[Indubitably]

Work from the inside out people, not from the outside in. A Prince-Albert is no more effective a replacement for sexual confidence than any other cosmetic alteration to your body. If you do this in order to compensate for a lack of something, it will merely serve as a physical manifestation of your desperation. There are some girls who like a guy that comes off a little desperate and self destructive, but the majority of women I've met, would smell it on you and run for the hills long before you got a chance to show them your prince albert in the first place.

[JustMel]

Originally Posted by Indubitably To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Work from the inside out people, not from the outside in. A Prince-Albert is no more effective a replacement for sexual confidence than any other cosmetic alteration to your body. If you do this in order to compensate for a lack of something, it will merely serve as a physical manifestation of your desperation. There are some girls who like a guy that comes off a little desperate and self destructive, but the majority of women I've met, are not such.

Who the hell said it was?

[Indubitably]

	Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Who the hell said it was?

The op did, is it really necessary for me to quote his original post? These are not the sort of things that can be fixed with piercings, or tatoos, or any other type of alteration to your body. The people for whom cosmetic alteration is a good idea, are the people for whom it is an aesthetic preference. Its the op's life, and his body to alter for what ever reasons he may wish, but if ever there was an indication that something like this was a bad idea, its the kind of reasons he listed.

[JustMel]

Originally Posted by Ntwadumela To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This 'here thread is dedicated to my sincere interest in exploring the possibility of getting a penis piercing. I have a number of reasons: to challenge myself; to conquer fear; to express myself as an individual; and liberate my repressed sexuality. However, that's neither here nor there. Does anyone have any first-hand experience with genitalia piercing? What is your opinion of genital piercings? Any tips? Recommendations?

Originally Posted by Indubitably To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The op did, is it really necessary for me to quote his original post? These are not the sort of things that can be fixed with piercings, or tatoos, or any other type of alteration to your body. The people for whom cosmetic alteration is a good idea, are the people for whom it is an aesthetic preference. Its the op's life, and his body to alter for what ever reasons he may wish, but if ever there was an indication that something like this was a bad idea, its the kind of reasons he listed.

I think you're reading more into it than what was there.

[Indubitably]

	Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think you're reading more into it than what was there.

I'm interpreting the post literally, how exactly is that reading "too much"? If you think I need to reinterpret the op's post in some sort of deeper ideological context in order to do it justice, then I will be happy to consider your argument. Which is not to say that there would necessarily be anything wrong with that position, just that I would need you to elaborate significantly before I could formulate a response of any substance. As it stands however, the op's statement has, by my reckoning, pretty well defined what it means to desire compensation for sexual confidence via alteration of one's body.

If I need to elaborate on exactly why it would mean as much, I will, but most INTJs find that level analytical deconstruction a bit pedantic (if not outright intrusive when it is their thoughts we are deconstructing).

[JustMel]

A lot of people use piercings, tattoos, sex toys, etc to build their sexual self confidence. For some it's not as easy as changing their thought processes because some people need a tangible reminder. Throwing more self help "change comes from within" is not helpful if you're dealing with someone who prefers/responds better to tangible reminders.

The physical reminder often helps with the mental conditioning. Or did you skip that lesson in psychology 101?

[Indubitably]

Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

A lot of people use piercings, tattoos, sex toys, etc to build their sexual self confidence. For some it's not as easy as changing their thought processes because some people need a tangible reminder. Throwing more self help "change comes from within" is not helpful if you're dealing with someone who prefers/responds better to tangible reminders. The physical reminder often helps with the mental conditioning. Or did you skip that lesson in psychology 101?

I can't speak to the content or veracity of your psych 101 class, for that, I suspect we will need the opinion of a psychologist, but I will say this much: I have never met someone for whom cosmetic alteration has proven an effective means of building self confidence. Perhaps such a person does indeed exist, but I think either of us would be hard pressed to effectively argue this point without conclusive data and the expertise required to effectively interpret it in the context of modern psychology.

The assertion that "change comes from within" may seem trite to you, but that does not diminish its relevance to the situation at hand. If someone came to me complaining of engine trouble I would not tell them to get a new paint job. Its not a terribly glamorous or complex response, but I certainly would consider it pertinent to the situation at hand.

Ultimately, if your argument is with my assertion that "cosmetic alteration is not an effective means of compensation for a lack of self confidence" itself, rather than the assertion that the op's post expresses a desire to compensate for a lack of confidence, then I am afraid we are at an impasse, as I must disagree on the basis that your position directly and dramatically contradicts my personal experience in its entirety.

[JustMel]

Because I deal with people with a lack of self confidence every day. I counsel them and help them learn to believe in themselves and through the course of that if they need a tangible reminder of the path they are on then by all means they should have one.

My point is that cosmetic alteration can and often is a visible reminder of the person they wish to become and while they are ultimately responsible for changing their behaviors and mindsets to become what they wish to be a physical reminder and/or ego booster is effective.

[Indubitably]

Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Because I deal with people with a lack of self confidence every day. I counsel them and help them learn to believe in themselves and through the course of that if they need a tangible reminder of the path they are on then by all means they should have one. My point is that cosmetic alteration can and often is a visible reminder of the person they wish to become and while they are ultimately responsible for changing their behaviors and mindsets to become what they wish to be a physical reminder and/or ego booster is effective.

Again, I am afraid we are simply going to have disagree on this point. I don't know what your job is, or why you council people such, only that I would most likely not. As I see it, while there is nothing wrong with helping people to change the circumstances of their life by altering their environment, it is quite another to assert that physical alteration is a healthy means of coping with a lack of self confidence.

[JustMel]

I counsel and work with battered women and children and pregnant teenagers. I know a bit about lack of self confidence. Telling someone they have to change is one thing. Admitting you need to change is another while actually changing behavior patterns is another altogether. Some people are better able to change by having a visible, tangible reminder.

Expecting a physical alteration to be able to change your confidence levels, etc is wrong and won't work but just like people have different ways of learning (visual, auditory, etc) they also have different ways of building and rebuilding self confidence, etc.

[Indubitably]

Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I counsel and work with battered women and children and pregnant teenagers. I know a bit about lack of self confidence. Telling someone they have to change is one thing. Admitting you need to change is another while actually changing behavior patterns is another altogether. Some people are better able to change by having a visible, tangible reminder. Expecting a physical alteration to be able to change your confidence levels, etc is wrong and won't work but just like people have different ways of learning (visual, auditory, etc) they also have different ways of building and rebuilding self confidence, etc.

I'm really not trying to call your character or professional competence into question here, I imagine that in your place I might have a different way of going about things, but thats not what I'm getting at . The only part of your post that I am concerned with pertains to the statement that "Expecting a physical alteration to be able to change your confidence levels, etc is wrong and won't work but just like people have different ways of learning (visual, auditory, etc) they also have different ways of building and rebuilding self confidence, etc", and at least in that excerpt, I don't really even see anything that contradicts what I've been saying.

Perhaps we have simply crossed a few wires here? I am not trying to assert that an external change is always a bad thing, just that changing your physical appearance will not fix a lack of self confidence. If a battered woman came to me and said, "my husband beats me because I'm ugly", I'm not going to tell her "well then, perhaps you should start with some botox and a breast augmentation", and from the sound of it, neither would you.

If a woman came to me and said "I had a radical mastectomy, and it was very difficult, but I have come to terms with the fact that my breast does not define my worth as a woman or a human being. Its just that I would really like to be able to go to the beach and wear a bathing suit without everyone staring or avoiding me", I might very well suggest that she look into reconstructive surgery of some sort.

[JustMel]

	Originally Posted by Indubitably To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Perhaps we have simply crossed a few wires here? I am not trying to assert that an external change is always a bad thing, just that changing your physical appearance will not fix a lack of self confidence.

No, but if it helps them rebuild/build their self confidence then there's nothing wrong with it. If looking in the mirror and seeing that physical manifestation is what helps them be able to take that bigger step then it is healthy.

	Originally Posted by Indubitably To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If a battered woman came to me and said, "my husband beats me because I'm ugly", I'm not going to tell her "well then, perhaps you should start with some botox and a breast augmentation", and from the sound of it, neither would you.

You would be correct.

Originally Posted by Indubitably To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If a woman came to me and said "I had a radical mastectomy, and it was very difficult, but I have come to terms with the fact that my breast does not define my worth as a woman or a human being. Its just that I would really like to be able to go to the beach and wear a bathing suit without everyone staring or avoiding me", I might very well suggest that she look into reconstructive surgery of some sort.

I'd say she needed psychological help that would be far beyond reconstructive surgery if she was so uncomfortable with herself and had such a sense of self loathing that the attention of others pushed her to alter her appearance with such a radical surgery. A psychologically healthy person would be able to find other ways to cope without resorting to such a thing.

[Indubitably]

I apologize for the delay, school has been a bit hectic as of late, and the fact that this thread was going to split off skipped my mind for a while there. At any rate, it seems that our primary hurdle here is indeed communication. For one thing, the statement that....

	Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No, but if it helps them rebuild/build their self confidence then there's nothing wrong with it. If looking in the mirror and seeing that physical manifestation is what helps them be able to take that bigger step then it is healthy.

... , combined with the general tone of your previous posts, leads me to believe that you are thinking in terms of a vocabulary that I am unfamiliar with. I think at some point Ntwadumela made reference to a theory that separates treatment of psychological disorders into thoughts, feelings, and behaviors, and it seemed that you were at least familiar with the theory. To be honest I don't really have much to say about the theory itself, as I am not well acquainted with it, but if I run with the assumption that you are attempting to reinterpret my assertion in terms of this theory, some of your previous posts start to become a little more clear. For one thing, you almost seem to have substituted the claim that "modifying one's behavior, or changing one's environment is necessarily a bad thing" for my initial assertion, when I am quite simply not making such a statement. The generality of my statement is not even on the same order of magnitude for that matter. If I try to force my language into this tri-chotomy of thoughts, feelings, and behaviors, I can kind of see where in a sense it might fit better into the "behavior" category than the other two, but I think ultimately I would need to completely rework the wording of the statement for it to even be considered logically compatible. (I'm not really even sure that you are trying to make this exact "substitution", it just seems like the most likely candidate. Perhaps if you elaborate a bit on your interpretation of my statement, I will be able to make better sense of where exactly the distinction in our positions lies.)

For one thing, my statement has a strong bent towards subjective evaluation, and from what little I can see of this theory, it doesn't really seem to be set up to even address the validity of such subjective evaluations. Modern psychology seems to steer clear of telling people what values or morals they should and shouldn't have in general as far as I can tell, but like I say, I am not well acquainted with the thought-feeling-behavior theory, so if this is not the case here, feel free to let me know. Perhaps more importantly though, "outside-in" simply doesn't equate to "behavior", in the way I have used it. The behavioral therapy indicated in this theory (if it can really be thought of as equating at all), would still be "inside-out", otherwise I imagine it would be something more like the therapist was using some sort of behavioral conditioning program to alter the personal values of the patient without their knowledge, rather than helping them to come to terms with their own values. Even that is a pretty tenuous comparison to make though.

	Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You would be correct.

This pretty well confirms for me that at least at a fundamental level, we are actually in agreement. If we really did disagree, you would have at the very least had to ask "why not".

	Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'd say she needed psychological help that would be far beyond reconstructive surgery if she was so uncomfortable with herself and had such a sense of self loathing that the attention of others pushed her to alter her appearance with such a radical surgery. A psychologically healthy person would be able to find other ways to cope without resorting to such a thing.

This scenario essentially presumes by design that she has already sought counseling of some sort, and more or less has a healthy opinion of her worth as a person, despite societal influences that would suggest that her worth as a woman would be compromised by the lack of a breast (hence the statement that she has "come to terms"). The distinction here is that where the woman in the previous scenario is looking for a cosmetic fix to low self esteem, this woman already has strong self esteem and is looking for a cosmetic way to alter her social functionality. Granted, I'm not claiming that society is justified in treating a woman with one breast any differently than a woman with two, only that in practice it does, and that it would be possible for an individual to desire a change in that social perception, even if they do have high self esteem.

[JustMel]

Someone choosing to have cosmetic surgery is not always a case of suffering from low self esteem or other mental issues. It is possible to dislike a part of your body and still have a healthy self esteem. Just like it's possible to dislike your accent and change it or dislike your hair color and change it or dislike certain mannerisms and change them.

I don't think changing your environment or behavior is a bad thing unless it's detrimental to their or someone else's well being and/or mental health.

Some people are never going to be happy, ever, regardless of how many changes they make to their bodies. They are seeking to fix the inside by 'fixing' the outside and that's not healthy.

I do believe that if someone is having major issues with a part of their appearance (I'm thinking of the HS girl who has a huge nose and hates it and is also picked on by others) and she has the nose job and her confidence increases and her overall demeanor is better there's no problem. It was an issue, it was corrected, problem solved. Now if they fix the nose and then it's the lip and then the breasts and then...... on and on there's an underlying psychological issue.

I'll dig out the books and find all the terminology and such when I have more time. With granddad in the hospital, neenerhead out of town, kids out of school etc I don't have time to dig now.

[Indubitably]

	Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	They are seeking to fix the inside by 'fixing' the outside and that's not healthy.

This, and essentially only this, is my point.

The rest seems more or less to be in line with my thinking, although I might get a bit more nit-picky about drawing a distinction between behavior and environment. At any rate, I've been busy myself, so I certainly see no harm in letting the discussion hang for a while, but I am none the less curious about where exactly the communication broke down, so should the fancy to look that terminology up strike, I will be happy to expound upon how it relates to my own thinking.