[Pragmatist]

Not that ZERO women are interested in chess, but in my experience the ratio of men to women in chess tournaments and such are about 10:1 or something like that.

Now sports I can understand. Men are the ones with the big egos who have to smash some other guy to prove to ourselves that our dad's were wrong and we AREN'T a loser. But why not something like chess? It's intellectual, nobody gets hurt, games don't have to take very long you can play blitz or 10 minute games... so what's the deal? Same thing with video games. Now I'm running into more and more females who are gamers, and that's exciting, but still overall the ratio is something like 10:1. I don't understand the disconnect there. Especially since it always seems like women are looking for equal proving grounds where they can show up men. Chess and video games have no gender bias as far as your potential. It seems perfect.

---------- Post added 09-11-2010 at 07:53 AM ----------

Dungeons and Dragons too..... I didn't know any girls growing up who played D&D. I'm starting to rant here so I'm going to stop, but you get the point... none of these things should outright have any disproportionate ratios, yet men seem to be the ones primarily interested.

[Ben1220]

"women are looking for equal proving grounds where they can show up men. "
They are? Maybe this is true for some with low self esteem who need to spend time doing anything compeditive simply to stroke their own ego... but for the majority, I would have thought they'd have better things to do then to be compeditive just to "prove themselves"

I often get the feeling that women are less compeditive in general than men are, or at least are compeditive about different things in general... Maybe this is why they aren't drawn to compeditive games like chess and online video games in such large numbers?

Also, social and cultural pressures probably have a role as well.

[Alrah]

I love chess and board games in general. I used to be a gymnast. I've played D&D. Video games have to have a strong strategy element to interest me. If it's just 'kill the orc and get a sore thumb!' then I'm out. :D

Traditionally - it's something that dad's didn't teach their daughters and mothers didn't know how so...

That's changing these days. Both my daughters can play chess too. And I agree with you - there's no gender inherent reason why women don't game.

With girls - if you introduce a fantasy scenario to the game it's better when they're learning. With my eldest we'd play a silly version 'Opera chess', where each move was accompanied by a dramatic parody solo. ;-)

With women - well, depends on the type of woman. It's true that a lot of women lack confidence when it comes to strategy games. You could fake a mope and hint until she volunteers to play with you. You could be direct, sit her down, diss her dad and say 'I'm gonna teach you what he shouda'. I'm sure INTJ's can come up with appropriate ways to balance the inequality. :-)

[masterpeach]

I used to play RL role plays (The Dark Eye - the German version of D&D) and I used to be a member of a chess club when younger. I think strategy games are an NT/NF passion (just like maths and natural sciences) - there are just not that many NT/NF women out there. (Both of my INFJ friends play chess very well.)

Edit: My dad didn't teach me chess. I learned it from a book (and TV) and later the club.

[Vulkan]

	Originally Posted by masterpeach To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I used to play RL role plays (The Dark Eye - the German version of D&D) and I used to be a member of a chess club when younger. I think strategy games are an NT passion (just like maths and natural sciences) - there are just not that many NT women out there. Edit: My dad didn't teach me chess. I learned it from a book (and TV) and later the club.

I wouldn't say it's NT only, I know an INFP girl that's loved chess since she was on the team in High School, and she's VERY good at it.

[masterpeach]

	Originally Posted by Vulkan To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I wouldn't say it's NT only, I know an INFP girl that's loved chess since she was on the team in High School, and she's VERY good at it.

Yes, you are right - I just edited my post. I think it's the intuition part that makes you successful at it.

[ktgrey]

Maybe because it's agonizing to play for 4 hours and then lose. I think egos get destroyed more easily in chess than in other games even because there's no team, there's no random factor, and you spend alot of time per game. When you blunder away a win after a long game its quite depressing.

[Pragmatist]

I suppose you can't explain why someone else doesn't do something that you do. Maybe you're right MP, maybe it is an iNtuitive thing. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree here. Perhaps I should go ask a Sensory forum. Still, if anyone else has any theories I'm interested.

I mean it's not as though all my guy friends like chess, in fact my best friend doesn't even like chess and he's an INTJ, but again it's not so much the individual-to-individual basis that makes me wonder. It's the group statistics.

By the way, Ben, I wasn't implying female athletes are only competing to prove they are as good as men. I meant that there is a fair amount of female competitors who dislike the idea that men think they are better and they would be happy to prove them wrong if they could but in 90% of sports there is no cross-gender competition on a regular basis. And then of course in games like Football there is no way for women to win because there aren't enough physically large women to create a sufficient talent pool to make it fair. That's why I'd expect all the females who DO have something to prove to flock to competitions like pool, chess, etc. Games of skill that don't require any specific physical attributes and are completely even playing fields.

[NoahAddle]

1. The most physically attractive and outgoing males don't tend to play chess. So, as a girl you'll be spending your time with socially awkward nerds.
2. There is no social status to be gained from being a female chess player. In fact, it may make you seem abnormal or weird to other people.
3. Chess is a game that is hard to appreciate until you have a minimum requisite level of skill. This is different from music, dance, or physical sports where even a novice can quickly understand the aesthetic beauty.

[masterpeach]

It could also be a cultural reason. Playing (to win) in general does not match the traditional role of females probably. Chess also has sort of a "nerd nimbus", maybe that's why women still shy away from it.
Wasn't chess originally played in Arabia?

I talked to a co-worker of mine who studied mathematics - he loves strategy games, but said that chess was also a lot about practice and learning by heart. (Once you know a constellation, you know how to play it if you spent some time analyzing famous competitions.)

[floramacivor]

I'm an INTJ female and I don't play chess. I don't play competitive sports, either. Putting that much time into something that's just a game seems pointless when there are so many practical, useful things to learn, I guess. And I don't know if I could ever see three or more moves ahead. Maybe I have a weak Ni.

[Alrah]

	Originally Posted by masterpeach To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Edit: My dad didn't teach me chess. I learned it from a book (and TV) and later the club.

Me too. I learned it from a book and taught my younger brother. :D

[Artio]

I guess I'm unqualified to answer as I do like chess, but not that much that I'd go to tournaments, and I grew up playing Pac-Man and Bouder Dash. And yes, we did use a stone as a pillow.

[Pragmatist]

Originally Posted by NoahAddle

1. The most physically attractive and outgoing males don't tend to play chess. So, as a girl you'll be spending your time with socially awkward nerds. 2. There is no social status to be gained from being a female chess player. In fact, it may make you seem abnormal or weird to other people. 3. Chess is a game that is hard to appreciate until you have a minimum requisite level of skill. This is different from music, dance, or physical sports where even a novice can quickly understand the aesthetic beauty.

Those are all very good observations, and probably true. However, it would seem that they should only apply to the majority of women. The majority of men don't play chess or D&D or other nerdy things either. However, that still doesn't explain the disparity between the number of male and female nerds, especially in the practice/playing of some sort of game.

---------- Post added 09-11-2010 at 09:24 AM ----------

Originally Posted by masterpeach To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It could also be a cultural reason. Playing (to win) in general does not match the traditional role of females probably. Chess also has sort of a "nerd nimbus", maybe that's why women still shy away from it. Wasn't chess originally played in Arabia? I talked to a co-worker of mine who studied mathematics - he loves strategy games, but said that chess was also a lot about practice and learning by heart. (Once you know a constellation, you know how to play it if you spent some time analyzing famous competitions.)

I believe it started in India.

What is a "constellation"? Is that the same as an opening position? Is that what Germans call it? Neat.

The thing I like about chess is that it can be applied to most of life. When you break it down into principles, you're trying to make the moves that give you the most advantages and least disadvantages. You calculate instead of just leaping before you look, and you have to always be aware of the fact that while you may not have an exact purpose for a move your actions now directly effect your options in the future.

---------- Post added 09-11-2010 at 09:32 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by floramacivor To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm an INTJ female and I don't play chess. I don't play competitive sports, either. Putting that much time into something that's just a game seems pointless when there are so many practical, useful things to learn, I guess. And I don't know if I could ever see three or more moves ahead. Maybe I have a weak Ni.

See, this is the mindset I don't understand. "Just a game." What are we all living for if not to try and have fun with whatever time we have? I would say games are closer to the purpose of life than working or most other things we take seriously. Besides, games benefit us in such diverse ways. Not only do you get to have fun but you get to challenge your mind, sometimes your body, as well as learn practical skills. As I gave in the example above in response to masterpeach, a lot of what you learn from games applies more to real life than what you learn in 'real life'. For example, in school they taught me NOTHING. Yet, from games and competition I have learned that all you really need is to keep your mind and body sharp and have an unbreakable will. I've also learned critical thinking, strategic planning, teamwork, leadership, patience, etc.

For the record, generally speaking, not even grand masters see 3 moves ahead. Truth is you play be principle not by foresight. Like "I'm going to place my knight here because he's closer to the center of the board and that means later he'll have more options to choose from of who to attack and how." Even when I play computers and watch their thinking as lines of moves, you can see that they evaluate a set of moves they predict you will make and I almost never make those moves. They're always re-thinking.

[rara avis]

I had a passing interest in learning chess when I was a teenager, but not enough to teach myself. I had the impression it was something that would suit me to know. My mom doesn't play, though, and my dad knows how, but never would sit still long enough to teach me when I asked.

I don't know how much of this is personality type and how much is just me, but I suspect that chess would be like most games anyway, for me: not interesting enough to overcome my... sensitivity to the stakes of competition. And no one likes to play with me because of that; once I'm really challenged, I'm not "playing" anymore, and things can get unpleasant for everyone. Not fun.

I have a hard time being patient with games I'm not pretty well assured of winning- which makes learning most games difficult for me. Character flaw. Either I get bored or I get irritated before I get good. I play Trivial Pursuit because I win, or at least am good, to start with.

I hate card games, and most board games, most of all because they're stultifying. Bored games. I'm always more interested in aspects that are outside the rules & concerns of the game itself. My mind would rather wander away. The game itself is always missing a certain depth and complexity that makes things worthwhile... I'm more interested in Through the Looking Glass than in just moving dull plastic pieces around a flat board according to arbitrary rules.

[NoahAddle]

Maybe another way to look at is through the lens of statistics. If you accept the idea that chess is the quintessential INTJ game (because a disproportionate number of chess masters are INTJ), then you can look at the numbers in the following way:

INTJ Males naturally outnumber INTJ Females by a ratio of 3:1 or comprise 75% of the INTJ population. To get to 90% male like you observe, it wouldn't be a stretch to include cultural factors that discourage women from participating.

[Pragmatist]

Originally Posted by NoahAddle To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Maybe another way to look at is through the lens of statistics. If you accept the idea that chess is the quintessential INTJ game (because a disproportionate number of chess masters are INTJ), then you can look at the numbers in the following way: INTJ Males naturally outnumber INTJ Females by a ratio of 3:1 or comprise 75% of the INTJ population. To get to 90% male like you observe, it wouldn't be a stretch to include cultural factors that discourage women from participating.

That is a fantastic way of looking at it! The question then is, why are a disproportionate amount of men INTJ?
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But that's a bit off topic and probably too complex to answer.

---------- Post added 09-11-2010 at 10:06 AM ----------

Originally Posted by rara avis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I had a passing interest in learning chess when I was a teenager, but not enough to teach myself. I had the impression it was something that would suit me to know. My mom doesn't play, though, and my dad knows how, but never would sit still long enough to teach me when I asked. I don't know how much of this is personality type and how much is just me, but I suspect that chess would be like most games anyway, for me: not interesting enough to overcome my... sensitivity to the stakes of competition. And no one likes to play with me because of that; once I'm really challenged, I'm not "playing" anymore, and things can get unpleasant for everyone. Not fun. I have a hard time being patient with games I'm not pretty well assured of winning- which makes learning most games difficult for me. Character flaw. Either I get bored or I get irritated before I get good. I play Trivial Pursuit because I win, or at least am good, to start with. I hate card games, and most board games, most of all because they're stultifying. Bored games. I'm always more interested in aspects that are outside the rules & concerns of the game itself. My mind would rather wander away. The game itself is always missing a certain depth and complexity that makes things worthwhile... I'm more interested in Through the Looking Glass than in just moving dull plastic pieces around a flat board according to arbitrary rules.

Actually, it might be an NT thing because we take life so damn seriously we feel like competition is the end of the world. Myself and my best friend (INTJ) also happen to be like that for most of our life. He still is a bit but I'm very much getting past it. I'm learning that losing is part of winning and the faster you lose the faster you get to win, so you can't hold back.

[Silverity]

Your question is really "why don't women like chess tournaments". There are plenty of women who play chess and D&D. Every gaming event I've been to for both of those has been female dominated.

My humble observation is it depends on the reason for the event: is it competition or social. Women seem more drawn to the social and fun aspect of the games rather than the competition. I played in a couple competitions for gaming and I found it lifeless. You go in, beat someone (or lose) and you leave. Yawn. But social events you're with your friends, there is food and drink, laughter, etc, I find it much more appealing. Maybe other women are more like me?

[Pragmatist]

Originally Posted by Silverity To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Your question is really "why don't women like chess tournaments". There are plenty of women who play chess and D&D. Every gaming event I've been to for both of those has been female dominated. My humble observation is it depends on the reason for the event: is it competition or social. Women seem more drawn to the social and fun aspect of the games rather than the competition. I played in a couple competitions for gaming and I found it lifeless. You go in, beat someone (or lose) and you leave. Yawn. But social events you're with your friends, there is food and drink, laughter, etc, I find it much more appealing. Maybe other women are more like me?

Define "plenty of women"
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Actually, I'm not talking about tournaments. I've only been in one online chess tournament. When I go into online chess rooms to find games, or in the two cases I went to actual clubs ( hated both experiences ) there were few or no females. It seems you had a different experience though. So perhaps I should be asking "Do females like chess and D&D?" Maybe we should find some statistics somewhere. Or do a poll. TO THE INTERNETSSSS!!! -batman music-

---------- Post added 09-11-2010 at 10:20 AM ----------

That does make a lot of sense by the way, that women would be more attracted to the social aspects and men the competitive. But why do you suppose that is? Is it because men are raised to believe they have to prove themselves and women are raised to believe otherwise?

[Silverity]

Over all gaming in Canada is about 50-50 now. I don't know the break down per game. For the record, there are women who pretend they are men online in order to be treated equally, so how do you know the players you're with are actually men? Are there webcams and voice chat?

Women are socialized to work together, to get along, and men are socialized to be dominant leaders. (Western society) To me it's kind of a no brainer that we would have a natural inclination to games where we can have fun as opposed to strictly beat one another.

EDIT: We might also want to look at differences between online and offline gaming. I don't play chess online, I play it on a chess board. Same with backgammon and D&D. With people in front of me that I can eat food with =P The gaming events I go to are all in person.

[Pragmatist]

Originally Posted by Silverity To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Over all gaming in Canada is about 50-50 now. I don't know the break down per game. For the record, there are women who pretend they are men online in order to be treated equally, so how do you know the players you're with are actually men? Are there webcams and voice chat? Women are socialized to work together, to get along, and men are socialized to be dominant leaders. (Western society) To me it's kind of a no brainer that we would have a natural inclination to games where we can have fun as opposed to strictly beat one another. EDIT: We might also want to look at differences between online and offline gaming. I don't play chess online, I play it on a chess board. Same with backgammon and D&D. With people in front of me that I can eat food with =P The gaming events I go to are all in person.

Where do you get the 50/50 stats from?

Ha ha, REALLY? I can see that, but it's funny to me because there are a ton of guys ( a lot of them of questionable sexuality ) who pretend to be females in order to get special attention and assistance from lonely gamer boys who dream of having an elvish girlfriend.
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I won't deny, there were times when I got some sweet gear and a few free dungeon runs from telling someone I was a girl. I'm not proud of it but... well.. yeah I am a little. :D

You're most likely right, that seems to be the case anyway, but I still don't get WHY women are socialized that way? Is it just left over tradition from when women were nothing but trophies to show around when they weren't pregnant, cooking or taking care of children? Why shouldn't women also be encouraged to be competitive? Statistics show that women ask for and receive less money when starting a new position than men. They also statistically offer more and receive less for a used car than men. I believe a lot of this has to do with the nervousness that comes from lack of competition. They are more easily intimidated, it would see, and don't know their own value.

Also an interesting point. I would assume women would game more online because they'd have to take it more seriously to go to an event and girls don't seem to take games as seriously. However, by your description, it seems the opposite. Females prefer live events.

I have to go for now but if I get the chance I'd like to see if I can find any polls, or create one.

[freeeekyyy]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Not that ZERO women are interested in chess, but in my experience the ratio of men to women in chess tournaments and such are about 10:1 or something like that. Now sports I can understand. Men are the ones with the big egos who have to smash some other guy to prove to ourselves that our dad's were wrong and we AREN'T a loser. But why not something like chess? It's intellectual, nobody gets hurt, games don't have to take very long you can play blitz or 10 minute games... so what's the deal? Same thing with video games. Now I'm running into more and more females who are gamers, and that's exciting, but still overall the ratio is something like 10:1. I don't understand the disconnect there. Especially since it always seems like women are looking for equal proving grounds where they can show up men. Chess and video games have no gender bias as far as your potential. It seems perfect.

Personally, I don't see much difference between competing on a football field and a chessboard. You're looking at this too concretely. They're basically the same thing.

[Silverity]

The stats are from a gaming convention I attended
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I think, at least in Canada, it's more acceptable to be a gamer (you don't lose social status over it) and so you have more women openly playing.

The attention and free stuff bit gets old very quickly. Especially when those lovely white knights end up asking for sex, for romance advice, or treating you like you're their mother.

Western society is still controlled by men, why would guys want to give up their power to women? If you have power and resources you want to retain them, not give them away. And if women are docile little creatures that are socialized to take care of their husbands and not take more than their share of food and money... isn't that convenient? This is a whole other thread though, and I believe has been discussed at length across the forums.

In terms of competition, I'd hazard a guess that women are more drawn to competition in teams. Sports and other team games where you get a mix of social and competition. I'm not sure about this though.

[Haildancer]

I love chess, I simply have no time for, nor do I have interest in tournaments. My time is already allocated.

[INTJewel]

I like chess but I don't have the killer instinct to win. Risk, too. I just sit there, building up a huge defensive army that I can't handle and always, always lose.