[boldbidder]

Very very
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details the cultural acceptance (for one tribe in particular) of older men taking young boys (9 to 15 years old) as lovers.

I recall in the very good film, 'The Kite Runner', such behavior being touched upon, but had no idea that it was commonplace in some sects of Afghan society. Much as been made, and rightfully so, about the treatment of women in the Middle East and Afghanistan in particular, but the openness and acceptance of this behavior turns the stomach.

The article also states that the Kurzai family is from tribe that is most notorious for this behavior and that several anonymous sources claim at least a few of the Karzai brothers have (perhaps continue to) engage in molesting young boys. I'm literally beside myself with rage.

[ATCGs]

Not just afghanistan. The philippines, parts of africa, china, india.

World's a fucked up place.

[plotthickens]

Male homosexual pedophilia has a long history, dating back to Greece. It was seen as a way to initiate into manhood and literally pass on information. This is why the root of "testify", "testament", and "testicle" are all so similar: the male genitals were seen as the generation of knowledge. To be buggered was to have knowledge put in you (only male-on-male, of course). Unsavory by modern morals, but there you go.

[boldbidder]

I was vaguely familiar with such things in ancient Greek culture. I was just naive a guess in my ignorance about how such things have persisted.

*Shakes head*

*Reaches for bottle of Woodford*

[hubcap]

Yep. My best friend clued me in on this after he came back from Afghanistan. He said it was rampant among the Pashtuns. He went on to say the men didn't even want to have sex with women as they considered them "unclean".

[Holiman]

Call me silly but this is somehow worse or even as bad as the rampant rapes of women in this country not to mention the stoning to death of men and women for menial crimes?? The murders for religion, acceptance and hero worship of suicide bombers??


To me its like yelling about how bad the paint is while the house is on fire.

[Zsych]

The afghans have a reputation for having sex with anything - typically including any number of animals. I'm not really sure how their culture developed that way. I've always thought it was an expression of sexual frustration.

IIRC, in Afghanistan, typically if you want to marry a woman, you give a large number of gifts and money (reverse dowry), to the girl's father, as opposed to places like India or Pakistan where a girl (and her family) will want a huge dowry when she gets married to show her value and status. It might be that most guys couldn't easily afford wives so they resorted to stuff like this.

Anyway, civilizations evolve in strange ways. This is what happens when you don't have a clear way to define right and wrong and measure progress. People do whatever makes sense to them at the time and over time any number of ideas can come to be accepted as normal.
(I consider stuff like a man or woman leaving their spouse and kids, because they no longer feel a spark, and it being mostly acceptable, a similarly absurd form of social evolution
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[Mogura]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The afghans have a reputation for having sex with anything - typically including any number of animals. I'm not really sure how their culture developed that way. I've always thought it was an expression of sexual frustration.

That's a coincidence, as I've heard the same thing about Westerners...

[Vermillion]

	Originally Posted by boldbidder To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm literally beside myself with rage.

Why? It never ceases to amaze me how people can feel this so called "moral outrage" over things that have absolutely no affect on their lives. But really now, if you want to feel self righteous fury about something there are many things happening in the world that are significantly worse than two people far apart of age and of the same sex having a consensual sexual relationship.

[boldbidder]

	Originally Posted by Vermillion To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why? It never ceases to amaze me how people can feel this so called "moral outrage" over things that have absolutely no affect on their lives.

Call me when you're a 9yo getting buggered by 40 somethings.

[Blackwark]

He's never been an arabian boy in that position and neither have you. It seems we have at least a little insight into why it happens, and I do feel somewhat disgusted by it at the same time. That being said, in their culture, the child may even see this as a positive step forward in their lives. We may see something different, and worry about the children of that group, but what can be done? That's not "*shrug* can't do anything statement", it's a "what, seriously, do we do about it if we feel it's wrong? How do we convince these people we're right? Can we? How?"

Also, I think it's important to distinguish WHY this is a bad thing, even in a context other than our own lives.

[Vermillion]

	Originally Posted by boldbidder To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Call me when you're a 9yo getting buggered by 40 somethings.

What makes you think the 9 year olds don't like it? It is an accepted part of their culture after all so most likely they view it as a positive thing like in Greece. But seriously, you're anger over this is meaningless, it doesn't do a damn thing to help this so called victims now does it. If you really feel as much outrage as you say then why don't you go over there and try and do something about it? One man vs. an entire culture, I think that would be an interesting scenario.

[boldbidder]

I'm open minded enough to realize that a teen choosing to take a lover is one thing, but a small child doesn't really get to make that choice, it's made for them.

I have zero ideas as to what can be done, it's just fraked. Just like the way rape is viewed as justified in the Congo and other parts of Africa, it's just fraked. For the most shocking part was the how socially acceptable it seems to be. Atrocities happen all the time, yes, but in the majority of instances (aside from the perpetrators) everyone can agree that the acts were in fact atrocious.

[gestalt]

Ugh. Pederasty in Ancient Greece. (
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[Vermillion]

	Originally Posted by boldbidder To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	trocities happen all the time, yes, but in the majority of instances (aside from the perpetrators) everyone can agree that the acts were in fact atrocious.

You seem to be trying to project your own views of right and wrong onto this culture and are forgetting the subjective nature of morality. You kind of remind me of those people who want pot to remain illegal "because its just wrong!". A victimless crime is not a crime. To make the statement that an atrocity is being committed here you have to prove that those kids are being damaged or hurt in some way.

Ok, lets try this, present us with a logical reason as why the relationships between the older men and boys in this culture is damaging to the young boys. If you can come up with something good, I'll give you a cookie. :D

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by Vermillion To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ok, lets try this, present us with a logical reason as why the relationships between the older men and boys in this culture is damaging to the young boys. If you can come up with something good, I'll give you a cookie. :D

The phrase is consenting ADULTS. 9 years old is not an adult. No chance for informed consent. Hell, we don't reach full brain weight until 17 - 20. There's consensual sex, there's chickenhawking, and then there's raping a child.

[Blackwark]

See, rape is horrible no matter what. In many places, we classify underage sex with someone over age to be a type of rape. A particularly heinous one. Because we don't think children should make, or can properly make these decisions.
They may view children as mature much earlier over there.
How comfortable are you with describing children as having less than human mental capacities? Probably very easily.
For them, might the distinction be less noticed, especially when confronted with how strict lifestyles there can be? Children may seem older because they are taught to seem older.
Might this not be true?
But then, what's the measure of difference between acting and being mature anyway?
-Devils advocate

[plotthickens]

Originally Posted by Blackwark To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

See, rape is horrible no matter what. In many places, we classify underage sex with someone over age to be a type of rape. A particularly heinous one. Because we don't think children should make, or can properly make these decisions. They may view children as mature much earlier over there. How comfortable are you with describing children as having less than human mental capacities? Probably very easily. For them, might the distinction be less noticed, especially when confronted with how strict lifestyles there can be? Children may seem older because they are taught to seem older. Might this not be true? But then, what's the measure of difference between acting and being mature anyway? -Devils advocate

Oh please. Child psychological development is fairly well documented, and the coping mechanisms of an adult VS child brain are fairly well understood. A child pretending to be an adult is not an adult and cannot bring home a salary, pay bills, maintain a household, or consent to sex.

[Blackwark]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The phrase is consenting ADULTS. 9 years old is not an adult. No chance for informed consent. Hell, we don't reach full brain weight until 17 - 20. There's consensual sex, there's chickenhawking, and then there's raping a child.

Ah, but they may consider them to be an adult, however incorrectly. English culture has been guilty of this as well, though it has died out quite a bit with science. Perhaps a route in through at least the more scientific of the culture in general.

---------- Post added 09-01-2010 at 05:38 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Oh please. Child psychological development is fairly well documented, and the coping mechanisms of an adult VS child brain are fairly well understood. A child pretending to be an adult is not an adult and cannot bring home a salary, pay bills, maintain a household, or consent to sex.

They can and have worked for salary in the past. They've helped pay bills and maintain households as well. Siblings adopt parental roles in situations, and may do quite well. While I agree with your feelings, your argument isn't holding water this time. It's an interesting one.
You saying child development research is well documented is very important, and well put however. Why don't THEY seem to regard that? Do they ignore it?

---------- Post added 09-01-2010 at 05:54 PM ----------

Whenever the thinking gets hard, the lazy ones will disappear. I hope you're just searching out your next response because I think this can go interesting and constructive places.

[phoboser]

	Originally Posted by Vermillion To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ok, lets try this, present us with a logical reason as why the relationships between the older men and boys in this culture is damaging to the young boys. If you can come up with something good, I'll give you a cookie. :D

Power -physical, economic and social- and intellect differential means that consent isn't mutually vulnerable to coercion (by a long shot), and the fact that little boys, lacking a sex drive, don't pursue sexual relationships of their own volition strongly implies that the issue of consent has no bearing on the relationship at all. It's rape in any culture. Rape may be culturally acceptable and the harm caused by culturally acceptable rape may be ignored or dismissed by moral relativists, but it's still rape. Keep your cookie it'll make me vomit.

[rickster]

Aren't all our enemies rapists and sodomites?

Based on our definitions of course.

[Mogura]

	Originally Posted by rickster To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Aren't all our enemies rapists and sodomites? Based on our definitions of course.

We are our own worst enemies, no?

[Danisty]

Basically I agree with Vermillion. I would most definitely say it's wrong in my culture, but what business do I have deciding how things work in someone else's culture? I know people have a hard time accepting it, but 9 year olds aren't the same everywhere you go. There is not a universal rule on how 9 year olds think and behave. Even within the U.S. there are examples of children expected to act in ways most of the population would consider overly mature (the Amish come to mind...those kids start working very early on and take on responsibilities most would assume a child can't take on).

Originally Posted by phoboser To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Power -physical, economic and social- and intellect differential means that consent isn't mutually vulnerable to coercion (by a long shot), and the fact that little boys, lacking a sex drive, don't pursue sexual relationships of their own volition strongly implies that the issue of consent has no bearing on the relationship at all. It's rape in any culture. Rape may be culturally acceptable and the harm caused by culturally acceptable rape may be ignored or dismissed by moral relativists, but it's still rape. Keep your cookie it'll make me vomit.

Wait, who says little boys lack a sex drive and don't pursue these relationships of their own volition? Who says this relationship, from the boy's perspective, is even driven by sex and not some other benefit and they simply don't mind the sex? Please provide some links specifically about Afghan boys and their perspective on this practice.

I'm always amazed when people claim that children lack sexuality or a sex drive. Lots and lots of children are very sexual and have pretty wild and vivid imaginations about sex. Believing otherwise is more or less a kind of fantasy that adults have about purity and innocence as if sexuality automatically strips away those two traits.

[phoboser]

Originally Posted by Danisty To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Wait, who says little boys lack a sex drive and don't pursue these relationships of their own volition? Who says this relationship, from the boy's perspective, is even driven by sex and not some other benefit and they simply don't mind the sex? Please provide some links specifically about Afghan boys and their perspective on this practice. I'm always amazed when people claim that children lack sexuality or a sex drive. Lots and lots of children are very sexual and have pretty wild and vivid imaginations about sex. Believing otherwise is more or less a kind of fantasy that adults have about purity and innocence as if sexuality automatically strips away those two traits.

Is it your contention that, were it not for social taboo, 9 year olds would desire and pursue sexual relationships with adults in numbers comparable to those in Afghanistan? Or that, in the cases where 9 year olds aren't desiring and pursuing sexual relationships, believing oneself to have consented out of economic desperation, or because it's expected, mitigates the harm that the rape might cause?

[boldbidder]

	Originally Posted by Vermillion To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You seem to be trying to project your own views of right and wrong onto this culture and are forgetting the subjective nature of morality.

Guilty. Buggering 9yo is bad in my book. Um....sorry?

	Originally Posted by Vermillion To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You kind of remind me of those people who want pot to remain illegal "because its just wrong!". A victimless crime is not a crime.

Now you're just projecting, no one mentioned pot or victimless crimes. But since when is child molestation 'victimless'. You'd do the discussion a better service if you actually did a lil bit of research as to the life long effects of kids who get molested. The negative effects span cultures and regions.

	Originally Posted by Vermillion To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	To make the statement that an atrocity is being committed here you have to prove that those kids are being damaged or hurt in some way.

See above, read a bit of literature on the subject then get back to me. I'll sit patiently and wait for that comprehensive study entitled 'Benefits of Buggering Boys'.

	Originally Posted by Vermillion To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ok, lets try this, present us with a logical reason as why the relationships between the older men and boys in this culture is damaging to the young boys. If you can come up with something good, I'll give you a cookie. :D

As I stated previously teenagers could potentially give consent, 9yo can't. I know lots of 9yo, my wife teaches 3rd grade and they aren't making intelligent decision about getting buggered by adult men. Oh and I prefer peanut butter or a light cinnamon sugar
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