Do it now before it's too late. I felt almost all of the same things you were feeling when I was engaged (except #2 and she was extroverted and kept complaining about not getting enough attention, I couldn't stand it). I left her and now believe that was the best thing I've ever done for my life. I know you're married but, I think god might forgive you for leaving. In the end if you're not happy how the hell can you make her happy? Really? I guess more detailed info regarding the whole dynamics would let me help you better but, that's your business. There is no need to let your feelings for someone else control your life. Take control of your life and do what you want to do. You only live it once. Why live it full of resentment?

[Warrior]

	Originally Posted by IcNjThJ To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	- In regards to statement 1, I can identify with you. My ex-fiance wanted a baby for some reason and I didn't want one. This is sticky but, I'm going to give you the REAL reason she wants one -> It's to tie you down. Trust me.

Do you really think that is the only reason and that there couldn't be any other motivation? There are many reasons people want to have children, some good, some not. There isn't enough in the original post to understand his wife's motivation for wanting children.

Based on the additional content of the post, it doesn't sound like there is enough communication going on to be sure of anything. I second the comments above about communciation be the main problem.

[karenann33]

Originally Posted by Warrior To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Do you really think that is the only reason and that there couldn't be any other motivation? There are many reasons people want to have children, some good, some not. There isn't enough in the original post to understand his wife's motivation for wanting children. Based on the additional content of the post, it doesn't sound like there is enough communication going on to be sure of anything. I second the comments above about communciation be the main problem.

In my case it was my husband who wanted kids so he was trying to tie me down? Wonder if that works in reverse? I honestly think he just wanted a family, the experience, the whole thing. I get it now. I do say do NOT bring children into this until you work this out. We did counseling BEFORE we had kids. I even said to him numerous time "speak now or forever hold your peace" before we tried to have a baby because I knew that then we'd be connected as parents forever and I didn't want him deciding after the fact that he didn't love me anymore. At that point it became forever for me, no turning back.

[mindstate]

	Originally Posted by themuzicman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Luke warm means that you were open to it when you married, and that's part of the package deal with marriage. Fulfill your duty and obligation to her.

You have no obligation to give her children. If you don't want them and she can't respect that, that is her problem, not yours. The fact that you aren't getting along well and she wants kids is a major red flag. Get out while you still can, she might get pregnant without your consent. Not fair to you, or the kid, and puts you at greater risk for a much messier divorce than you are already headed toward.

	Originally Posted by themuzicman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yeah. Grow up. Stop being lazy. Suck it up. Make a real effort. Be a man.

Decide what you want, and go for it. Again, you have no obligation to stay in a relationship you are miserable in.

	Originally Posted by reb To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	pretty much, i had the same kind of issues. i do not approve of marriage. it is a contract administered by the state.

Indeed, a failed institution which has very little to do with love between two people. You are in great danger of being taken advantage of by this woman, do what you need to do man, but don't waist your time being married to this woman if you aren't happy. Life is too short. Good luck.

[T4LUS]

Originally Posted by karenann33 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Originally Posted by SJ10 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. 1. Baby, my wife wants one and I don't. Actually she likes the idea of family and kids but doesn't really like them or intentionally interact with kids. We were both luke warm on the idea at the beginning but now are at polar ends. In my case my husband wanted kids and I didn't. I hated kids honestly and thought I'd be a horrible mother (however do your research - INTJ's make the best parents). Finally I caved and prayed that I would NOT get pregnant (this after I put it off for as long as humanly possible - we'd been married for 9 years at that point and I was 33 years old). At age 34 I gave birth to my son. After a rocky start (I don't really "get" babies) I fell into motherhood like it was something I was born to do (sorry to sound cliche). I ended up liking it so much that I went on to have 2 more kids. Insane I know but I love my little herd of kids. So have an open mind. You might actually like it.

I wouldn't do the baby thing until you work out your problems. I disagree with the whole tying down you thing as her sole cause. She might be subconciously thinking that it would be the answer to the communication issues you are facing in the marriage. Just because it worked for someone else is no assurance that it will work out for you, just that the possibility exists. So come back to it later when you sort out the 3, 4, 5.

	Originally Posted by karenann33 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	2. Career, my wife has been more successful than me at aspects of her career including money. We aren't hurting for money but I feel like less of a provider.

This is really a personal ego issue, and nothing with your marriage. Don't forget there are other ways a husband can provide to his wife. Money isn't the only thing. If I'm crying and hurt, what I want more than anything is a supportive spouse, not more money. So count and work on other ways you meet her needs besides financial.

Originally Posted by karenann33 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Originally Posted by SJ10 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. 3. Communication. Neither one of us are great communicators. We struggle with conveying any emotion until the point of break down or blow up. 4. Time. I need my alone time and so does she but I seem to need a lot of it, and that's generally taken as not wanting to be around her. In my mind it's just time to recharge and not a personal insult. 5. Capability. This is the main issue for me. I do love my wife but my ability to effectively show it is virtually nonexistent. This creates a cycle where it's easier to retract than to try and fail. I've felt for many years that she wants more support and acknowledgement than I'm able to provide. She isn't high maintenance but being continually engaged with someone is draining when your efforts aren't productive. I think it comes across as indifference and I feel like I'm being passively abusive. These last three. Counseling, counseling, counseling. We hit the 7 year mark of our marriage and had the same issues. I've yet to meet a happily married couple that hasn't gone to marriage counseling. With you both being introverts you will be highly successful in counseling and will be back on track in no time.

Counselling can help be the interperter between the two of you to establish communication. You might need the help of one to get past 3. I found in an old relationship of mine, we kept repeating the same lines over and over in each argument. Obviously we were both not getting our point to the other person and kept feeling unheard, to the point that I started raising my voice as a natural reaction of feeling unheard but volume wasn't the problem.

Is really that you need that time alone right now or because it's hard to deal with the communication going on that being alone is simply easier? As you've already said, it's a misunderstanding between the two of you that's causing this.

Procrastination and avoidance is always easier. I'm sure your career require work as well and it would have been easier to not try and not fail, but you didn't choose that. So why should you choose that for your marriage? As an INTJ, I can understand her always trying... because she's trying to actually resolve the issues in the marriage, which is better than not at all. She may read into you not responding as not trying to make the marriage work, which may add further frustration. If you know what you're lacking, you should try to improve. The other person does not expect perfection, but expects efforts and that shows them that you care about them. Try asking her what she would like for you to do.

A good exercise from the 5 Love Languages was that each person to write a list of say 20 things that the other person could do to show love. It isn't a list of demands, but a list of requests and ideas.

	Originally Posted by SJ10 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm to the point where I'm not sure if I should try harder or we should be on our own. I'd rather not be single but I'm much better suited for it. I'm not sure if it's a matter of effort or natural abiltiy. I want this to work but it looks nothing like a loving, constructive relationship.

I think it sounds like that being single is easier for you at this moment than necessarily suited for singleness.

I am happy that you've been able to identify your problems so clearly at least. You've taken the biggest step in finding a resolution.

[JulietCapulet]

I know my opinion doesn't count for much but I just think it's good to consider all these things before marriage.

[infjer]

Originally Posted by IcNjThJ To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

SJ10... I feel for you and I can relate to you, somewhat, even though I was only engaged. I really hope the best for you so, here's my advice (very long): - If you really want to stay with and work this out then I would consider getting "The Introvert Advantage" by Marti Laney Olsen. The book actually has a section that gives advice to innie-innie couples which could really help you. Tell her how you feel WITHOUT asking for her permission, just sit her down and do it. Now for more advice.... - I get the feeling that there aren't really any problems BETWEEN the both of you in your relationship it's just you feeling less manly (especially given #2) and I suspect some resentment due to this. It's natural in most men but, the feeling almost needs to be suppressed given their situation. May I care to ask, considering your graduate degrees, if she is a prof and you a postdoc? This is just a guess but, please correct me if i'm wrong. So the matter here is how to elicit a positive response from all of the negative feelings you're feeling. This is tough. - In regards to statement 1, I can identify with you. My ex-fiance wanted a baby for some reason and I didn't want one. This is sticky but, I'm going to give you the REAL reason she wants one -> It's to tie you down. Trust me. My ex didn't give a crap about kids either but, somehow wanted one. You have a kid with her you're stuck. More likely as well given everything, you will have to take care of them. Are you prepared for that? I definitely wasn't and am very glad I don't have to worry about that for a long time now. It's quite liberating really. In this situation, hold it off as long as you can and make sure to wear a condom when you have sex from now on (if you don't already). Having a family is great and all but, you need to look out for #1 as well. Hold off ALAP (as long as possible). DO NOT GIVE IN. - For #2 I really don't know what to tell you. At least tell her how you feel about it and get that off your chest. In this case bust your balls to be more successful. Women will tell you to be proud of her, which is fine, but they neglect your true feelings and true happiness throughout the relationship. Don't tell her and this will fester... - For #3 You are who you are - For #4 Do you feel you're not giving her enough attention? Does she tell you you're not giving her enough attention? If she does she's manipulating you which is unacceptable. If it's the first, I would advise you to have more sex with her (with condom of course). That will give her more attention than you could give her throughout the day without any sex and will make you feel you're giving her attention. Then you can have your plenty of alone time without feeling as bad. If she still gives you more crap she has problems... - For #5 see #4 above. Sex (without having to ask her for it) will cure that problem. She should know you well enough by now to recognize your strengths and weaknesses. You're probably trying too hard to please her in my opinion (I felt the same way before and tried upping my PDA and touches or whatever and still felt it wasn't good enough but, I knew I wasn't being me that whole time and I hated it). You have to be yourself somewhat too. What kind of relationship is this if you can't be yourself. Really? Now for your last statement and my actual advice. Be a man and let her go. Do it now before it's too late. I felt almost all of the same things you were feeling when I was engaged (except #2 and she was extroverted and kept complaining about not getting enough attention, I couldn't stand it). I left her and now believe that was the best thing I've ever done for my life. I know you're married but, I think god might forgive you for leaving. In the end if you're not happy how the hell can you make her happy? Really? I guess more detailed info regarding the whole dynamics would let me help you better but, that's your business. There is no need to let your feelings for someone else control your life. Take control of your life and do what you want to do. You only live it once. Why live it full of resentment?

WOW... really? This is a pretty immature, selfish answer. Her telling him she doesn't think he's giving her enough attention is her trying to communicate that she's unhappy, not manipulate him. She might get pissy, but that's bound to happen in a marriage. I'm sure he has his moments as well. And all this advice on having sex... I have no idea where you're getting that information, but it doesn't fix everything. What if their sex life is just fine or she's the one asking for it more often?

Bottom line is what Muse said: If you love her and you want to take the effort to make things work; then stay. If you don't love her or want to man up, then leave.

[larrysb]

Try some professional help with a marriage and family therapist. Be ready to try a few different ones until you find one that seems to get you.

It's worth working on a marriage before tossing in the towel.

[infjer]

	Originally Posted by mindstate To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Decide what you want, and go for it. Again, you have no obligation to stay in a relationship you are miserable in.

I don't agree with staying miserable... but what part of getting married isn't at least some sort of an obligation? I'd say getting a divorce would be the absolute last resort.

[mindstate]

	Originally Posted by infjer To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't agree with staying miserable... but what part of getting married isn't at least some sort of an obligation? I'd say getting a divorce would be the absolute last resort.

Marriage does not entail obligation to remain in an unhappy relationship, ergo divorce.

[infjer]

	Originally Posted by mindstate To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Marriage does not entail obligation to remain in an unhappy relationship, ergo divorce.

But it does entail making an effort... not just giving up without a fight. that's all i'm saying.

[themuzicman]

	Originally Posted by mindstate To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Marriage does not entail obligation to remain in an unhappy relationship, ergo divorce.

Divorce doesn't end the marriage. It just re-arranges the financial and living arrangements.

[SJ10]

Thank you all for taking the time to respond. A lot to reflect on but I think counseling is in order.

[mindstate]

	Originally Posted by themuzicman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Divorce doesn't end the marriage. It just re-arranges the financial and living arrangements.

By what tortured logic have you reached this conclusion, please enlighten me.

[IcNjThJ]

INFJer - So it's ok for the wife to get pissy and act petulant to her respectful husband asking for more attention? That is not one bit manipulative but, just her expressing her feelings in a calm and collected manner right? Now you are excusing immature behavior.

[BobG]

	Originally Posted by themuzicman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Divorce doesn't end the marriage. It just re-arranges the financial and living arrangements.

If he divorces before there's any kids involved, it really does end the marriage. If he has kids, then the relationship is permanent until the kids are grown.

There's no way he should be having kids until he's fairly certain items 3, 4, and 5 can be resolved. They should be resolvable, but it's just reckless until he's certain.

I pretty much agreed with your other points (and yoginimama and others).

If whether to have children or not were the only issue, I'd agree about reconsidering and being a little more open to the idea. It's just not appropriate for situations where the person titles his post "Knowing when to throw in the towel (marriage)."