[Pragmatist]

If possible I think this should be an ongoing thread since there's so much to learn and so many of you are so wise in the MBTI arts. However, I have a single question to start with.

What is all this Fe, Ti, etc. I keep seeing around? Is this like a second or third dimension to the MBTI? Can someone please explain what they mean, how they are derived and how to understand them? Resource recommendations/links are very much welcome!

[someuser]

An INTJ uses these processes: Ni Te Fi Se

No one is 100% of one type, everyone introverts and extroverts.

The 'I' says what your top process is introverted (Ni). The J says that you extrovert either F or T as a leading process in the order. In this case, it's Te. It's what other people see. I mean, they aren't going to see Ni.

If you look at the chart of the processes the types with the letter P extrovert their S or N, depending on whether they're an I or E.

examples: INTJ, J means they E their T, Te, notice the Te in Ni Te Fi Se order
INTP, P means they E their N, Ne (Ti, Ne, Si, Fe), notice the Ne

ENFP is Ne Fi Te Si, P means S or N is extroverted, in this case Ne
ENTJ is Te Ni Se Fi, J means T or F is extroverted, in this case Te

What each one means, read here:
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[Sinequanon]

A good place to start would be the reference guide posted at the top of this very subforum:
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[Pragmatist]

Thanks for the links guys.

So are you saying each four letter type has a specific pre-determined set of cognitive processes? It's not unique to each individual within a type? For example, could one INTJ have Ti and another Te? Or are all INTJ's attributed with the same cognitive processes?

Also, what are these 'shadow' processes? In my research I am finding up to eight processes per personality type. Shouldn't there just be two if it's based on your N/S & T/F?

---------- Post added 08-09-2010 at 07:17 AM ----------


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This link has been of great help to me.
I believe I understand the whole 'shadow' process thing. It's basically the opposite right? So if you are Ni your shadow would be Ne. But how is this useful? Are they simply giving the information so you can consider working on those aspects of your personality to develop them as well?

Also, what if based on the definitions I feel I am equally Te and Ti? I don't really see much of a difference between the two. I'll consult the links you provided and hopefully find more answers.

[Necrosis]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Thanks for the links guys. So are you saying each four letter type has a specific pre-determined set of cognitive processes? It's not unique to each individual within a type? For example, could one INTJ have Ti and another Te? Or are all INTJ's attributed with the same cognitive processes? Also, what are these 'shadow' processes? In my research I am finding up to eight processes per personality type. Shouldn't there just be two if it's based on your N/S & T/F? ---------- Post added 08-09-2010 at 07:17 AM ---------- To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. This link has been of great help to me. I believe I understand the whole 'shadow' process thing. It's basically the opposite right? So if you are Ni your shadow would be Ne. But how is this useful? Are they simply giving the information so you can consider working on those aspects of your personality to develop them as well? Also, what if based on the definitions I feel I am equally Te and Ti? I don't really see much of a difference between the two. I'll consult the links you provided and hopefully find more answers.

This site is linked on the intro but I will help you pinpoint the two pages that will help you understand it best.

These are the 16 types and the function orderings.

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And this is the process used to determine the ordering.
For smoe reason this URL keeps failing to post correctly...
but if you click The 4-Letter Type Code on the left you will see it.

Every INTJ has the same ordering in terms of what the definition of an INTJ is.

Ni Te Si Fe Ne Ti Se Fi

What changes from INTJ to INTJ is the % of each and how well they use them.

Yes the last 4 are your shadow processes. They generally come out under times of stress and unexpectedly. If they are underdeveloped, they can come out in negative ways. Remember we use all 8 functions, just not as well as the first two.

[dontmesswithme]

You will not necessarily use those functions -- Ni Te Fi Se -- in that exact order. You should research what your particular order of functions is, and how strong each function is for you. I have discovered that although I am definitely an INFP, my dominant function is Ni. In fact, instead of my functions being Fi Ne Si Te, they are Ni Ne Fi Se. But I'm still an INFP. It's very interesting to learn these things about yourself. Your temperament also has a lot to do with your overall personality, and it would be worth your while to nail down your enneagram. It takes a while to figure these things out and this forum is a great place to help you with that.

Read the profile descriptions of all the different types. When reading profile descriptions of INFJ's, for example, none of it really resonates with me. Same with the descriptions for ENFP's (I'm way too introverted to be an ENFP anyway) and INTJ's. But whenever I read profile descriptions for INFP's, I find myself saying "Oh my God, that is so me!" *chuckles* Also, I've read on this forum several times that INTJ's and ISTP's are often mistaken for one another. You could be another type altogether, you never know.

I also think it's very important to develop and strengthen your lesser functions. For example, INFP's usually have way too much Fi and should work on their other functions to tone that down, and INTJ's usually need to strengthen their Fi to become more well-rounded (INTJ's with good Fi are endearing).

[Pragmatist]

Originally Posted by Necrosis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This site is linked on the intro but I will help you pinpoint the two pages that will help you understand it best. These are the 16 types and the function orderings. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. And this is the process used to determine the ordering. For smoe reason this URL keeps failing to post correctly... but if you click The 4-Letter Type Code on the left you will see it. Every INTJ has the same ordering in terms of what the definition of an INTJ is. Ni Te Si Fe Ne Ti Se Fi What changes from INTJ to INTJ is the % of each and how well they use them. Yes the last 4 are your shadow processes. They generally come out under times of stress and unexpectedly. If they are underdeveloped, they can come out in negative ways. Remember we use all 8 functions, just not as well as the first two.

That was simple a FANTASTIC resource with simple and to the point explanations. Thank you so much!

You mentioned that there is a % of each process and how well you use them. How do I find out my %? Is there a separate test for this or is it just guess work on my part?

So then the shadow parts are kind of like the weak links in our chain, if we don't develop them we will be subject to that weakness in times when they must be applied. Makes sense.

Anyone have any match theories for dating based on the cognitive processes? Seems INFJ may be an interesting combination. Ni Fe Ti Se to our Ni Te Si Fe. They're identical with different emphasis and only a minor difference in Ti/Te.

---------- Post added 08-09-2010 at 08:15 AM ----------

Originally Posted by dontmesswithme To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You will not necessarily use those functions -- Ni Te Fi Se -- in that exact order. You should research what your particular order of functions is, and how strong each function is for you. I have discovered that although I am definitely an INFP, my dominant function is Ni. In fact, instead of my functions being Fi Ne Si Te, they are Ni Ne Fi Se. But I'm still an INFP. It's very interesting to learn these things about yourself. Your temperament also has a lot to do with your overall personality, and it would be worth your while to nail down your enneagram. It takes a while to figure these things out and this forum is a great place to help you with that. Read the profile descriptions of all the different types. When reading profile descriptions of INFJ's, for example, none of it really resonates with me. Same with the descriptions for ENFP's (I'm way too introverted to be an ENFP anyway) and INTJ's. But whenever I read profile descriptions for INFP's, I find myself saying "Oh my God, that is so me!" *chuckles* Also, I've read on this forum several times that INTJ's and ISTP's are often mistaken for one another. You could be another type altogether, you never know. I also think it's very important to develop and strengthen your lesser functions. For example, INFP's usually have way too much Fi and should work on their other functions to tone that down, and INTJ's usually need to strengthen their Fi to become more well-rounded (INTJ's with good Fi are endearing).

How do you feel the Enneagram interacts with MBTI? Especially the cognitive processes.

So you're advocating using a list of the cognitive processes in order to discern your own type manually? Or did I completely misunderstand?

[Functianalyst]

	Originally Posted by dontmesswithme To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You will not necessarily use those functions -- Ni Te Fi Se -- in that exact order. You should research what your particular order of functions is, and how strong each function is for you. I have discovered that although I am definitely an INFP, my dominant function is Ni. In fact, instead of my functions being Fi Ne Si Te, they are Ni Ne Fi Se. But I'm still an INFP.

Uh no...., INFPs (at least by MBTI standards) will always dominate with Fi, otherwise you're not INFP. If you dominate with Ni you can only be INJ. The principles do not change since MBT developed their codes based on Jung's work. Always with no exception:

Ti = ITPs
Ni = INJs
Fi = IFPs
Si = ISJs

Te = ETJs
Ne = ENPs
Fe = EFJs
Se = ESPs

You are correct that we will not use the four functions alluded to in that order or with equal intensity. Depending on the strength of one's attitude, it's easy to use the tertiary function, however that creates an imbalance. Jung says that the auxiliary function is inferior to the more differentiated dominant function, but the auxiliary is always present. It is not to say you do not use Ni-Ne-Fi-Se, but Jung's principle of how the functions should work are clear:

Experience shows that the secondary function is always one whose nature is different from, though not antagonistic to, the leading function : thus, for example, thinking, as primary function, can readily pair with intuition as auxiliary, or indeed equally well with sensation, but, as already observed, never with feeling. Neither intuition nor sensation are antagonistic to thinking, i.e. they have not to be unconditionally excluded, since they are not, like feeling, of similar nature, though of opposite purpose, to thinking -- for as a judging function feeling successfully competes with thinking -- but are functions of perception, affording welcome assistance to thought. ……. For all the types appearing in practice, the principle holds good that besides the conscious main function there is also a relatively unconscious, auxiliary function which is in every respect different from the nature of the main function. From these combinations well-known pictures arise, the practical intellect for instance paired with sensation (Ti-Se), the speculative intellect breaking through [p. 516] with intuition (Ti-Ne), the artistic intuition which selects and presents its images by means of feeling judgment (Ni-Fe), the philosophical intuition which, in league with a vigorous intellect, translates its vision into the sphere of comprehensible thought, and so forth (Ni-Te).

I added the cognitive function pairings in case there was confusion on which type Jung was alluding to. Jung goes on further to say:

A grouping of the unconscious functions also takes place in accordance with the relationship of the conscious functions. Thus, for instance, an unconscious intuitive feeling attitude may correspond with a conscious practical intellect, whereby the function of feeling suffers a relatively stronger inhibition than intuition. This peculiarity, however, is of interest only for one who is concerned with the practical psychological treatment of such cases.

In other words Ni-Fe or Ne-Fi can subordinate to Ti-Se or Te-Si, thus the make-up of Ti-Se-Ni-Fe (ISTP) or Te-Si-Ne-Fi (ESTJ). Someone having that much intuiting as you self-proclaim would make for a very unstable person since the Se is too far removed to ground the flightiness of intuition. But more importantly you have no use of the thinking function, ergo no ability at using logic or making sound judgments.

[Pragmatist]

What is the meaning behind Dominant, Auxilliary, Tertiary and Inferior? Why are they in that order and what can we learn from those titles/roles?

How is a person with a Dominant Ni different from someone with a Tertiary Ni for example? Would they likely get along better or worse than someone else also with a Dominant Ni?

[dontmesswithme]

@Functionalyst: What about people who do not fit the molds? What is your opinion on sub-types? Does the MBTI give weight to this possibility, that I am not aware of? Do you think socionics is horse manure? (I'm not a huge fan of socionics, although I admit I'm not terribly knowledgeable about it. It's kind of interesting.) According to socionics an INFP who leads with Ni is INFP-Ni subtype. Perhaps we're all subtypes to some extent.

You're right in that I have almost no use of the thinking functions. I've been saying for years that I am a walking instinct, and now I have an idea as to why. I'm all gut instinct. I kinda like it, honestly, I've been this way since early childhood. I'm not unstable, though. I do alright. I do want to develop my thinking functions more, but only to please other people, be more organised, and be better at debating things (I literally can't argue, I can't handle it.) I like myself now, whereas I used to think I was a freak. Maybe I am a freak and I just don't care anymore.

[Mavster]

	Originally Posted by dontmesswithme To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You will not necessarily use those functions -- Ni Te Fi Se -- in that exact order. You should research what your particular order of functions is, and how strong each function is for you. I have discovered that although I am definitely an INFP, my dominant function is Ni. In fact, instead of my functions being Fi Ne Si Te, they are Ni Ne Fi Se. But I'm still an INFP...

dontmesswithme, I think you're messing up the whole idea. INFP can not use Ni consciously. You might consider retyping.

Cracking INTJ personality: Ni Te Fi Se in this order and forget about those inaccessible "shadow functions" (the unconscious) because we don't have control over them altogether.

The order is maintained but does not necessitate that development occurs in same order except for the dominant (it's what the type is all about).

The variation comes mainly from the next-to-develop function (secondary or tertiary) and the shadow which is derived mainly and in a complicated way from the least developed ("the inferior" which is incessantly suppressed by dominant).

You can see how the dominant is 'hogging' conscious mind and suppressing the inferior in the same time, that leaves the next chance of development, which occurs as we grow, for either secondary or tertiary.

Example:

Ni

Te

Fi (may be due to nurturing or environmental influence)

Se (may be I should give it a color to point to the shadow)

PS: this INTJ may be confused with INFP due to apparent Fi and less actions (less developed extroverted judgment "Te"), can test as P.

[Functianalyst]

Originally Posted by dontmesswithme To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

@Functionalyst: What about people who do not fit the molds? What is your opinion on sub-types? Does the MBTI give weight to this possibility, that I am not aware of? Do you think socionics is horse manure? (I'm not a huge fan of socionics, although I admit I'm not terribly knowledgeable about it. It's kind of interesting.) According to socionics an INFP who leads with Ni is INFP-Ni subtype. Perhaps we're all subtypes to some extent.

There really are no molds per Jung. He refused to write type descriptions using combos of functions because he said the number would have to start at 256 and go up. MBT has put a limit on types when only writing of 16 and left it up to us to figure it out based on the limiting descriptions. Per Jung’s claim there would be a minimum of 16 sub-types for each type. It should be noted that other than the dominant function, the remaining functions such as the auxiliary, tertiary and so can fluctuate in how developed they may be. Each type will look different even to themselves since one may use Ni more than the next, one may have a strong use of Te, the next strong use of Fi. A fourth one may have developed their Se more than the other three. When you start combining these functions, considering the degree of use, the degree of attitude, the description of an INTJ will be limitless.

As for Socionics, they reverse the functions for introverting types (which is most likely the correct theory) to indicate that INFps dominate with a perceiving function (Ni) and INFjs dominate with a judging function (Fi). But you do know that INFP and INFp are completely different types? The former dominates with Fi and the latter with Ni.

Originally Posted by dontmesswithme To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You're right in that I have almost no use of the thinking functions. I've been saying for years that I am a walking instinct, and now I have an idea as to why. I'm all gut instinct. I kinda like it, honestly, I've been this way since early childhood. I'm not unstable, though. I do alright. I do want to develop my thinking functions more, but only to please other people, be more organised, and be better at debating things (I literally can't argue, I can't handle it.) I like myself now, whereas I used to think I was a freak. Maybe I am a freak and I just don't care anymore.

To the contrary you have it, otherwise how do you go through the day judging things outside of the self? Only Fe and Te can do that. Interesting you use the word instinct. I am not sure of your connotation, but Se users have instinct, Ne users have, well intuition. Many INTJs I have met, especially younger ones, claim they have no Se but show it in droves in their posts on other forums. I think what many believe is a certain function being used is not. You can test Ni-Ne all day long, but it does not mean you’re actually using it in everyday life.

[Pragmatist]

Originally Posted by Mavster To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

dontmesswithme, I think you're messing up the whole idea. INFP can not use Ni consciously. You might consider retyping. Cracking INTJ personality: Ni Te Fi Se in this order and forget about those inaccessible "shadow functions" (the unconscious) because we don't have control over them altogether. The order is maintained but does not necessitate that development occurs in same order except for the dominant (it's what the type is all about). The variation comes mainly from the next-to-develop function (secondary or tertiary) and the shadow which is derived mainly and in a complicated way from the least developed ("the inferior" which is incessantly suppressed by dominant). You can see how the dominant is 'hogging' conscious mind and suppressing the inferior in the same time, that leaves the next chance of development, which occurs as we grow, for either secondary or tertiary. Example: Ni Te Fi (may be due to nurturing or environmental influence) Se (may be I should give it a color to point to the shadow) PS: this INTJ may be confused with INFP due to apparent Fi and less actions (less developed extroverted judgment "Te"), can test as P.

This is very interesting. To what degree do the lesser functions actually apply and how should we interpret that application in the individual's personality? I'm assuming this will be slightly different for everyone, but obviously INTJ's aren't going to be Se dominant, right? So there is some systematic logic to it without having to go on individual basis.

We are Ni, Te, Fi, Se. How much does Se actually effect our personality given that it is the Inferior type? And when we review other types for things like compatability, how much weight should we put into each level (Dominant/Auxilliary/Tertiary/Inferior). If the Dominant functions match perfectly but the Tertiary and Inferior are horrible matches, does it matter?

Obviously this is strictly theory and I won't take anything you say to be your interpretation of fact. Just opinion based on experience.

[Mavster]

@Pragmatist, You won't be able to use Se the way Se dominants (ESXP) do.
Se dominant energizes by Se, you will be drained. It's like reflexive compared to voluntary orienting attention. Also your shadow is about Se which may manifest during stress as overdoing or obsession about details.

Auxiliary and tertiary functions are on the warpath. Tertiary function often tries to keep a tight rein on auxiliary.

[Pragmatist]

Originally Posted by Mavster To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

@Pragmatist, You won't be able to use Se the way Se dominants (ESXP) do. Se dominant energizes by Se, you will be drained. It's like reflexive compared to voluntary orienting attention. Also your shadow is about Se which may manifest during stress as overdoing or obsession about details. Auxiliary and tertiary functions are on the warpath. Tertiary function often tries to keep a tight rein on auxiliary.

I'm not sure I grasped a lot of that. Let's review shall we?

I don't use Se the way ESXP does. Why not? What role does Se play for me compared to them?

So our Inferior functions are not part of our personality so much as a weakness? Is that why Se drains me? Is this true just with Se for INTJ's or true for Inferior processes for all types? Does that mean we should develop Se or stay away from it because it's not complimentary to our nature?

What do you mean by "your shadow is about Se", how so? ?

So in all or most types Auxilliary being your second strongest process is constantly having to defend itself against Tertiary which is your third strongest and wants to control the Auxilliary function? Is there a general approach that helps one control and win this 'inner battle'? Anything to look out for? Once again, is this true for all types or just INTJ's?

[Functianalyst]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This is very interesting. To what degree do the lesser functions actually apply and how should we interpret that application in the individual's personality? I'm assuming this will be slightly different for everyone, but obviously INTJ's aren't going to be Se dominant, right? So there is some systematic logic to it without having to go on individual basis. We are Ni, Te, Fi, Se. How much does Se actually effect our personality given that it is the Inferior type? And when we review other types for things like compatability, how much weight should we put into each level (Dominant/Auxilliary/Tertiary/Inferior). If the Dominant functions match perfectly but the Tertiary and Inferior are horrible matches, does it matter? Obviously this is strictly theory and I won't take anything you say to be your interpretation of fact. Just opinion based on experience.

Originally Posted by Mavster To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

@Pragmatist, You won't be able to use Se the way Se dominants (ESXP) do. Se dominant energizes by Se, you will be drained. It's like reflexive compared to voluntary orienting attention. Also your shadow is about Se which may manifest during stress as overdoing or obsession about details. Auxiliary and tertiary functions are on the warpath. Tertiary function often tries to keep a tight rein on auxiliary.

To the contrary and back to my example of speaking to other INTJs, on other forums and maybe here. For some reason people assume they have little or no use of their tertiary and inferior functions. You must have use of it to balance Ni. Otherwise, Ni runs amuck and the user can’t grow. You can check out personalitypage.com under why each type precludes growth when allowing their dominant function to rule exclusively. In looking at the principles of type, there is a system of how the functions work for each type. In this case Ni must have some use of Se, Fi has to be able to tone down Te. No other functions can neutralize Ni or Te, but their opposites. That is why Dontmesswithme’s claim of using Ni-Ne-Fi-Se can’t work. Only Si can neutralize Ne.

Se underdeveloped in the INJ type may give them a feeling of being overwhelmed with tangible realities of life are considered. Se anchors Ni in reality. Without good use of Se, INJs would be incapable of transforming their visions into reality. INJs seek out data about what is really going on so they can find ways to implement their visions. They start paying closer attention to the physical world and their physical selves. Any sort of exercising is Se. Contrary to what some may be thinking, Te and Fe does not take in information. Those functions only help INJs establish order and structure, and to organize. It’s Se that you’re using anytime you are taking in information outside of the self. Again many INTJs believe they do not use Se well, but that is the function you are using to take in the facts about type theory. As for Fi, people confuse the function with Fe. Fi does not consider others, instead it is the function used to consider things of importance to the user. Being a dominant Ti type, I have very little use of my Fi but I have Fe as my fourth function (I think that calling it inferior is a misnomer). Because of this I do take other people into consideration when making a decision, but keep very important things to myself. In fact I jokingly tell people who apologize for something that may violate their values, that I have no ego. My values are less important than my ruling principles, which is what I use instead of Fi.

[floramacivor]

	Originally Posted by Mavster To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You won't be able to use Se the way Se dominants (ESXP) do. Se dominant energizes by Se, you will be drained. It's like reflexive compared to voluntary orienting attention.

Then why do people say that all types need to work on their other functions and learn to be good at them in order to be balanced and understand/relate to others?

I've read N-types complaining that S-types don't "get" them, and people jump and say either, "The S-type needs to work on their N functions," and/or, "You, as an N-type, need to work to develop your S to get along," because all people have all eight functions and can and should develop them in order to be balanced.

So, which is it? Are we to use MBTI only in order to identify our weaknesses and work on them, or something else?

[Pragmatist]

Originally Posted by Functianalyst To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To the contrary and back to my example of speaking to other INTJs, on other forums and maybe here. For some reason people assume they have little or no use of their tertiary and inferior functions. You must have use of it to balance Ni. Otherwise, Ni runs amuck and the user can’t grow. You can check out personalitypage.com under why each type precludes growth when allowing their dominant function to rule exclusively. In looking at the principles of type, there is a system of how the functions work for each type. In this case Ni must have some use of Se, Fi has to be able to tone down Te. No other functions can neutralize Ni or Te, but their opposites. That is why Dontmesswithme’s claim of using Ni-Ne-Fi-Se can’t work. Only Si can neutralize Ne. Se underdeveloped in the INJ type may give them a feeling of being overwhelmed with tangible realities of life are considered. Se anchors Ni in reality. Without good use of Se, INJs would be incapable of transforming their visions into reality. INJs seek out data about what is really going on so they can find ways to implement their visions. They start paying closer attention to the physical world and their physical selves. Any sort of exercising is Se. Contrary to what some may be thinking, Te and Fe does not take in information. Those functions only help INJs establish order and structure, and to organize. It’s Se that you’re using anytime you are taking in information outside of the self. Again many INTJs believe they do not use Se well, but that is the function you are using to take in the facts about type theory. As for Fi, people confuse the function with Fe. Fi does not consider others, instead it is the function used to consider things of importance to the user. Being a dominant Ti type, I have very little use of my Fi but I have Fe as my fourth function (I think that calling it inferior is a misnomer). Because of this I do take other people into consideration when making a decision, but keep very important things to myself. In fact I jokingly tell people who apologize for something that may violate their values, that I have no ego. My values are less important than my ruling principles, which is what I use instead of Fi.

So you're saying that the two weaker functions are submissive to the two dominant functions. Specifically as their opposite. So with an INTJ, you have Ni at the top and Se at the bottom. They balance each other out. Then you have Te balanced by Fi in the middle. If you think externally then you feel internally. If you are internally intuitive, then you are collecting external data. Very good, this makes absolute sense to me.

In terms of Te and Fe not taking in information. Would you say it's safe to define S and N as where we get our information from and T and F as how we apply that information? As a balance, if we are Ni and our inferior is Se, does that mean we gather information from both Ni and Se but we prefer Ni or is there a different more elaborate relationship here?

You are very knowledgeable, thank you very much for your input!
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---------- Post added 08-10-2010 at 10:56 AM ----------

Originally Posted by floramacivor To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Then why do people say that all types need to work on their other functions and learn to be good at them in order to be balanced and understand/relate to others? I've read N-types complaining that S-types don't "get" them, and people jump and say either, "The S-type needs to work on their N functions," and/or, "You, as an N-type, need to work to develop your S to get along," because all people have all eight functions and can and should develop them in order to be balanced. So, which is it? Are we to use MBTI only in order to identify our weaknesses and work on them, or something else?

On the theory of balancing by upgrading your weaker functions, I wonder, are the MBTI types literally a result of our strengths and weaknesses ( i.e. imbalance ) and would there be a sort of 'perfect' or 'ultimate' MBTI once we balanced everything out. Or is it truly possible to balance? Can we change if we start to work on one thing or another too much (i.e. an INTJ working on Se a lot) or will our natural personality prevent us from being able to handle too much of that type of stimulus?

[Functianalyst]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

So you're saying that the two weaker functions are submissive to the two dominant functions. Specifically as their opposite. So with an INTJ, you have Ni at the top and Se at the bottom. They balance each other out. Then you have Te balanced by Fi in the middle. If you think externally then you feel internally. If you are internally intuitive, then you are collecting external data. Very good, this makes absolute sense to me.

Yes, that is how the function order works which is why when we throw in another function arbitrarily, we have to throw in their opposite as well since that is the only function that can neutralize the other.

	Originally Posted by Pragmatist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In terms of Te and Fe not taking in information. Would you say it's safe to define S and N as where we get our information from and T and F as how we apply that information? As a balance, if we are Ni and our inferior is Se, does that mean we gather information from both Ni and Se but we prefer Ni or is there a different more elaborate relationship here?

Correct again on the judging functions. As for the balance of Ni-Se, a simple rule of thumb is that if you allude to an introverting function that will be something that is always internal, and the extraverting functions will always focus on something outside the self. Gathering information from an external source can only be done by using Se and Ne. Si and Ni don’t gather information instead producing it from within. The information we get from using Si and Ni is not based on actual experience.

[Pragmatist]

Originally Posted by Functianalyst To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Yes, that is how the function order works which is why when we throw in another function arbitrarily, we have to throw in their opposite as well since that is the only function that can neutralize the other. Correct again on the judging functions. As for the balance of Ni-Se, a simple rule of thumb is that if you allude to an introverting function that will be something that is always internal, and the extraverting functions will always focus on something outside the self. Gathering information from an external source can only be done by using Se and Ne. Si and Ni don’t gather information instead producing it from within. The information we get from using Si and Ni is not based on actual experience.

Hm. Neat. So then Ni and Si are more rational while Ne and Se are more empirical? Would this be a good way to explain it?

What sort of examples could you give of using your Se to balance your Ni? Any exercises one can do to help strengthen their weak links?

[Mavster]

	Originally Posted by Pragmatist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't use Se the way ESXP does. Why not? What role does Se play for me compared to them?

The natural course is to develop functions according to their order in a given type. Functions are developed through using. Dominant is used effortlessly, using it even energizes. Auxiliary is used with more effort than dominant and so on. So you energize by using the upper function/s to be expended at lower ones so as to develop them. We push towards a full functioning personality. If this is perfectly attained (imaginary state) then INTJ, ESFP, ENTJ and ISFP are virtually identical personalities.

	So our Inferior functions are not part of our personality so much as a weakness?

answered with the above lines.

	Is that why Se drains me? Is this true just with Se for INTJ's or true for Inferior processes for all types? Does that mean we should develop Se or stay away from it because it's not complimentary to our nature? What do you mean by "your shadow is about Se", how so? ?

Shadow is how you behave in relation to your 'undeveloped' inferior (badly, sure). Its badness lessens with developing inferior (which takes the most effort and time as aforementioned).

	So in all or most types Auxilliary being your second strongest process is constantly having to defend itself against Tertiary which is your third strongest and wants to control the Auxilliary function? Is there a general approach that helps one control and win this 'inner battle'? Anything to look out for? Once again, is this true for all types or just INTJ's?

Yes. All types have auxiliary which is antagonistic to their tertiary (Te Fi/Fe Ti/Ne Si/Se Ni).
For INTJ, it's a battle of 'do something' vs 'it's not me or it would mar my soul'. Check Lenore exegesis wiki for tertiary temptation.

INTJ perceives through Ni and Se (vision and mere reality) judges with Te and Fi (object laws and principles and inner values). INTJ prioritizes his vision (Ni) over reality so he selectively scans his environment with Se for its own sake. When Se is more developed, it will not just serve as a pawn for Ni but will provide more about the world. The aim is to have functions 'click' with each other.

	Originally Posted by floramacivor To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Then why do people say that all types need to work on their other functions and learn to be good at them in order to be balanced and understand/relate to others?

I think it's already answered in this post.

I've read N-types complaining that S-types don't "get" them, and people jump and say either, "The S-type needs to work on their N functions," and/or, "You, as an N-type, need to work to develop your S to get along," because all people have all eight functions and can and should develop them in order to be balanced. So, which is it? Are we to use MBTI only in order to identify our weaknesses and work on them, or something else?

After having the 4 conscious functions developed, there will be more to learn about from people who are able to use what we can't, what deeply buried in the unconscious.
for INTJ is ENTP, though ENFPs are the perfect love match. In the last Ni is complemented by Ne and vice versa.

[Solaris]

I don't particularly agree with any of that love match crap based on type. It caters to gender stereotyping the 16 types and, therefore, fails.

[Pragmatist]

	Originally Posted by Mavster
	So you energize by using the upper function/s to be expended at lower ones so as to develop them.

One of the coolest interpretations of MBTI I've ever heard.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Well said.

If this is how the upper interacts with the lower, how do the Dominant and Auxilliary functions interact with each other?

	Shadow is how you behave in relation to your 'undeveloped' inferior (badly, sure). Its badness lessens with developing inferior (which takes the most effort and time as aforementioned).

Wait, I was understanding Shadow to be the mirror cognitive processes. So for example Ni/Te/Fi/Se have a shadow of Ne/Ti/Fe/Si. Are you talking about a different shadow? It sounds like you're referring to the Fi/Se as shadow of the Ni/Te.

	INTJ perceives through Ni and Se (vision and mere reality) judges with Te and Fi (object laws and principles and inner values). INTJ prioritizes his vision (Ni) over reality so he selectively scans his environment with Se for its own sake. When Se is more developed, it will not just serve as a pawn for Ni but will provide more about the world. The aim is to have functions 'click' with each other.

How can we perceive simultaneously through two different functions? Obviously we all use all of ours senses, our emotions and our mind. But in respect to MBTI how can I be Ni and Se at the same time? If Se just means collecting external data from the physical world, who doesn't do that? So what is the more in depth explanation of how they work together?

Thank you for your post! Very informative!

[Mavster]

	Originally Posted by Pragmatist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If this is how the upper interacts with the lower, how do the Dominant and Auxilliary functions interact with each other?

Let's review functions attitude (Introverted vs Extroverted functions):
Introverted means intensive(deep)... and of course subjective.
Extroverted means extensive and objective.

Every type has 2 pairs of functions, Je with Pi and Pe with Ji. Why it's not Je with Pe or Pi with Ji?
because in order to have a normal* functioning balanced personality, you will need to:
-apply without (Te) or with (Fe) emotional involvement your vision (Ni) or remembered experience (Si), a pair.
-make judgment based on values (Fi) or logic (Ti) upon experiencing the world of facts (Se) or possibilities (Ne), the other pair.


the upper pair (dominant and auxiliary) determines the lifestyle (J/P) and taking functions quality (T/F, N/S) into account, it determines also your strong suit.
Je with Pi is J personality
Pe with Ji is P personality

Swapping will determine whether someone is introverted or extroverted and also which function rules and which serves (don't forget to swap the lower pair too).

	Wait, I was understanding Shadow to be the mirror cognitive processes. So for example Ni/Te/Fi/Se have a shadow of Ne/Ti/Fe/Si. Are you talking about a different shadow? It sounds like you're referring to the Fi/Se as shadow of the Ni/Te.

Though some say shadow is the mirror, majority are with shadow derived from inferior.

	How can we perceive simultaneously through two different functions? Obviously we all use all of ours senses, our emotions and our mind. But in respect to MBTI how can I be Ni and Se at the same time? If Se just means collecting external data from the physical world, who doesn't do that? So what is the more in depth explanation of how they work together?

I think now you know it's not simultaneous use. This holds true for any function and its antagonist, whether perceptive or judging.

*Abnormality manifests when say, tertiary develop before secondary, e.g, Ni-Fi loop in INTJ.
He hopelessly tries to make judgment from his own visions which are far (even growing farther) from reality (Te application and Se perception).

[Functianalyst]

	Originally Posted by Mavster To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think now you know it's not simultaneous use. This holds true for any function and its antagonist, whether perceptive or judging. *Abnormality manifests when say, tertiary develop before secondary, e.g, Ni-Fi loop in INTJ.

I am in agreement with everything you have said Mavster, except the two statements above. The first is not necessarily a disagreement but the word “antagonistic” is a bit harsh. Although I do not have “Gifts Differing” in front of me, Myers-Briggs says the auxiliary function is different from, but not antagonistic to, the dominant function. Jung says:

	Naturally only those functions can appear as auxiliary whose nature is not opposed to the leading function. For instance, feeling can never act as the second function by the side of thinking, because its nature stands in too strong a contrast to thinking. Thinking, if it is to be real thinking and true to its own principle, must scrupulously exclude feeling.

As for the second notion of the so-called dom-tert loop the more I study the auxiliary and tertiary positions the more I am in disagreement that this theory is correct. Granted development of the auxiliary is always encouraged to create balance, but there is no indication that those of us who prefer to use our tertiary instead of our auxiliary function are somehow unhealthy.

I posted somewhere earlier that the Psychological Type Association believes that based on Jung’s work we may develop the auxiliary or the tertiary. I am not sure at this point as to whether the tertiary function can actually be more developed than the auxiliary function. Contrary to claims we can and do use functions in combination or in tandem (i.e., Ni-Te, Ti-Se, etc.). The only functions that cannot be used simultaneously, instead alternately are those with the same attitude (i.e., Ni-Fi, Ti-Ni).