[kepstein8888]

During one of my recent stream-of-consciousness trips through Wikipedia, I came across the article on "Death of a Salesman." Normally, I don't like depressing plays with no singing or dancing, but the following line struck me as odd:

"[H]is downfall arises directly from his...unshakable conviction that greatness stems directly from personal charisma or popularity."

Immediately, I thought of us INTJs, who I suspect have the opposite problem: we struggle to get by on what we know and our wits, while millions skate through life based on charm, personal connections, "selling themselves," and so on.

I was wondering whether this is indeed part of the struggle many INTJs experience, and if so, what are your experiences with it? Who do you think wins in today's world: the geeks, or the shmoozers?

[Jeroen De Dauw]

I think it's a basic conviction of pretty much every INTJ that being awesome is a lot more important then simply appearing to be. For some this goes as far as to not even caring about appearance at all. So although many experience this, few will see this as a bad thing (but others, non-INTJs, might).

[masterpeach]

	Originally Posted by kepstein8888 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Who do you think wins in today's world: the geeks, or the shmoozers?

I think the IT and engineering industry is the only business (and, therefore, the playground of many NTs) where the geeks win. However, "shmoozers" intrude even into these businesses.
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In my opinion, only a combination of both can and should win.

[Mikey69]

	Originally Posted by masterpeach To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think the IT and engineering industry is the only business (and, therefore, the playground of many NTs) where the geeks win. However, "shmoozers" intrude even into these businesses. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. In my opinion, only a combination of both can and should win.

I can be quite charming when I need to be. If I want a little extroverted intuition (aka. bullshit) to do the job, I have the ability.

This is handy when you have the potential (through intelligence and intuition) but not the practical. Very handy when dealing with job interviews and I was actually getting good at meeting women when all of a sudden my wife snatched me up.

I do have a problem with schmoozers at most of my workplaces. I hate the lesser skilled who suck up rather than seek skills improvement. My present boss is a weak kneed bitch who will not lead with reason and respect. It's not just me observing this at my workplace either.

[Ian Morrison]

Marketing, in a general sense, is a skill I don't have but very much need to learn. It's incredibly important in this day an age. Keep in mind, though, that I'm not talking about schmoozing. I'm talking about knowing how to get information to people. The people who go far aren't merely those who are awesome, but who know how to let people KNOW that they're awesome. Having only one or the other isn't nearly so effective.

I know that a lot of IT people (myself included) and by extension probably a lot of INTJs tend to view marketing as something dishonest and slimey, but it really doesn't need to be. It's ultimately a more general about being able to present yourself, and to get your name/product/ideas out into the world. The dishonesty and manipulativeness with which the marketing profession is so often tarred with doesn't need to enter into it.

[Mikey69]

Wouldn't the ability to manipulate appeal to our strategist side?

[Ian Morrison]

I don't know about you, but I hate it when people try to manipulate me, and I tend to invoke the golden rule in situations like this. I'm probably defining manipulation fairly narrowly (as sneaky, underhanded tricks to change people's behaviour without their knowledge or consent) but it feels pretty dishonest to me.

[Mikey69]

I hate being manipulated, I would rather use reason. Reason doesn't always work, the unreasonable run rampant.

Let me reiterate. I wouldn't use manipulation or intellectual dishonesty intentionally on someone I respect.

If I can manipulate someone, I will often detest/lose respect for them afterward.

[Smacknrat]

.... I like being flirted with and being sucked up to. It's an ego thing. In return I tell others how awesome they are and do a little extra work.

No one likes being manipulated, but I don't think schmoozing is manipulation, just ego stroking...

[Night Runner]

	Originally Posted by kepstein8888 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Who do you think wins in today's world: the geeks, or the shmoozers?

Both. Depends on how you define "winning," really. For 99.9% of our history as a species, schmoozers ruled the show: they'd get laid more often, network more, party harder, etc. On the other hand, fairly recent developments in technology and science allowed geeks (geeks in certain fields, mind you - nobody cares about butterfly collectors) to accumulate money and power. That, in turn, lets them acquire anything schmoozers take for granted.

[void]

Originally Posted by Night Runner To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Both. Depends on how you define "winning," really. For 99.9% of our history as a species, schmoozers ruled the show: they'd get laid more often, network more, party harder, etc. On the other hand, fairly recent developments in technology and science allowed geeks (geeks in certain fields, mind you - nobody cares about butterfly collectors) to accumulate money and power. That, in turn, lets them acquire anything schmoozers take for granted.

Agreed on the missing definition part. However, since the advent of human civilization there have always been groups of geeks who led comfortable lives. Not necessarily lives with trinkets and orgies* but pleasant nonetheless. Greek philosophers, European academics from 1650 onward, and engineers come to mind.


* most geeks aren't interested in much of the former, and characteristically lack the necessary social skills to experience the latter

[Booko]

	Originally Posted by masterpeach To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think the IT and engineering industry is the only business (and, therefore, the playground of many NTs) where the geeks win. However, "shmoozers" intrude even into these businesses. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

No, if you own your own business geeks can win, because it's about your competence and you can't schmooze yourself.
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Being able to communicate on someone's else's level helps in some ways, but that's not shmoozing.

Also, if you have a job that has clear measurements of productivity, schmoozing is less important. The numbers are what management look at. You can schmooze all you like but if you ain't producing, you can't make it seem like you are.

Oh yeah, and conventional medicine. Any of you have to work with docs?

[landa]

I used to have a big problem with this (thought the world was supposed to work like Atlas Shrugged says it should). However, I've come to realize that what people call "schmoozing" is really just basic social interaction, and is part of what makes us people.

I recently had the distinct displeasure of interacting with a few stereotypical computer science types (which I think is a pretty good proxy for the INTJ personality), and was very put off by their demeanor. In contrast, all my colleagues are more toward the ENFP side of the spectrum, and I can tell that there is something distinctly different between our personality types, yet I enjoy working and talking with them.

So although I am more INTJ than ENFP, I guess I enjoy hanging out with moderate INTJ to moderate ENFP types, more than I would extreme INTJs. Does that make sense?

Work is a good example. You can be both competent and a likable/social person. You will only get marginal gains from ignoring the social aspect and devoting that effort to becoming more competent (assuming that you are pretty good at what you do to begin with).

[freeeekyyy]

	Originally Posted by masterpeach To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think the IT and engineering industry is the only business (and, therefore, the playground of many NTs) where the geeks win.

I don't think this is really true. "Geeks" win in pretty much any technical field. Economics, physics, biology, psychology, the list goes on and on. "Schmoozers" win in industries where the primary purpose is to sell a product. Well, really anything "customer-facing." If it's a behind-the-scenes job, the "geeks" will be preferred.

[True Rune]

F types with good extroverted feeling and T types with crappy introverted feeling seem to get by the best. I wonder why this is..

[sadf]

ENFJs are the best manipulators! Its probably their Fe.

[Booko]

After much consideration, I have decided neither Geeks nor Schmoozers win.

Geezers do.

[Zsych]

Wait for machines that manifest your internal vision to build things - and then we'll win altogether.

*starts working on miniature super computer nano-tech factory, for the sake of all NTs*
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Normally though, you need people skills, and those with greater people skills are often happier than we are.

[DrEvil]

When did a schmoozer last win the Nobel Prize, or the Field's Medal? And I am talking about the real Nobel's, not the 'Peace Prize' or 'Literature', which are just an embarassing joke.

[Zsych]

Appreciation by a small minority of people means little.

[DrEvil]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Appreciation by a small minority of people means little.

Oh I don't know. A lot of people seek appreciation by their peers, rather than Joe Average.

[Commissar]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Appreciation by a small minority of people means little.

I'd rather have the appreciation of the minority of intelligent, rational people than that of the stupid, ignorant majority

[blatant]

If you can't learn how to feign charm and social convention, then why do you deserve the title of "mastermind?"

I'm sure that a mastermind can seamlessly blend 'geek' and 'schmoozer'

[Nonsuch]

Somebody needs to start a Schmoozing thread over at the INTJ Lounge to let us practice our schmoozing skills. We submit a post to 1) rate the schmooze-factor of the last post (f.ex. 1 to 6) and then 2) try to schmooze the last poster.

How does that sound ?

[Geminii]

	Originally Posted by Nonsuch To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	How does that sound ?

Masterful, oh wise and benevolent one...