[RedOrange823]

Forgive the vagueness of the title, but should sectarian schools which impose religious indoctrination simultaneously with academic education be permitted? The reason I ask is because, lets face it, certain religions have a bias against certain scientific theories (ie. creationism vs. evolution, the world was created in six days, etc.), and are more than likely to pass off said scientific theories (which have been subject to rigorous study, scrutinization and peer review), as "probably not true." Do you think that this poses a disadvantage to children educated in sectarian schools rather than secular? Why or why not?

Also, being told that hell is a true, horrible, fiery, torturous place can have serious damage when subjected to a child's vivid imagination (this is fact as I had personal experience when initially told of hell). Just how much are we allowed to impose our personal un-factual (not saying untrue) beliefs on innocent young children?

Please feel free to take this topic wherever it may lead...

[yoginimama]

I do believe that scaring anyone with hellfire is at best tragic (the scarer believes it's real) and at worst abusive (the scarer is deliberately trying to frighten and control the scare-ee).

That particular act can be prohibited, however, without banning faith schools outright. Similarly with scientific theories--it can be required to acquaint faith-school students with the same facts everyone else is learning, for the sake of them being able to get decent jobs upon graduation, without shutting down the school.

I'm generally not in favor of faith schools, but this is a matter of conscience. I think faith schools are perfectly tolerable as long as (1) they're not committing abusive religious practices like scaring with hellfire (or any other types of abusive practices, obviously), (2) they're teaching real science (whatever their attitude towards it), and (3) they're not getting public funds.

[zibber]

I have trouble with them, but I also have trouble with many other methods of enculturing young human individuals and hence am reluctant to single them out.

[Amphorian]

The religious schools should stay. Also like in America all schools, private, public and homeschool, are required to at least have a certain level and set of academia taught. Yes that includes science. Many religious schools do teach science. Maybe not in the most proper manner but most students are at least exposed to the material.

Also is the schools don't produce individuals that can actually compete in the economy or in the field of choice should make the school's popularity and admissions go down. Private schools teach better (or should) in a capitalist economy.

[True Rune]

All schools are religious for the most part, at least before high school.

[Insomey]

1) Standard Curriculum
I am inclined to agree in the way that religious schools are ok as long as they follow the proper curriculum and prepare their students for post-secondary education. If one can take a step back and look at the curriculum for a religious school, the only major difference is that they have some sort of Religious Studies. Other than that, the school continues to offer courses in language, math, science, comp-sci, shop, and arts.

2) Science
This seems to be one of the main concern. However this is only one (or at max 3) courses out of the whole school system, which to me, is a rather small concern. Furthermore, I would imagine most schools are obligated to prepare their students for their A-Level/SAT/Provincial exams. Therefore, their standard teaching materials for Biology, Physics, and Chemistry cannot be THAT different from the public schools.

Yes I agree that there could be bias in terms of the "beginning of the world" theories, but in hindsight, that's only a very small part of both the elementary and secondary education. Nonetheless, students still learn about proper research skills and conduct lab work.

3) Religious Studies
I cannot speak for all religious schools, but the brimstone sulfur incineration content does not apply to the schools that I've been to. Yes, I agree that planting any kind of fear into anyone's mind is ridiculous. However from what I have been exposed during my Catholic and Christian school days were quite different. We simply had to answer questions and write ups for Religious Studies. We had the freedom to argue against what was taught... but to be honest, no one really bothered to do so since not many people wanted to spend that much focus on Religious Studies. Occasionally, we had to attend mass or chapel, but that again, wasn't too stressful for me. I mean I can still recite all the Catholic prayers, but doesn't mean that I have to believe in it. Personally, I consider my religious school days as part of my exposure. Without that experience, I probably wouldn't have bothered finding out what Catholics and Christians really believe.

4) Religious Schools in Hong Kong
When I was growing up in Asia, there were very limited public schools in the city. Heck, there's still a shortage of school in Hong Kong right now. Most of the schools in HK are founded by various religious communities such as Muslims, Catholics, Christians, and Buddhists. Without semi-private or private religious schools, most people in Hong Kong wouldn't have been able to finish the compulsory education program. There is simply not enough mobility and resources for any non-religious organizations (including the government) to establish THAT many schools in a city populated by 7,000,000 people.

5) Quality Education
It is difficult to have private but not religious schools in my opinion because most people who fund the religious school are religious. I assume that these people would be more generous when they give to religious schools because they see their "donation" as an act of strengthening and contributing to their religious community. On the other hand, public schools from where I am at the moment, is dealing with a some gong show regarding budget cut. Of course, qualified art and music teachers are the first to go. I had an oblivious gym teacher teaching us math in Gr. 11 and it was terrible. Furthermore, we're facing a lot of disgruntled teachers who are overworked and the quality of teaching is slowly decreasing. Not to bad mouth public school systems, but I had undergone a period of mostly self-taught times during my days in public schools---and I went to a good one too. Lecture time was only an average of 15-20 minutes. For the rest of the class, we did homework while the teachers were busy preparing/marking assignments from another class.

With all that said, it might sound disconcerting to agree that religious school has a place in our current society. Also, I don't consider religious indoctrination as brainwashing since we most of us have the rights and choice to disagree. Hellfire and brimstone are secondary to the proper education that one can receive.

[Undead Bonzi]

	Originally Posted by True Rune To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	All schools are religious for the most part, at least before high school.

I must have missed the religion part when I want to my public elementary school. Care to elaborate?


@ the OP. Religious schools are private institutions and thus are perfectly acceptable. As long as the graduates of these schools reach certain academic benchmarks (that are already in place) they are acceptable. It doesn't matter if you disagree with the religion or dislike the idea, your children will not be forced to go to any such institution unless you want them to. Also, outside of some areas of science many of these private schools far outperform public schools (mostly because of better funding = better teachers, better facilities and smaller class sizes).

As far as indoctrination...every kid I met in college who had gone to a private Catholic high school stopped being a Catholic because of it. It was something of a running joke with some of my friends. Indoctrination is a two edged sword.

[True Rune]

Originally Posted by Undead Bonzi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I must have missed the religion part when I want to my public elementary school. Care to elaborate? @ the OP. Religious schools are private institutions and thus are perfectly acceptable. As long as the graduates of these schools reach certain academic benchmarks (that are already in place) they are acceptable. It doesn't matter if you disagree with the religion or dislike the idea, your children will not be forced to go to any such institution unless you want them to. Also, outside of some areas of science many of these private schools far outperform public schools (mostly because of better funding = better teachers, better facilities and smaller class sizes). As far as indoctrination...every kid I met in college who had gone to a private Catholic high school stopped being a Catholic because of it. It was something of a running joke with some of my friends. Indoctrination is a two edged sword.

It's more the method of teaching than the content. I just used a bad word.

[Booko]

Originally Posted by RedOrange823 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Forgive the vagueness of the title, but should sectarian schools which impose religious indoctrination simultaneously with academic education be permitted? The reason I ask is because, lets face it, certain religions have a bias against certain scientific theories (ie. creationism vs. evolution, the world was created in six days, etc.), and are more than likely to pass off said scientific theories (which have been subject to rigorous study, scrutinization and peer review), as "probably not true." Do you think that this poses a disadvantage to children educated in sectarian schools rather than secular? Why or why not?

I'd just like to mention there are other dubious ideas besides unscientific ones. We still have "segregation academies" where I live, for example.

	Also, being told that hell is a true, horrible, fiery, torturous place can have serious damage when subjected to a child's vivid imagination (this is fact as I had personal experience when initially told of hell). Just how much are we allowed to impose our personal un-factual (not saying untrue) beliefs on innocent young children?

Religious schools don't all go there. I've never heard of a Jewish school do that, nor do the Quakers or the Episcopalians or the...yeah you get the point.

In general, I'd remark that whether kids are exposed to ideas about hell or rasicm or "evolution is bunk" they eventually go out in the real world and have to deal.

Look at the effect all that hellfire stuff had on you, RedOrange. Obviously the brainwashing didn't take. The school didn't try it on me, as I went to a public school, but the church I was raised in certainly did. And here I am, not believing in an Eternal BBQ or silly unscientific ideas.

As for imposing our personal unfactual beliefs on innocent young children, that will happen with or without religious schools. "Columbus discovered America" and the Food Pyramid are a couple of unfactual things out children are indoctrinated with daily. I could go on, the but coffee's ready, so...priorities.

We could deal with diminishing the ignorance of science in this country, for certain, but I don't see religious schools as being the main impediment. The public schools teach more kids and there isn't much opposition to unfactual ideas about scientific subjects in conversations in the public square. It's too bad Americans are isolated from the rest of the world -- if we had to deal with Europeans more our Creationists would receive the derision they deserve.

[RedOrange823]

	Originally Posted by Booko To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Look at the effect all that hellfire stuff had on you, RedOrange. Obviously the brainwashing didn't take. The school didn't try it on me, as I went to a public school, but the church I was raised in certainly did. And here I am, not believing in an Eternal BBQ or silly unscientific ideas.

I have lost a lot of friends who grew up with the same indoctrination as I did and refuse to see skepticism from my perspective. My arguments have driven them to tears as they believe I will burn in the hellfire they believe to be real for "blaspheming." Yes, I am one of the lucky ones who chose to think for myself and form my own opinion (not saying my opinion is correct here), but the vast majority of my friends raised in the same situation as I, still believe in the "brainwashing."

[Booko]

	Originally Posted by Amphorian To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The religious schools should stay. Also like in America all schools, private, public and homeschool, are required to at least have a certain level and set of academia taught. Yes that includes science. Many religious schools do teach science. Maybe not in the most proper manner but most students are at least exposed to the material.

Homeschooling has no curriculum requirements, however, homeschoolers go on to have their kids pass the GED, which has some basic content on there.

	Also is the schools don't produce individuals that can actually compete in the economy or in the field of choice should make the school's popularity and admissions go down. Private schools teach better (or should) in a capitalist economy.

No, private schools do not teach better in a capitalist economy. It depends very much on the school.

If you're ever in ATL I'll give you a list of substandard private schools you can pose as a parent and go check out. Many of the just match the substandard curriculum the public schools use (but don't have to deal with discipline problems). Some of them exist to make sure people are not faced with realities concerning religious beliefs, science or diversity.

Then there are some that are actually decent. The RCC schools around here tend to be ok to good. There's an International School that's pretty good. And if we had the cash the one school I would actually send my kid to is Padeia.

I know a great deal about what these schools are up to because our family and some of our friends are active tutoring students as a business. You get to see the fluffy crap they call "education" if you do that long enough.

---------- Post added 09-24-2010 at 12:37 PM ----------

Originally Posted by RedOrange823 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I have lost a lot of friends who grew up with the same indoctrination as I did and refuse to see skepticism from my perspective. My arguments have driven them to tears as they believe I will burn in the hellfire they believe to be real for "blaspheming." Yes, I am one of the lucky ones who chose to think for myself and form my own opinion (not saying my opinion is correct here), but the vast majority of my friends raised in the same situation as I, still believe in the "brainwashing."

Unfortunately, I can't deny having a similar experience, RedOrange. It seems like some of my fellow students couldn't break away from ideas either. Sometimes that's related to the ability to break away from one's family. And maybe it's just more likely we INTJs would do such a thing, considering our habit of tossing out rules that no longer work.

I have pretty much given up trying to convince people who believe the devil is everywhere, evolution means the Bible has no value, that everyone who doesn't think like their tiny little group is bound for Eternal BBQ, and so forth, because tilting at windmills isn't a good use of my time. If someone asks me something, I'll do my best to answer, but I don't offer much and even then it's more like a quiet question here and there.

It's possible that where you live means your experience is more extreme than mine was. Oh, I grew up in Michigan in a very religious area, but being overly concerned about everyone else's salvation was considered in poor taste. I've been living in Georgia for a quarter century now, and I find it's not at all the same here. I mean, there's nothing like having a manager you don't report to haul you into her office to have a discussion about theology or being shown Billy Graham videos at a "mandatory" staff meeting. In Michigan that would not be likely...maybe there's one kook in Grand Rapids or something, but that would be about it.

The thing is, people who come out of their "education" believing that evolution is wrong are going to be a bit limited in their career choices. They won't survive long if they like biology and have to endure college courses with the rest of us who weren't brainwashed. As long as science isn't getting infected by unscientific ideas, I can live with it.

Our politics is, unfortunately, infected by unscientific ideas, and that can only happen with a scientifically brainwashed populace. And that is a serious problem.

[Aronnax]

A private institution, in a nation that considers freedom of religion a right.... what's the problem?

[Condo]

I think the only time problems arise is when they taught to accept religious teachings and ideas over scientific facts. If that doesn't happen, then they're still teaching the children which is their purpose. Sure, completely non-biased school systems would be the prefered method, but if religious schools teaching an agreed cirriculum well enough so that the students know what they have to, I don't have so much of a problem.

[Zsych]

Its the parents choosing to be lazy about teaching their own religion themselves. I'd say its their right (currently) to make that choice.

[Warrior]

I'm not opposed to religious or other philosophical based schools. There are some good ones and some not so good ones. We had an option of several private schools within our general area to send our kids to, one of which was a school related to the church we go to. We chose not to send our kids to that one because we didn't think the level of education it provided was adequate. (We ended up sending the kids to the local public school.)

Education of children is the responsibility of the parents. Parent's should look at what their particular strengths and weaknesses are, along with the needs of the children, and make a decision on what works best for their situation. If that is a public school, supplemented by other teaching at home, great. If that is a private school of some flavor, supplemented with (probably a different type of) teaching at home, that's fine too.

[Axion004]

It isn't like the religious people are the only ones being brainwashed.

Look what happens when students go to college on television and what Freshman do when they all go into the dormitories and don't want to do homework.

I think a logical flaw in your argument is that every religious organization goes against science. Do you understand every religion? Do you understand everything that is being taught to its members? How much religions do you understand?

While I do not believe in religion I cannot honestly find any way of proving the Bible wrong. I cannot prove it right and I cannot prove it wrong.

That is probably one of the major problems.

	Oh, I grew up in Michigan in a very religious area, but being overly concerned about everyone else's salvation was considered in poor taste.

Which area of Michigan? I also live in the wonderful state of Michigan.

[Tocsin]

The elephant in the room that seems to be overlooked so far...

What do you say when you hear a Wahabi sect wants to open a madrasah nearby to educate youth about the the prophet Mohammed, the truth of Islam, and the great evil SATAN that is incarnate in the form of the United States?

Nobody is forced to send their children there, enrollment is voluntary.

Anything wrong with that?

Oh... and what if some of the upper level vocational courses include handling biohazardous materials, detonator fabrication, and high yeild explosive chemistry?

[Aronnax]

	Originally Posted by Tocsin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The elephant in the room that seems to be overlooked so far... What do you say when you hear a Wahabi sect wants to open a madrasah nearby to educate youth about the the prophet Mohammed, the truth of Islam, and the great evil SATAN that is incarnate in the form of the United States? Nobody is forced to send their children there, enrollment is voluntary. Anything wrong with that?

Nope.

	Originally Posted by Tocsin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Oh... and what if some of the upper level vocational courses include handling biohazardous materials, detonator fabrication, and high yeild explosive chemistry?

Explosive handling and fabrication is regulated by the government, they'd be shut down with the responsible parties arrested.

[plotthickens]

As long as sectarian public monies don't fund private religious, segregational, or otherwise illegal stuff, there's no problem.

[Tocsin]

	Originally Posted by Aronnax To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Explosive handling and fabrication is regulated by the government, they'd be shut down with the responsible parties arrested.

Just for the sake of argument, suppose bomb making and biological weapons were only taught "in theory" or "on paper?"

[Aronnax]

	Originally Posted by Tocsin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Just for the sake of argument, suppose bomb making and biological weapons were only taught "in theory" or "on paper?"

Even a "theoretical" bomb fabrication class is going to get a visit from ATF party vans. A sharp shooter course carries much greater legal protection, but even then, weapon stockpiles and paramilitary firearm training is watched very closely.

This is exactly how it should be: the law targets threatening actions and outright violence while allowing people to say and do what they want. Building a Madrasah that calls America the great Satan is protected speech, just like when WBC families teach the same thing to their kids when they home school.

[Zombicide]

Allowed? What are you pink? Of course they should be allowed. They should be more than allowed. Pragmatically, I actually like for the genetically stupid kids to learn those same ridiculous fairy tales that I was also taught but was never dumb enough to believe in, the indoctrination makes that demographic temperament more identifiable ... like sowing a little star of David badge onto their left lapel for me.

Freedom! I remember when statheism tried to take over in place of other religions in a little area called Russia. To think there are people who really think they have a right to disallow religious schools.

[RedOrange823]

	Originally Posted by Aronnax To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A private institution, in a nation that considers freedom of religion a right.... what's the problem?

	To think there are people who really think they have a right to disallow religious schools.

Fair enough arguments, and I guess I don't believe otherwise.

However, can educational indoctrination be done in a way that is abusive? In my personal experience and opinion, I believe the answer of this to be yes. We certainly do not allow abuse in public schools. In this instance, instead of outright abolishing the right to having religious schools, what measures should we put in place to prevent the possible abuse from happening?

[floramacivor]

	Originally Posted by RedOrange823 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	However, can educational indoctrination be done in a way that is abusive? In my personal experience and opinion, I believe the answer of this to be yes. We certainly do not allow abuse in public schools. In this instance, instead of outright abolishing the right to having religious schools, what measures should we put in place to prevent the possible abuse from happening?

First you have to define the abuse in such a way that the courts can make rulings about it. And if it's abuse for certain things to be taught in private schools, does that make it abuse for parents to teach it in the home? Generally, when there's abuse, the child is removed from the home and placed in foster care. At what point is educational indoctrination a valid reason for removing children from their homes? It gets to be a slippery slope.

[Antares]

As long as the taxpayers don't have to support those schools, then by all means.