[ssrprotege]

According to Lenore Thomson's book about personality, she claims that the culture we live in is an Extraverted Sensate culture.

Given that INTJ's only make up 1% of population, what is it like to live in the culture that does not necessarily agree with our viewpoints? What is it like to be such a minority?

I love to leave this question as open-ended as possible.

[Kotetsu]

Horrible, yet paradoxically wonderful. There are times when being INTJ makes society the most hostile and confusing place to exist in: when I can't accept its values, when I question them at every turn and contemplate their existence and consequences. Then again, being parallel (perpendicular? O.o) to the 'extraverted sensation' can allow the most beautiful moments of understanding and/or realisation of it or its people, and rarer, occasions where I can have discourse with another minority member.

[Firelie]

It's a little frustrating to know how awesome and special you are when very few other people actually notice or care.

[Kotetsu]

Only a little?

[sriv]

	Originally Posted by Firelie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's a little frustrating to know how awesome and special you are when very few other people actually notice or care.

This frustration can easily be cured by apathy and noncaring.

It sucks living in an ES culture. No room for change or stepping out of line. Freedom really goes down because a reputation can be smothered with the transition of a single whisper. Conform or it's you vs world.

[ElstonGunn]

It's like being the foreign guy who did his homework before going abroad. You understand everyone else, but they don't understand you or your strange customs. The thing you have to pay attention to is whether you're setting yourself up as the interesting guy with a different perspective, or the creepy, faux pas-prone weirdo that no one likes.

[blueback]

	Originally Posted by ElstonGunn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The thing you have to pay attention to is whether you're setting yourself up as the interesting guy with a different perspective, or the creepy, faux pas-prone weirdo that no one likes.

That's a good way of putting it. I think it has a lot to do with self-confidence.

Most people in the world don't have much self-confidence. I don't think it actually matters what their personality type is, self-confidence is indepenent of that. Personality type just guides how they respond to their feelings of confidence or doubt.

People with low self-confidence indulge the strongest parts of their personality and have a hard time being comfortable around other human beings. People with high self-confidence have balanced their personalities and can therefore engage with all sorts of different people. Other people don't do things that remind them of their own shortcommings.

[ssrprotege]

	Originally Posted by sriv To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This frustration can easily be cured by apathy and noncaring. It sucks living in an ES culture. No room for change or stepping out of line. Freedom really goes down because a reputation can be smothered with the transition of a single whisper. Conform or it's you vs world.

Yes, I agree with you
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. The general ES culture considers an INTJ a nerd - probably he/she appears too difficult to approach and too unconventional to understand. I guess the only way to "conform" is to have self-confidence that I can communicate unique ideas in a concise, easy way. As Elston put it, the way for people to break the promise is to develop self-confidence and extraverted thinking, just to relate themselves to the external world. Changing the ES culture in short period of time works in our idealistic world, but not in the real world. We need to make some adjustments, no matter independent-minded we are. (Doesn't sound INTJ?)

[azelismia]

	Originally Posted by Firelie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's a little frustrating to know how awesome and special you are when very few other people actually notice or care.

well there is this tee shirt,


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[soundchaser]

I laugh at the seemingly moronic decisions made by most people around me in this "ES" type world, from taking out bad mortgages, to allowing their children to run roughshod over them ,to becoming flatulent fatasses. Yet at the same time I somewhat envy these seemingly mindless drones who rarely seem to think past their next meal, as I wonder how much more enjoyable life might be if one weren't bogged down constantly thinking about everything.

[abski83]

It's like living with a bunch of people who are like this:
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[blueback]

I think that deserves a hearty "LOL."

This is probably going to sound elitist, but I don't care.

Evolution is a fact. Everything that's alive right now evolved as a result of natural processes. Therefore, if you want to understand a living thing it helps to place it in an evolutionary context.

I don't think that there is much of an evolutionary advantage to being INTJ. We are definitely more human than most, in that we maximize the things that seperate humans from animals, but animals evolve just fine.

Evolution favors those who produce children and empower them to produce their own children. Whether or not they understand quantum physics doesn't matter a single bit to evolution. An organism can be just as successful staying dumb and having a lot of kids as getting smart and having one kid. In fact, the dumb one will probably be more successful.

So, yes, I think that INTJs are more highly evolved than their MBTI counterparts. The problem is that we are also outnumbered. We are surrounded by people who are genetically optimized to be hunter-gatherers while we are genetically closer to gods. The vast majority of the people in the world wouldn't live their life any differently if they slept on the same patch of dirt their whole life and had never seen clothing. INTJs thrive on the technology and civilization of the present.

However, we are freaks. The average person bases most of their important decisions on their feelings, which are just genetic memory, and can't understand any concepts that aren't expressable with clip art. We can understand them, but they can't understand us. The culture tends to most satisfy the majority and the minority is left to huddle on the outskirts.

I wish that more people were capable of turning off American Idol and reading a book about Peak Oil. . . .but they're not. I'd feel bad about it but feelings don't get things done. In the end, even if I waste all my efforts on people who sabotage their own species' survival, I'll die knowing that I was me, and that will ultimately be enough.

[SShack]

I think it's a mistake to combine a perception of a culture's majority to the direction, flow, and more importantly, leadership, of that culture.

By which I mean, imagine what America would be like now if there were no NTs at all. We wouldn't even be able to communicate with each other like this without the innovative NTs. S's may dominate the culture, but the culture would never have evolved at all without N's.

As far as the rules go, you'd be surprised how much those S people step aside when you simply act with complete confidence as you're breaking those rules, as though you have the right to do so. The trick is to make it look like you're the one with the power to set the rules in the first place, something ENTs figure out that is probably confusing to some INTs. (Of course, that's also how evil ENTs end up responsible for huge crazy white-collar crimes where people say "How did this go on for so long with nobody doing anything?")

ESs made dominate our culture, but NTs are absolutely vital to the culture's progress, even the introverted ones.

[mkay]

blueblack, have you seen the movie "Idiocracy"? It's about stupid people taking over the world because smart people don't pop out kids as quickly. (I found the first bit funny, but the movie got old fast.)

I don't know whether this would work for you, but I haven't watched TV in years. One day, the stupidity wore me down and I cut off the cable. So I still have TVs, but all I can watch on them is static and DVDs. Not that I sit around watching static, but I find it a big relief not to invite stupidity into my home via TV.





mkay added to this post, 15 minutes and 55 seconds later...

SShack, I agree that NTs advance society and that ENTs can crack the S culture and lead. It takes a certain stomach for it, though. I was sent to a workshop aimed at moving people up the ladder. Essentially, it taught you how to be a better S. It weirded me out, because I'd already figured out all the weaselly tactics they taught; I just would never bring myself to use them. By then, I was already a manager in a pretty smart workplace, but I'd also worked in a couple of S-retarded environments previously. I knew exactly how to climb, but I would've had to compromise my value system to do it. To me, it just wasn't worth it.

[Richard0612]

	Originally Posted by sriv To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Conform or it's you vs world.

I'd gladly take the world on before conforming! Why should you have to conform simply because other people do? [aside, titbit of info: When people are 'individualist', most of the time they're being 'individual' in the same way that 5000 other people are, making them conformist [although to a lesser extent] than those who conform to 500,000 people!]

But, returning to the main point, I am fairly different to most ES people in the way that [these are generalisations, no offence intended]:

• I hate mobile phones
• I don't watch reality TV
• I don't trust my feelings
• I try not to feel too much
• I will challenge authority if necessary
• I like reading
• I like learning about obscure things
• I have little to no interest in relationships
• I am a strong atheist [I understand that in America around 80% of the populace believes in a 'personal God']

And, I would defend these beliefs and actions to the ends of the Earth before I conform! Sorry ESFxs, you're not getting into my brain!





Richard0612 added to this post, 5 minutes and 5 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by blueback To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I wish that more people were capable of turning off American Idol and reading a book about Peak Oil. . . .but they're not. I'd feel bad about it but feelings don't get things done. In the end, even if I waste all my efforts on people who sabotage their own species' survival, I'll die knowing that I was me, and that will ultimately be enough.

Agreed. I also wish that more people would wake up to the truth that 'there's a larger world out there'; if everyone used their brains to the highest degree, we would probably have cured cancer and got men on Mars by now. Instead they're all vegetating in front of the TV, ringing their friends up talking about nothing, wandering round the shops aimlessly and generally being thick. Wake up! </rant>

[Zilal]

Well, it's a little annoying, sometimes. But most of the time it's no great bother. I have some affection for certain ESs anyway.

[ssrprotege]

Originally Posted by blueback To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think that deserves a hearty "LOL." This is probably going to sound elitist, but I don't care. Evolution is a fact. Everything that's alive right now evolved as a result of natural processes. Therefore, if you want to understand a living thing it helps to place it in an evolutionary context. I don't think that there is much of an evolutionary advantage to being INTJ. We are definitely more human than most, in that we maximize the things that seperate humans from animals, but animals evolve just fine. Evolution favors those who produce children and empower them to produce their own children. Whether or not they understand quantum physics doesn't matter a single bit to evolution. An organism can be just as successful staying dumb and having a lot of kids as getting smart and having one kid. In fact, the dumb one will probably be more successful. So, yes, I think that INTJs are more highly evolved than their MBTI counterparts. The problem is that we are also outnumbered. We are surrounded by people who are genetically optimized to be hunter-gatherers while we are genetically closer to gods. The vast majority of the people in the world wouldn't live their life any differently if they slept on the same patch of dirt their whole life and had never seen clothing. INTJs thrive on the technology and civilization of the present. However, we are freaks. The average person bases most of their important decisions on their feelings, which are just genetic memory, and can't understand any concepts that aren't expressable with clip art. We can understand them, but they can't understand us. The culture tends to most satisfy the majority and the minority is left to huddle on the outskirts. I wish that more people were capable of turning off American Idol and reading a book about Peak Oil. . . .but they're not. I'd feel bad about it but feelings don't get things done. In the end, even if I waste all my efforts on people who sabotage their own species' survival, I'll die knowing that I was me, and that will ultimately be enough.

Admirable reply, thank you.





ssrprotege added to this post, 0 minutes and 52 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by abski83 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's like living with a bunch of people who are like this: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Yes, I have zero tolerance towards those stuff, just shuts my brain off immediately.
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[INTJoe]

It sucks big balls.

[Tenacious B]

I generally find it interesting to be so different from the majority of people. Our detached nature allows for some profound insights to our culture since we can view it objectively. I've found that when I get to know people better they seem to come to me to discuss their problems since I don't get involved, can see things clearly, and will not BS them (sometimes this works out well, sometimes not). This really plays into the mastermind characterization of INTJs.

Also, when I am disgusted by the idiocy surrounding me I generally try to look at it in a positive manner: I am different, and will not end up like the rest of them.

These points, of course, are in addition to the mounds of frustration that are generally encountered.

[Aronnax]

I find our culture frustrating and fascinating at the same time.

People regularly make bad decisions that will harm themselves and others and they seem impervious to rational advice against those actions. Individuals behave in a manner that's difficult to predict so it's hard to avoid getting dragged along unless you stand clear of them entirely.

On the other hand people are interesting because they're so hard to predict. Trying to find and decipher signals to predict behavior is one of the more challenging aspects of life. If everyone was rational it'd be very easy (boring) to anticipate behavior.

[errrzarrr]

	Originally Posted by blueback To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	However, we are freaks. The average person bases most of their important decisions on their feelings, which are just genetic memory, and can't understand any concepts that aren't expressable with clip art. We can understand them, but they can't understand us. The culture tends to most satisfy the majority and the minority is left to huddle on the outskirts.

oooh man! I liked that definition of feelings as genetic memory. Since now, I am going to use it when talking about evolutionism to pals, girls and family.

	Originally Posted by blueback To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The culture tends to most satisfy the majority and the minority is left to huddle on the outskirts.

well, I do not agree with that part pretty much. Maybe culture tends to satisfy the majority (and I am not that sure about that), but evolution not necessarily. In the evolution tree, we humans branched out of the original primate, because we were a physically weaker and less influent group but more deliberated and worried about the long-term actions. Look at it now, the difference is obvious and that's sharing 98%!!! of the ADN. So, the ADN code is not the reason of our abismal difference, I bet it is/was the attitude. Back then We was "INTJ"s monkeys, I would say.

[BlackHawk]

	Originally Posted by sriv To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Conform or it's you vs world.

I prefer to bet on me!

ES society sucks. Like Elston Gunn said, we can understand them (simple enough, eh?
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), but they cant understand us. We're "weird" to them, freaks. But that's OK because we're freaks on the right side of the bell curve!

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Oh, and from my experience:
Act like you know what you're doing, and no ES will challenge you.

[darkkodiak]

I for one find it very frustrating living in this ES world but do find this world interesting because of the ES culture domination. My main frustration I guess comes from that we just don't have enough NT leaders out there and considering how outnumbered we are, that's expected haha. We just got too many ES people in leadership roles who just make really really poor choices.

[marcclarke]

	Originally Posted by ssrprotege To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	According to Lenore Thomson's book about personality, she claims that the culture we live in is an Extraverted Sensate culture. Given that INTJ's only make up 1% of population, what is it like to live in the culture that does not necessarily agree with our viewpoints? What is it like to be such a minority? I love to leave this question as open-ended as possible.

I think my biggest "Ah-ha!" came from reading in the MBTI books and learning that strong Extroverts need to hear a new idea discussed out loud (ideally several different times) before they incorporate it into their own thinking. This was a huge breakthrough for me, as I previously not been able to grasp why some people not only enjoyed meetings, but actually found meetings useful and beneficial. This learning also began to give me some insight into why people loved to come into my cubicle again and again to ask me the same question (phrased differently, but asking for a repetition of the same discussion we had already had several times).This same learning also began to give me some insight for why so many people seem to be incapable of absorbing or incorporating a new idea by reading. They need to hear it discussed, and they need to discuss it (verbally, out loud) several times at least.

[ArchonAlarion]

Living in ES land, kills me. I'm an extremely high NT, so other people often come across as irrational. The problem is that because of the nature of Extraversion and Sensation, they will probably always be in the majority.