[elizabeth lover]

here are some FACTS.

--in the past 20 years approximately 1 million species have disappeared
from the world's tropical forests.

--from 1960-1985 over 40% of the Central American rainforests were
destroyed to create grazing land for cattle.

--the United States imports over 100,000 tons of beef from Central America
each year.

--it takes 23 gallons of water to produce a pound of tomatoes, it takes
5,214 gallons of water to produce a pound of beef.

--one acre of land can produce 20,000 pounds of potatoes. one acre of land
can produce 165 pounds of beef.

--the U.S. cattle industry produces 158 million tons of waste per year.

--livestock production is the #1 cause of water pollution in the U.S.

--22 million acres of land have become unusable due to desertification.

--85% of the topsoil loss in the U.S. is the result of livestock production.

--in the U.S. 33% of ALL raw material consumption is used solely in the
production of meat, egg, and dairy products.

--it takes 1 pound of grain to make 1 pound of bread.

--it takes 20 pounds of grain to make 1 pound of beef.

--75% of the grain sent to 3rd world nations goes to livestock production.

--the countries with the highest in animal products are also the countries
with the highest rates of cancer, heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis,
etc. 50 percent of men who eat meat regularly die of heart disease.

--4 percent of men who eat no animal products die of heart disease.

--80% of USDA chicken inspectors no longer eat chicken.

--if the average commuter passenger load in the U.S. were increased by just
1 person per day we would save 33 million gallons of gas each day.
Americans spend over 1 billion hours stuck in traffic each year.

--30% of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions come from cars.

--air is sold in Mexico city for $1.15 a minute by sidewalk vendors.

--what Greenpeace spends in a year general motors spends in 4 hours.

--3.5 million children under the age of 6 suffer from lead poisoning.

--in Europe 50% of the cars still use leaded gas.

--2 million gallons of motor oil are dumped in American waterways each year.

--over 8 million tons of oil are spilled into the world's oceans every year.

--5 billion gallons of water are flushed each day in the united states

--sewage treatment facilities in the U.S. discharge 5.9 trillion gallons of
sewage wastewater into coastal waters every year.

--U.S. tuna fishermen are permitted to kill over 20,000 dolphins every year.

--2 million sharks die in driftnets in the north pacific every year.

--only 1 in 10 baby chimpanzees survive the trip from the jungle to the zoo.

--1 billion animals are killed each year in experiments.

--17 million animals are trapped in the U.S. each year for fur.

--many traps are so painful that animals chew through their own limbs to
escape.

--for every fur animal trapped two other animals (dogs, cats, deer, etc.)
are trapped and killed.

--in 1987 450,000 minks died on fur farms from heat exhaustion. 1 ton of
recycled paper saves 17 trees, 7,000 gallons of water, & enough energy to
heat the average home for 6 months.

--six times more jobs are created by recycling as opposed to landfill
operations.

--the amount of money spent on trash disposal in American schools is equal
to that spent on new textbooks.

--out of every $10 that Americans spend on food, $1 pays for packaging.

--65% of garbage in the U.S. is packaging.

--50% of all trash thrown away could be recycled into new products.

--500 new dumps are built each year in the united states.

--over 1 billion trees are used to make disposable diapers every year.

--Americans throw away 20 billion disposable diapers each year.

--Americans dump the equivalent of 21 million shopping bags full of food
into landfills every year.

--2.5 billion batteries are thrown away each year by Americans.

--over 700,000 tons of hazardous waste is produced in the U.S. every day.

--Americans throw away 10 million cigarette lighters every week.

--500,000 people die of cigarette related diseases in the U.S. each year.

--pesticides that are banned in the U.S. (such as ddt) are regularly sold
to third world countries.

--90% of all food borne pesticides are found in meat and dairy products.

--10% of nursing mothers who were vegetarians had ddt in their breast milk.

--90% of nursing mothers who were meat eaters had ddt in their breast milk.

--in 1945, before widespread pesticides were use, U.S. corn growers lost 3%
of their crops to insects, last year they lost over 12%.

--74 different kinds of pesticides have been found in drinking water.

--over 100 chemical contaminants have been found in the breast milk of
nursing mothers in the U.S.

--of the 34 chemicals most widely used on lawns, 25% are widely believed to
cause birth defects, genetic mutation, and cancer.

--Americans spend 6 billion dollars on their lawns each year.

--25% of U.S. nuclear reactors would not be able to contain a core breach
meltdown.

--a 1985 study predicted a 45% chance of core breach meltdown in the U.S.
before 2005. in 1992, 430,000 people in the world died from cancers
resulting from nuclear testing radiation.

--more money is spent in the U.S. on nuclear weaponry in one year than was
spent on housing from 1980-1992.

--to date, cleaning up storage facilities for nuclear debris has cost
taxpayers 200 billion dollars.

--in 1989 the U.S. military used 200 billion barrels of oil, enough to keep
all American public transit systems running for 22 years.

--1 ton of toxic waste is produced by the U.S. military every minute.

[Warrior]

Originally Posted by elizabeth lover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

here are some FACTS. --in the past 20 years approximately 1 million species have disappeared from the world's tropical forests. --from 1960-1985 over 40% of the Central American rainforests were destroyed to create grazing land for cattle. --the United States imports over 100,000 tons of beef from Central America each year. --it takes 23 gallons of water to produce a pound of tomatoes, it takes 5,214 gallons of water to produce a pound of beef. --one acre of land can produce 20,000 pounds of potatoes. one acre of land can produce 165 pounds of beef. --the U.S. cattle industry produces 158 million tons of waste per year. --livestock production is the #1 cause of water pollution in the U.S. --22 million acres of land have become unusable due to desertification. --85% of the topsoil loss in the U.S. is the result of livestock production. --in the U.S. 33% of ALL raw material consumption is used solely in the production of meat, egg, and dairy products. --it takes 1 pound of grain to make 1 pound of bread. --it takes 20 pounds of grain to make 1 pound of beef. --75% of the grain sent to 3rd world nations goes to livestock production. --the countries with the highest in animal products are also the countries with the highest rates of cancer, heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, etc. 50 percent of men who eat meat regularly die of heart disease. --4 percent of men who eat no animal products die of heart disease. --80% of USDA chicken inspectors no longer eat chicken.

Some of this might be relevant to the discussion of eating meat or not, but what does any of the rest of the list have to do with it?

[Erika]

Originally Posted by elizabeth lover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I am a vegetarian for ethical, health and environmental reasons. when u remove your bias and accept the science you will be able to see that everything is wrong with eating and mass producing animals. it was a needed part of evolution, but we have evolved past the need for it, and now it's just gluttony- killing us, our animal cousins and the planet. and I will tell anyone who will listen. my first concern is the planet and the animals, and then my health.

Exactly. Agree with all of this. And any proud meet eater - please, just once, try to kill your own food, and face the death of another living being, see that it also desires to live, it feels pain and despair, just like a human being, feel that you end the life of something you could never recreate yourself. And think that all this is only because "it is tasty", and only because you are too (spoiled? ingorant?) to eat anything else. If you can really look in the eye to the animal you are about to kill and eat... well there would be naturally much more vegetarians than there are now. But when we can simply go to supermarket and pick up "meat" or go to a restaurant and eat our "stakes" we simply close our eyes and minds as where it all comes from, and what does it actually mean.

[Kmal]

Originally Posted by Erika To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Exactly. Agree with all of this. And any proud meet eater - please, just once, try to kill your own food, and face the death of another living being, see that it also desires to live, it feels pain and despair, just like a human being, feel that you end the life of something you could never recreate yourself. And think that all this is only because "it is tasty", and only because you are too (spoiled? ingorant?) to eat anything else. If you can really look in the eye to the animal you are about to kill and eat... well there would be naturally much more vegetarians than there are now. But when we can simply go to supermarket and pick up "meat" or go to a restaurant and eat our "stakes" we simply close our eyes and minds as where it all comes from, and what does it actually mean.

i love hunting. it's never bothered me to kill a deer, or squirrel. dont know how someone could be too ignorant to eat something other than meat.

[storm eyes]

I don't like to label myself as a vegan/vegetarian but it really is more often my preferred choice. I just got so bored over the years of people trying to pull me down over it. Also I like to try new things, sometimes that involves meat. Do I eat McDonalds? I would rather eat carpet tile than most fast foods. Vivisection is something I have been interested in for years, so that kind of falls over into my eating habits and lifestyle choices. I could not drink a glass of milk, it just smells like cow to me.. and I am not particularly partial to the aroma of cow, so why would I want to put it in my body?

I think Paul McCartney said it best *If slaughter houses had glass windows we would all be vegetarians*

[Warrior]

Originally Posted by Erika To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Exactly. Agree with all of this. And any proud meet eater - please, just once, try to kill your own food, and face the death of another living being, see that it also desires to live, it feels pain and despair, just like a human being, feel that you end the life of something you could never recreate yourself. And think that all this is only because "it is tasty", and only because you are too (spoiled? ingorant?) to eat anything else. If you can really look in the eye to the animal you are about to kill and eat... well there would be naturally much more vegetarians than there are now. But when we can simply go to supermarket and pick up "meat" or go to a restaurant and eat our "stakes" we simply close our eyes and minds as where it all comes from, and what does it actually mean.

I grew up on a farm. I've killed chickens, hogs, cows, deer, and rabbits for food. I doubt you have killed more animals than I have. Doing so did give me an appreciation for where food comes from, but it certainly did not make me want to become a vegetarian.

[elizabeth lover]

this may sound CrAzY, but i feel animals have a right to life.

if we weren't at the top of the food chain, some stonger animal would be slaughtering us without any regard for our life.

but i have always felt that a person should kill an animal if they want to eat it, so they can respect what it means.

[Dover]

I was vegetarian for around two years and tried being vegan, but that only lasted around six months. I monitored my diet very closely to make sure it was balanced. I ended up having problems with protein and iron deficiency, nothing horrible, but I lacked a lot of energy.

Eventually I came to the conclusion that it isn't really worth all the effort to not eat meat and animal products, especially when they are so pervasive in food. I realized a lot of the foods I ate had animal products indirectly in them, so I ditched my veggie diet.

But, I wouldn't ever tell a vegan or vegetarian not to eat that way. But, a lot of people do it the wrong way for the wrong reasons. If you want to eat only lettuce for a month to lose ten pounds, suffer the health consequences. However, if you really believe in animal rights and want to reduce you environmental footprint while improving your health, all the power to you!

[SOFTero]

When Bruce Friedrich came to our campus, he raised some interesting points:

Calorie for calorie, meat requires

20x the fuel, 14x the water, 25x the land

than a vegetarian lifestyle.

It's approximately the equivalent of 20 calories in, 1 calorie out.

This argument doesn't hold true for hunted animals, which exist normally, but it definitely shows the inefficiency of mass breeding cows/chickens/pigs.

Also interesting, and would be supported, I think, by Peter Singer's arguments on bioethics (we can't discriminate based on species and we must respect a person's desire to live or die):

Pigs and chickens are more intelligent than a three year old child.

Edit:

Also, if I remember correctly, the meat industry contributes more to greenhouse gas emissions than all forms of transportation (planes, semi trucks, trains, cars, etc.) combined.

[elizabeth lover]

Originally Posted by SOFTero To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

When Bruce Friedrich came to our campus, he raised some interesting points: Calorie for calorie, meat requires 20x the fuel, 14x the water, 25x the land than a vegetarian lifestyle. It's approximately the equivalent of 20 calories in, 1 calorie out. This argument doesn't hold true for hunted animals, which exist normally, but it definitely shows the inefficiency of mass breeding cows/chickens/pigs. Also interesting, and would be supported, I think, by Peter Singer's arguments on bioethics (we can't discriminate based on species and we must respect a person's desire to live or die): Pigs and chickens are more intelligent than a three year old child. Edit: Also, if I remember correctly, the meat industry contributes more to greenhouse gas emissions than all forms of transportation (planes, semi trucks, trains, cars, etc.) combined.

yes, mass producing animals is killing our planet.

[zibber]

	Originally Posted by Warrior To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I grew up on a farm. I've killed chickens, hogs, cows, deer, and rabbits for food. I doubt you have killed more animals than I have. Doing so did give me an appreciation for where food comes from, but it certainly did not make me want to become a vegetarian.

Nice. Did the animals stand in their own shit in very small spaces under fluorescent light tubes, drink sick milkshakes of growth hormones and antibiotics, to get them nice and beefy and fight all the diseases caused by their complete lack of an immune system, then get mass slaughtered without any respect?

OH WAIT, it wasn't a factory farm. Never mind.

ps. I'd wager that about 0,1% of the people who eat meat grew up on a farm. They eat the remains of miserable animals who led gruesome lives, then feed the left-overs to their cherished pet dog.

[Warrior]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Nice. Did the animals stand in their own shit in very small spaces under fluorescent light tubes, drink sick milkshakes of growth hormones and antibiotics, to get them nice and beefy and fight all the diseases caused by their complete lack of an immune system, then get mass slaughtered without any respect? OH WAIT, it wasn't a factory farm. Never mind.

I've worked/slaughtered in both and neither fit that description.

[elizabeth lover]

	Originally Posted by Warrior To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've worked/slaughtered in both and neither fit that description.

let's not deny what factory farming is. please.

disgusting.

[Warrior]

	Originally Posted by elizabeth lover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	let's not deny what factory farming is. please. disgusting.

I'm not denying what it is. I'm also not trying to make it sound like something it isn't and I'm not trying to make the old family farm sound like utopia.

[Mikey69]

	Originally Posted by elizabeth lover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	this may sound CrAzY, but i feel animals have a right to life. if we weren't at the top of the food chain, some stonger animal would be slaughtering us without any regard for our life. but i have always felt that a person should kill an animal if they want to eat it, so they can respect what it means.

Big hug EL. I'm a hunter, I understand your last line implicitly. I find those that eat meat but have a problem with facing the animal to be morally bankrupt.

---------- Post added 09-28-2010 at 12:58 PM ----------

Originally Posted by SOFTero To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

When Bruce Friedrich came to our campus, he raised some interesting points: Calorie for calorie, meat requires 20x the fuel, 14x the water, 25x the land than a vegetarian lifestyle. It's approximately the equivalent of 20 calories in, 1 calorie out. This argument doesn't hold true for hunted animals, which exist normally, but it definitely shows the inefficiency of mass breeding cows/chickens/pigs. Also interesting, and would be supported, I think, by Peter Singer's arguments on bioethics (we can't discriminate based on species and we must respect a person's desire to live or die): Pigs and chickens are more intelligent than a three year old child. Edit: Also, if I remember correctly, the meat industry contributes more to greenhouse gas emissions than all forms of transportation (planes, semi trucks, trains, cars, etc.) combined.

Hunting harvests meat while maintaining a greater lever of biodiversity than veggie farming.

[SOFTero]

	Originally Posted by Mikey69 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Hunting harvests meat while maintaining a greater lever of biodiversity than veggie farming.

Hunting won't feed the 7 billion people on our planet. Like I said, the arguments don't apply to hunting, but we can't exactly mass hunt. Hence, the vegetarian diet.

[Mikey69]

	Originally Posted by SOFTero To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Hunting won't feed the 7 billion people on our planet. Like I said, the arguments don't apply to hunting, but we can't exactly mass hunt. Hence, the vegetarian diet.

Agreed, however my stance is that hunting is ethical and a way of reducing environmental harm. We arent trying to eliminate all petroleum use either, just reduce it.

[yoginimama]

	Originally Posted by elizabeth lover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	meat is completely unnecessary

I really wish I could agree with you there, but I can't. I was a vegetarian for eight years. I wanted to be a vegan so, so badly. I still fantasize that I could live and thrive and get through the day and keep working towards Pincha Mayurasana--


To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


--without meat and/or dairy and eggs. Unfortunately, that is just not true for me. I need to eat meat. I'm an ectomorph; it's very hard for me to gain muscle and (this is key) my digestive tract is half the length of an endomorph's and about 20-25% shorter than a mesomorph's.

Endomorphs should avoid meat because it can literally rot in their lengthy digestive tracts.

But ectomorphs need it because, in their bodies, food travels such a relatively short distance between the stomach and the trash compactor. They need to get major bang for their nutritional buck--every nutrient needs to be maximally available. Anything that takes any kind of time to break down will end up nourishing the ectomorph's plumbing instead of the ectomorph.

When it comes to nutrition--like everything else--one size does NOT fit all. Some people are better off meat-free. Some people, and I'm one, really need it.

[iamhuman]

I don't know what kind of 'morph' I am, but I just became a vegetarian (eggs, dairy, and seafood .....does that = vegetarian???) at the ripe old age of 50. And I must say I feel great!

[elizabeth lover]

beans and legumes are a much better source of protein than any animal product, and they are better proteins.

---------- Post added 10-01-2010 at 04:24 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by iamhuman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't know what kind of 'morph' I am, but I just became a vegetarian (eggs, dairy, and seafood .....does that = vegetarian???) at the ripe old age of 50. And I must say I feel great!

you should cut out the seafood. the ocean is filthy.

[mountain]

I've been a vegetarian for 15+ years. When I cook something myself, it is usually vegan (I don't cook very often, but I love vegan cookbooks.)

A vegetarian diet works well for me. My wife and son are both meatasaurs.

[MrDoom]

Originally Posted by Warrior To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

That would be me. I don't function very well without eating meat. It is nearly impossible to get 200+ grams of protein a day without meat. About the only other way to do it is to drink protein shakes all day. (I eat very, very little soy, too.) I already get about 100 grams of protein a day from them and function much better if I get the rest from real meat. I would try to get a higher percentage from real meat, but I prefer something lighter first thing in the morning and before I go to bed. However, I'm not one to make a crusade out of what I eat. If folks want to be vegetarian or vegan, that's fine. Everyone has different activity levels, body compositions, and other unique factors. Find a diet that works well for you and go with it.

I'm going to agree with Warrior. While I do generally eat less meat than average for reasons of economy, nothing bothers me more than when vegetarians pull a Godwin and equate eating meat with Nazism. It's silly and counter-productive to their own cause.

	Originally Posted by elizabeth lover
	*alleged "facts"*

Do you have any sources or citations for your so-called "facts"? Most of those are complete red herrings and don't even relate to the issue you're pushing. I think you're just making up a lot of those factoids.

[elizabeth lover]

have you ever tried a vegetarian diet at all, or even one that included enough protein?

[Kmal]

	Originally Posted by elizabeth lover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	beans and legumes are a much better source of protein than any animal product, and they are better proteins.

actually, meat is a complete protein, while legumes are missing a few amino acids. so what do you mean by "better proteins"?

[MrDoom]

	Originally Posted by elizabeth lover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	have you ever tried a vegetarian diet at all, or even one that included enough protein?

What does that even matter in relation to the point I bring up (I assume you're replying to me)? I'm criticizing militant holier-than-thou vegetarians for equating carnivorous behavior with a certain historical case of ideologically-based racial genocide, and saying that you haven't produced any hard science or other verifiable sources backing up your statistics that you may very well have just pulled out of thin air.